Club Obi Wan

Pardon my ignorance but can anyone tell me where Indy keeps his Browning in Raiders of the Lost Ark? The holster I take it was for the Webly.....

In raiders Indy carried a smith and wesson .45 revolver in the holster and it is likely that he tucked the browning into his waist band.

He did not have the bag in that particular scene so it was not in there and the pockets on the jacket wouldn't be a very good place either - Too small and the pistol too heavy.

I'll buy that answer

That is what I had assumed too. I'ld forgotten he did not have his bag in that sceen. Thanks!

According to the 'Complete Making of Indiana Jones' book, apparently the gun switch was just a running joke between the prop master and continuity writer during the shoot. They kept switching guns when they felt like it, little knowing folks so many years later would be trying to make sense of it in 'real time'. There WAS no method to the madness.

Regards! Michaelson

That is a really cool bit there Michaelson. You really are the "Knower of things". I love hearing things like that. It is much better than hearing that the prop guys didn't know the difference.

If you ever get the chance to pick up the book, do so. It's worth every penny. I got my copy for Christmas from my youngest daughter (D.E.M. here) and wife. LOTS of little tidbits like that in there.

Regards! Michaelson

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Making-I ... 0345501292

Off topic, but reminds me in Young Frankenstein how Marty Feldman kept moving his hump from one shoulder to another until they figured it out and wrote that "joke" into the movie...

In "our" world, I'd say to come up with a "Indy universe" reason is yes, Indy had the gun tucked away, somehow knowing there was going to be a firefight and wanted a little more punch that just one six shooter. That way it nicely explains both guns. Now don't ask me about the MP40's and that they hadn't been invented yet as of 1936....

Prototypes?

Regards! Michaelson

The MP38 was out in ....well....1938...closer still

Michaelson wrote:If you ever get the chance to pick up the book, do so. It's worth every penny. I got my copy for Christmas from my youngest daughter (D.E.M. here) and wife. LOTS of little tidbits like that in there.

Regards! Michaelson

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Making-I ... 0345501292

Based on your suggestion, I just ordered one.

Just poked around a bit and found that there was a prototype called the MP36 ... it was similar in design to the MP38 and the MP40...

I've chosen to ignore the Inglis HP in that movie. You know, when he was originally packing his gear to leave the college and start the adventure, you see him throwing a 1917 revolver onto the bed, never an automatic. There really wouldn't be any place for him to carry the auto. Anyone who has carried a large auto 'Mexican'-style (in the waistband) knows that it's going to fall out at the first run, jump, crawl or whatever. I just can't see IJ dragging something like that around, considering all his other gear, and it clearly defies his obvious 'MO' of traveling light and moving fast. So, it's an anachronism and most likely a running joke on the set just as Michaelson stated.

Okay, so, why did I just buy a MK 1 No. 2 Inglis?????
Answer: I've wanted an Inglis for a long time, and I just happen to have an old HP military holster.

I guess if you need an explanation for it that holds water, you could say he picked it up off the floor after emptying the 1917, or maybe instead of using it, and just left it at the Raven. This was pretty much the consensus a while back when it was discussed.

Yes, but he has the HP again at the end of the film on Katanga's ship...

Like they say - 'It's only a movie' - and anything can happen in Neverland. A real-life IJ would never have carried two different kinds of guns in different calibers. Even a 1911 would be out of the question and that uses the same ammo as the 1917.

I don't think a 1911 for Indy would be that farfetched. Makes sense out in the field if your backup weapon is in the same caliber. I believe a lot of the old west rifles and carbines were made to chamber handgun cartridges so the owner wouldn't have to worry about carrying a second box of a different caliber when out in the middle of nowhere. ( at least, that's what I've seen on the History Channel! )

191145 wrote:Like they say - 'It's only a movie' - and anything can happen in Neverland. A real-life IJ would never have carried two different kinds of guns in different calibers. Even a 1911 would be out of the question and that uses the same ammo as the 1917.

Actually I am sure we have all seen the concept art of Indy jumping on the Truck from the horse holding the 1911. The holster that is pictured is the one for the 1911 as well. I am sure I read other discussions where someone said the blank ammo was more readily available for the Browning and since it looked close to the 1911 they used that one. Again, where it was actually kept, I think the belt makes sense at least when he goes into the bar. Since he probably didn't expect to run and jump I am sure he thought it would be fine. He definately has the same gun later on the tramp steamer as mentioned here already. Picking up the gun off the floor doesn't make too much sense to me since the gun fight happens pretty fast and we never see him bend over to pick anything up. I think, if we needed an explanation I think 2 make sense to me. He could have purchased it before he left the US - yes we see him pack his bag but who is to say the next day - before boarding the plane, since he knew he was going into danger, (and since at the beginning of the movie he loses one gun) he decides he needs another gun to take with him and stops to get one. I remember reading in a book about the Flying Tigers how one pilot stopped at a sporting goods store and bought 3 guns to take with him to China. I would expect Indy had more things to buy for his trip besides what we see him pack. The other thought is that perhaps he bought it when he landed in Nepal at a local market. There must have been plenty of places to pick up that stuff near the airport.
Just my 2 cents
best
Canada

Hey Canada Jones,

I don't wish to be too discouaging, but the Browning HP just went into production in 1935. It was adopted by the Belgian military as their service pistol. I doubt anyone could "just pick one up" in Nepal or anywhere else for that matter in 1936. Futher, Indy's gun was an Inglis Hi Power, not manuactered until 1944 in Canada. Just think of it as GL's "close enough" Indy gun for the 1911.

