Club Obi Wan

like i mentioned previously, the design of my raiders hat block that ohio is building has been based on my 360 hat block that i initially started with.....today i got bored so i started modifying my old hat block to closer emulate what i sent to ohio jones. when i say 'modifying' i mean taking a wood rasp to the sucker and shredding alot of wood around the transitions.

i threw my test body on her and ripped her off once the felt formed to it. she was still a little damp hence some of the 'cairo rippling' near the bottom of the 'test subject'. please disregard those as the only reason why i did this was to test my theory on the design and to see how it would bash in the crown portion.

the results were very promising to say the least. i got a very nice profile arc:



as per:



and some very nice front and back camel humps whilst retaining that nice straight raiders stovepipe:





AND





now i am extremely keen on throwing a real hat body on this modified block.......but i've already seen what ohio has built me and i think it will put this block to shame. i'm gonna save that real hat body for the new block. regardless, i think i speced the right shape to ohio based on my findings tonight.

so ohio buddy, get that piece of art shipped up and i'll make something that will hopefully even impress the 'top guns' here .........i believe i am very close

G,

I think you are going to flip out on this block. I will tell you and anyone who does any sanding....Festool Rotex. It made the job easier...but I will say...you tested me good. Still wished I knew what it looked like....the blindfold wouldnt allow me to see....but she felt really, really good.


I will PM you in the morning buddy.

Pics look great......thats a sweet bash man!

I will tell you and anyone who does any sanding....Festool Rotex. It made the job easier...

i have a makeshift rotex-like sanding rig using an angle drill, a bit of rod, some stiff rubber, velcro and disc's of sand paper. so much easier than a rasp.

i love the bash G. i can't wait to see a hat from the new block.

It looks very good G, nice comparison pictures.

It's curious to notice that in the last back shot you can see Ford's head pushing the center dent, also that the brim bends upwards like the hat he wears when he's on the front of the truck but that could be a coincidence.

Erri wrote:
It's curious to notice that in the last back shot you can see Ford's head pushing the center dent.

I have searched for Ford's head putting a bump in the dent, couldn't find one.. Is that happening here, or is that a shadow cast by the camel hump on the right? ...So, G, is this still a 360 block all around for the first few inches? Then, at what height do you start the transition? .... But that's the amazing thing to me about Ford's head... I believe the front is 4 1/2 in., back 3 1/2 in. (Viewed from the side), but he can still get an inch plus deep top dent without his head putting a bump in it. I have to live with the bump I get... Putting an inch + dent in a 5 inch 360 open crown gives you rounded camel humps, (which I think is is what you are looking for) but many would have to live with a bump in the top crease to live with the Raiders proportions.. Whether I'm right about that or not, your new hat looks good!

It doesn't look like a shadow to me. I honstly believe it's a bump from his head. Perhaps he pushed the hat too low. I don't know a lot about precise heights and stuff like that but it is another evidence that the hat wasn't as tall as people used to think (and some perhaps still do). I remember someone saying that if the hat was that low (5.5) they would get a bump on the hat from the head pushing the felt... well there you go

Erri wrote: I honstly believe it's a bump from his head.

I just looked at that scene in the movie. I can't tell. But Ford's ears almost touch the brim of the Raiders hat. To get a bump that large, I think his ears would be folded out 90 degrees!

That's true, perhaps the back dent has been pushed too low. Or else, the hat had been pushed too low then re-adjusted but the felt kept the bump

It's a tough call but I think it might be a camel hump shadow rather than his head. But like I said it's tough to call.

G, hat looks great though man! Really nice.

LJ

It could also be a shadow or a stain on the hat. If you look really close there is another darker spot on the felt on the right side of the hat just like the one on top.

3thoubucks wrote:G is this still a 360 block all around for the first few inches? Then, at what height do you start the transition? .... But that's the amazing thing to me about Ford's head... I believe the front is 4 1/2 in., back 3 1/2 in. (Viewed from the side), but he can still get an inch plus deep top dent without his head putting a bump in it. I have to live with the bump I get... Putting an inch + dent in a 5 inch 360 open crown gives you rounded camel humps, (which I think is is what you are looking for) but many would have to live with a bump in the top crease to live with the Raiders proportions.. Whether I'm right about that or not, your new hat looks good!

that's about the right place where the transitions break dramatically, but i've insisted on shaving the block below that by a hair......

{G}: ohio, you're about 1/32" off below what i asked for the transition break on the front. i've compared the blurry pics you sent me to the blueprint i've made.......you've taken way too much off!!!

{ohio}: all right.....another chunk of poplar down the drain....i'll get a new block made up...... [hangs up the phone: man, what a jerk!!!!]



just kidding. ohio jones is truly a professional in his craft. he knows more about creating a raiders block than lamode does imho. i can't believe he nailed the shape right. it is a very, very, very difficult shape to fab up unless you are really good with wood working. ohio prides himself in his work and it shows.....truly wonderful to deal with a gearhead that is a master woodmaker.

the block that i cannibalized is very, very rough and i think it would take alot of bashing on my end to hide some of the 'roughness'.

$3M, your shallow creases, i believe, are from the flat top of your winston block.....you need some dome brother, and pork pie-ing the top is not enough. the corners need to round in more to the top. i believe if you decrease the real estate of what is flat on your black by rounding the sides more into it, you'll get a deeper crease and camel humps that are less 'angled' and more rounded. i may be missing something in your manufacturing process so please correct me if i am wrong. i do know that a straight winston 360 block with just a 1/2" routered edge at the top will not work for me.

ok, I feel wierd ''criticizing'' Fedora's work but...

the side shot does not convince me at all. looking a raider's hat from the side, you can clearly see that the front crease is very tapered: yours shows a very straight pinch, it resembles more to the LC hat

Its not a straight on side shot.

Dave

Ok, I went to the shop, threw the hat on a block to simulate a head and this is what she looks like, on a head.



Definetely the kick back rooster comb here. Most of the shots we see of the Raiders fedora feature the kick back starting above the ribbon. As this one is. Fedora

Indy G,

The final touches are done....I did a little something extra for you....I am sure you will like it. You will have to look for it...but not hard.

I will be sending her your way tomorrow.

Cant wait to see what you pull off of this block!

Fedora wrote:Deleted thread killer.

steve.....there is nothing that you can post on my threads that would kill it imo. your comments have always been much appreciated because this is where i learn the craft

.....even if you wanted to post on my thread: what you bought at the grocery store.......i wouldn't mind at all my friend

Ohio Jones wrote:Indy G,

The final touches are done....I did a little something extra for you....I am sure you will like it. You will have to look for it...but not hard.

I will be sending her your way tomorrow.

Cant wait to see what you pull off of this block!

wooooohoooooo!!!! can't wait to see her in the flesh my friend.

now i'm kind of curious as to what you did

Indiana G wrote:

Ohio Jones wrote:Indy G,

The final touches are done....I did a little something extra for you....I am sure you will like it. You will have to look for it...but not hard.

I will be sending her your way tomorrow.

Cant wait to see what you pull off of this block!

wooooohoooooo!!!! can't wait to see her in the flesh my friend.

now i'm kind of curious as to what you did

What about the blindfolds then?

Regards, Geert

Indiana G wrote:

$3M, your shallow creases, i believe, are from the flat top of your winston block.....you need some dome brother, and pork pie-ing the top is not enough.

But my top crease isn't shallow G. it's 1 1/8 deep, which is very deep. that rounds the camel humps, but gives me a huge bump in the crease from my head, like the one that's "not really there?" that Eri saw. But, I'm just duplicating a hat Winston Churchhill wore- doesn't mean that's the Raiders hat, but it works for me..except for the bump, but I've got a tall head..

3thoubucks wrote:

Indiana G wrote:

$3M, your shallow creases, i believe, are from the flat top of your winston block.....you need some dome brother, and pork pie-ing the top is not enough.

But my top crease isn't shallow G. it's 1 1/8 deep, which is very deep. that rounds the camel humps, but gives me a huge bump in the crease from my head, like the one that's "not really there?" that Eri saw. But, I'm just duplicating a hat Winston Churchhill wore- doesn't mean that's the Raiders hat, but it works for me..except for the bump, but I've got a tall head..

you know how the SOC hat had that wierd crescent moon center crease....(kind of like the TOD village hat)....i always thought it was cause harrison's head was pushing the center crease out in the middle.

i have yet to test the dynamics of this new block out........but maybe....rubbing your head against the center crease is a necessary evil??? we'll see in a couple of days.

Indiana G wrote:
you know how the SOC hat had that wierd crescent moon center crease....

Do you mean it's not a straight line, but curves toward his right ear? I've noticed that, haven't heard it mentioned here before.. you think it's skirting around the tipp-top of his skull?

steve.....there is nothing that you can post on my threads that would kill it imo. your comments have always been much appreciated because this is where i learn the craft

Ah, great. I just did not want to buzz your thread.

You know, one thing that really makes it difficult to replicate "the block shape" is that several can pull off the look, pretty closely. I mean, several different blockshapes. Now, each one will NOT be perfect, if you are looking at very fine details, but for most fans, a particular blockshape looks close enough, or dead on to some. But when you start disecting each part of the hat, the faults, or weaknesses come through.

The Raiders fedora has a weird thing going on with it. From the front, in most shots, the hat looks to be a different blockshape, than it does when viewed from behind! Two different hats!! That is, it looks as if you took the hat and turned it around, you would not get the same look from the back, as you got from the front. This has bothered me for years! I think this is a hint as to the blockshape of this particular hat.

I own a collection of vintage blocks, with every dome represented, as well as taper, or lack thereof. None of these has ever lended the Raiders fedora with great accuracy. And that tells me the Raiders block is NOT what I have represented by those vintage blocks. Now admittedly to many, some of these blocks pull of the look very well, but only when you start to study the 360 shots of each hat does the weaknesses raise their ugly heads. I have never had trouble with the front of the hat, only the back, and the profile views. The top crease seems to be "short" in the Raiders fedora. Like it wants to stop before it hits the back of the hat. And this area is the troublesome part to me. There seems to be a very rounded radius on the back, and that becomes part of the side when you turn the hat. LLS's rendition of this block helps this area out, but I still see a little difference between that block and the film hat. Now, has shrinkage or taper actually affected this area, and that is the reason it is hard to copy? I don't have an answer. Could it simply be the difference in felt? I think it could be. Different felt moves differently, as you will discover, if you have not already.

Also, some photos from the film seem to show a very barrel shaped crown, and one that comes to mind is when Indy is moving through the woods to approach the temple entrance. It looks very straight sided, from the rear. Other photos from the film almost look like the crown has changed shape! This is one of the difficult points involved. You seem to nail one look, to find your block weak when compared to another look. And therein is what will drive a guy nuts.

The thing is, I don't see those big differences with the CS hat in the film. I can get all of those looks, just by the creases in the hat, as the creases were not consistent throughout Indy 4. One would think the same would apply to the Raiders fedora. But with the Raiders fedora, at times it looks to be a different blockshape to the hat. So, to me, either the hat shrunk some, or there were two different blocks in that film.

What comes to mind is the gray hat on the Nazi. It seems to be the same hat Ford wore on the plane, because in some photos, you can see where a tight front pinch had been, prior. But, you get a good profile shot of this hat on the Nazi, and it has quite a bit of front and back taper, in fact, looks remarkably similiar to the current Christy, in that area. My trouble is, I cannot get the brown Raiders look from this blockshape. Some of the taper does crease out, but it is still there when viewed from behind. And if you drop the back low, you get too much taper when compared to any of the film hats. And the top camel humps look "off".

To date the best results seem to involve an asymetrical block, like the two vintage HJs that I owned. The only trouble is, we never get to see the brown hat completely, or almost open crowned in the film. Or if you do, you don't get to see it from enough angles to really tell what is going on with the blockshape. We do get to see the gray almost open crowned though, and it looks very symetrical.

Oh, Indy G, on the pics you posted above, I notice the flat spot on the camel humps that comes from the radius being wrong. This comes from the radius being well rounded, or perhaps too rounded. So when you put in the top crease, it pulls the radius over and you get a flat spot. Marc's original Raiders block suffered from the same thing. Since I always tended to go with a tighter radius, this was never a problem on my blocks. I never got the flat spots. I look forward to seeing what your new block lends. There is still one important "look" that I have never seen on any hat, other than the Raiders fedora. And it involves the way the back 1/4 of the hat looks in certain scenes. There is something going on there that no one to date has ever nailed. And hence my 99.9 per cent approval of LLs's rendition of the block. The trouble is, I have never been able to figure that one out. It could just be the way a hat appears when filmed, and you would not notice it in 3 D. Fedora

Oh, Indy G, on the pics you posted above, I notice the flat spot on the camel humps that comes from the radius being wrong. This comes from the radius being well rounded, or perhaps too rounded. So when you put in the top crease, it pulls the radius over and you get a flat spot. Marc's original Raiders block suffered from the same thing. Since I always tended to go with a tighter radius, this was never a problem on my blocks. I never got the flat spots. I look forward to seeing what your new block lends.

thanks for lending your keen eye steve. you are right...there is some angularity in the camel humps. it's something that i use to manually bash out in my 360 stovepipe creations (or try to).....but this time i did not. i was testing out the back radius to see what the creased hat would look like from the profile. there are too many flat points and angled breaks in this block....something i'm hoping the new block will remedy......or else, i'll just bash it out ;-) ......would that be considered cheating?

Good show Indiana G,
You and Ohio are coming along well. I have studied that scene where the hat is pushing the top of the crown up. It is one of the many fine points I look at as well. As I watch the scene, you can see how the hat is tugged down on his head a little more than usual. (Happens to me all the time in a gun fight.) This causes it to push the crown out some. It can be done without your ears having to go horizontal. The brim is touching his ears. Most of all, though, is notice how the brim folds up in the rear as it brushes the collar on the jacket. Floppy. The hat has the crown pushed up, the brim flopping up and down, and the brim is riding on top his ears and yet the hat does not slide up off his head. Classic Raider's hat chacteristics. Soft and floppy.
Back on subject, though. You are working in the right direction. Trust me. I'm a surveyor. I know all about heading in the right direction.
Love this block/hat stuff!.
LLS

thanks LLS. you have been very kind with information both on and off the board. alot of how i designed this new block came from your insights. if i don't nail the raiders look with it, i know for sure i'll come close, just on how the block is shaped. and with that, i'll probably satisfied. i don't want my block to be a AB or LLS clone.....not at all. i'll let you guys perfect the shape........i'll be happy with my close-enuff.....which imo, is still leagues better than alot of higher end offerings out there ;-)

i'm expecting the block to come in today. i'll post a message with my initial takes of ohio's work.......from the pics he's sent me so far, i think it's already perfect

Asymmetrical is right. My first 2 blocks only differed in the dome and the round over. I had a hat blocked on each and the difference was in one it really threw a nasty taper into it. The crease made it worse and dropping the back made it into a dunce cap. I tweaked my block to get that blocky look and I think I did okay there.

Now after doing G's block.....things made more sense. I can finally see what you guys are seeing. Fortunately....or unfortunately depending on how you look at it....my business is picking up so I have to put the blocking on hold to make some $$$. I find myself thinking of blocks more than the task at hand on the job. I will get there though.

Indy G....I hope the block gets there and I hope you like it. I poured heart and soul into it. It was the toughest project I have done to date. It made the brim jack feel like a walk in the park. I know it will work....but if it doesn't do what you want....you know the deal dude.

oh i got it brother.........it looks so good, it's almost a shame to cover it with a hat body (see the other thread )

you can't yield a bad hat from this block....i don't think it can happen. i already know that it is superior to some of the hatblocks out there from the usual suspects....this indy hat will be unique and that is where the beauty lies.

i'm happy that work is picking up for you. hobbies can wait until the family is fed

Fedora wrote:

To date the best results seem to involve an asymetrical block, like the two vintage HJs that I owned.

You posted a pic of one of those open crowned in a Winston 360 thread Fedora. My second Akubra Bushman was a vintage one I bought on ebay. I'd guess it was from the late 70's early 80's. It had a front pinch and a teardrop bash. With the bashes popped out, the back was pretty untapered compared to the front. I think it's just from holding the bash for decades, not an asymetrical block? But I think the Raiders hat may have been a rebashed old hat to begin with, maybe one hanging around the Elstree studios. So using an asymetrical block might be a good idea, but not one I'm too concerned with, since a 360 stovepipe gives you a lot to work with.. I think the Raiders Hawaii hat, the one where Indy whips the Remington out of Baranca's hand, hat, has an obviously thicker felt, evident in the brim thickness in the closeup in that shot, and isn't in the same production range as the normal Raiders hat. ... yeah, the rear 1/4's are the thing to try and nail when everything else looks right..

I posted this on another thread, but it would be suited to go here as well. This is a asymtrical English block that I had in my vintage block collection. I only noticed it was not symetrical a short time ago.



This is a side view of this block and you can clearly see how the front and the back are NOT the same. This is the key of the Raiders fedora, IMHO.


This is a typical American blockshape. Notice it is entirely symetrical.




Fedora

It is very subtle. I could see where someone wouldn't even notice it. That would have been a walk in the park to make compared to Indy G's!

Fedora wrote: This is a asymtrical English block that I had in my vintage block collection.

Wow! That's remarkable Fedora ... unless it's a woman's hat block, then there's no limit to the weirdness of the shape. Still, I have to admit something like it could have been used. But- if my 360 block tapered in front, I be less likely to get deep front bashes and the channel under the ribbon in the front dent.

Fedora what size is that vintage British block?

Wow! That's remarkable Fedora ... unless it's a woman's hat block, then there's no limit to the weirdness of the shape. Still, I have to admit something like it could have been used. But- if my 360 block tapered in front, I be less likely to get deep front bashes and the channel under the ribbon in the front dent.

It is a man's hat block. The front of the block is straight up until it reaches the breaking point. The back has probably 3/8 of an inch taper and the radius on the back is totally different from the front. The vintage HJs I had were not this pronounced, i.e. front taper verses back taper, but it was definitely present.

I have never used the above block for a hat. I am curious as to what sort of hat it would lend, since the block is 6 1/2 inches tall!!! It doesn't match the vintage HJs, so it was used for another style of hat. Probably intended for a very deep top crease, and may have been a C Dent block as those tend to have a domey dome, as this one does.

But- if my 360 block tapered in front, I be less likely to get deep front bashes and the channel under the ribbon in the front dent.

Yes, the Raiders fedora was capable of producing the deep and defined front creases which makes one lean toward a very full block on the front of the hat. But that fullness doesn't seem to work on the back of the hat, or that has been my own experience. Seen from an oblique angle, the back of the Raiders fedora does not look full at all. There seems to be a different radius on the back of the hat, one that rolls over and gives you that particular look.

With that said, I think there was a little bit of taper on the front. Just enough so that you get the rake back on the front pinch as viewed from the side. But as we all probably know, the block guys, you can get this with taper, and without taper, depending upon where the breaking point is, and the radius used. The interplay of these components is critical.

My own experience tells me that several various blockshapes can yield decent looking Raider fedoras. But, unless you have it nailed, there are certain weaknesses in these hats. And for most fans, a particular block may be "close enough". My sickness has always been, close enough is not good enough. But I do know that we can see this hat with different eyes, and what one sees, the other cannot. So, there is a subjective attribute to all of this.

One thing is for sure though. If you compare the various offerings of the Raiders fedora today, to 8 years ago, we are very lucky to have all of the Raider hats for sale today. It was NOT always that way. And we can applaud the Indy fans for getting a closer, more accurate Raiders fedora. 3M$, you and I have been kicking this can for many years, and your work has been as intense as my own. We now have new guys digging the block, and only good things can come from it. I have no doubt they will build upon what we have done and surpass us eventually. As it should be. This really helps out this community, and I am very happy for it.

I still just have to think that an amount of shrinkage took place in the Raider film hats. It is the nature of rabbit to do so, in a fast pace. And this shrinkage complicates matters when trying to reverse engineer a block shape. That leads one to the film hats that look to be newer in appearance, like the one outside the temple. Plus, it is creased high which gives us a better look at the blockshape. From the start of the film, you get a shot of Indy from behind. The top crease is not deep, and you can see part of the side radius that starts out lower than my first rendition of this block. It started lower, and was a more gentle radius. The front creases pushed out this radius to get the straight sides we see in some of the film hats.

A final thought. When Bernie needed a gray hat, I recall his first remark was..... it does not have to look like the brown hat. You don't have to use the same block. Then he mentioned the "travel hat" as if Indy always travels in suit, with a gray hat. Spielberg apparently called it Indy's travel hat. Now, I am pre-assuming here, but I walked away from this with the idea that the gray hat in Raiders was not the same blockshape. But, understand, Bernie never said that it was not. The conversation just seemed to point that way, to me, at the time. The gray hat in Raiders looks dead on to the current Christy blockshape to me, or TLC hat. We even get to see a good shot of it with a very shallow top crease and from the side. It is a dead ringer, taperwise, front and back, to TLC fedora. But I could never get this front and back taper to lend the brown film hat. And I tried, and tried alot to do so because at first, I thought both hats shared the same blockshape. Today, I am sure they did not. I think they were totally different hats, and different blocks were used to make em'. Fedora

ok.......here's the finished results. i'm quite happy! much of this success is attributed to the fact that ohio will build you EXACTLY what you draw up. the pictures are a little fuzzy, but it shows the block shape design. the center crease is deep giving the nice camel humps and the transitions give them a nice curvature. i would put this hat as pretty darn freak'n close to the WOS hat (tall crowned, big humps).

the wierd thing about the shape is that its so good, it challenged my construction. ie - can't make an ugly hat from a perfect block. there were times i thought that i was kind of a hat 'hack' when finishing the hat as i wanted to do a really good job. when i finished the hat, i wasn't extremely happy with my own skills......then i thought about how well i did when i built my 'best-built' hat.......and i wasn't too far off. this one will do......it'll do nicely bear in mind the images are 'mirrored' ;-)









is it SA? i don't know.......i don't have anything to compare it to except photos......and i don't trust those ......sure feels about as 'indy' as my CS hat built by steve

I think it looks fantastic!

(You should put your toys away young man)

G,

I think it looks awesome! Your bashing is incredible. I only wish I could get my bashes to look like that. I am glad the block worked out well for you. I cant wait to see the Pecan body if you block it on that block...or what ever block you choose.

Very nice job! Hats off to you brother