Dan S

Alkali Jones wrote:Hey Canada Jones,

I don't wish to be too discouaging, but the Browning HP just went into production in 1935. It was adopted by the Belgian military as their service pistol. I doubt anyone could "just pick one up" in Nepal or anywhere else for that matter in 1936. Futher, Indy's gun was an Inglis Hi Power, not manuactered until 1944 in Canada. Just think of it as GL's "close enough" Indy gun for the 1911.

Dan S

All of these good points Dan. I guess my thinking was more along the lines of him having an automatic as a second gun where he might get one (in response to an earlier comment about not seeing him pack it). I did not know that Indy's gun was a Canadian made Inglis so that was interesting to me. Yes, I think it was a close enough for a 1911 which may be related to the 9mm being used because of the blanks it fired.
best
Canada

Bit of gee whiz here... Watch the raven bar scene closely, Indy switches between the Hi Power and the Bapty a couple times. When the shooting starts, he initially fires a few shots with the revolver. Scene cuts away and then back to him firing around the corner. Now he has the auto. Scene cuts away and back again - now he's back to the revolver again. Fires it a couple more times and then fires the auto for the rest of the fight sequence. My apologies if someone already posted on this, but I did a search and couldn't find it.

Here is a previous post that goes into this in great detail.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24573

Also here is my frame by frame analysis of the Raven Bar scene that was also posted previously:


30:48 Indy uses whip to snatch hot poker from Marions face
30:50 Indy with Smith in left hand says "let her go"
30:54 Smith (Shot 1) using left hand
30:55 - 30:57 three other scenes
30:58 Smith (Shot 2) using left hand then heads towards doorway
30:59 Smith (Shot 3) swithes gun to right hand and enters doorway
31:00 Villain with machine gun
31:01 Smith in doorway ready to shoot
31:02 Villain with machine gun again
*31:02 quick one shot using HP
*31:03 Smith (shot 4 & 5) looking over Indy's shoulder
31:04 Smith (shot 6,7 & 8 ) Indy in doorway
*31:05 Indy fires 2 shots with Unknown Gun, we are looking over Villains shoulder with Indy shooting towards us
31:06 wideshot of bar
31:07 Villain dumps table
31:08 close-up of Headpiece
31:10 Villain tosses rifle
31:11 wideshot of bar
31:12 villain shoots rifle
31:13 Indy is in doorway with Smith, his left hand grabs his jacket as he looks down to put the Smith into the holster
31:14 - 31:18 A few other scenes
31:19 Indy swings his body and arms from right to left with his HP now in hand
After this Indy now only uses the HP.

Upon analysis it seems that the discrepency in the magic switching guns comes at 31:02. We also have a discrepency at 31:03 and 31:04 because with these 2 scenes we have a total of 8 shots being fired with the Smith. The scene at 31:05 is also problamatic as it would add 2 more possible shots for the Smith thus totalling 10 shots with a 6 shot revolver! The scene at 31:05 also seems out of place as he is shooting at the wrong Villain.

To correct the discrepencies all that needs to be done is to remove the three scenes I have marked with an * This would leave us a total of six shots with the Smith. It gets rid of the magically appearing HP. And it removes the out of place scene with 2 shots fired from an unknown gun.

If we made the above corrections everything works out correctly It now looks like the scenes from 31:13 to 31:19 show that Indy realizes he is out of ammo with his Smith after firing 6 shots, so he holsters the Smith and draws the HP from his pants to continue the gunfight. This is probably what was supposed to happen.

Indy's MK VII bag is never seen anywhere on him during the entire Bar scene, so he could not have gotten the HP from his bag. Also I don't think he drew it from a shoulder holster as his movements seem to suggest holstering the Smith and then drawing the HP from his pants. There is also one frame at 31:13 where it looks like you can see the HP stuck in his pants. He also could not have gotten it from Marion as she was seperated from him by the bar and a couple of villains.


Another few interesting observations:

At 31:28 we see Indy use the HP to shoot the man who is on fire. This is the exact same angle shot as the magically appearing HP scene at 31:02. That 31:02 HP scene was obviously not intended to be there as it was part of the man on fire sequence.

At 31:42 Indy reloads the HP with a new magazine after only firing 5 shots. At 32:23 he shoots the HP 4 more times. The HP is only shot a total of 9 times.

At 32:44 We see that Indy is now struggling with a villain who has taken the HP away from Indy. At 32:48 Indy forces the villains hand that is holding the HP over a fire and the villain drops the HP into the fire! After that we never see Indy retrieve the HP and it seems that he leaves the HP behind when he leaves with Marion!

How does he end up with the HP again on the Bantu Wind?! They really should have shown Indy with the Smith rather than the HP when he's on the Bantu Wind. Especially since he never fires it while on the boat.

Anyways, that was a lot of fun!! I hope it solves some mysteries and allows us all to sleep better at nights!

Now THATS commitment!

Your right!! I should be "commited"!!!

Hey Indiana Bond,

Indiana Bond wrote: How does he end up with the HP again on the Bantu Wind?! They really should have shown Indy with the Smith rather than the HP when he's on the Bantu Wind. Especially since he never fires it while on the boat.

This is no more strange than the question: How did Indy get his gun and whip back from Belloq in the jungle? It's a "tip of the hat" by GL & SS to the old matine movies and their bad continuity checking. They made an episode per week and mistakes were made. Some "intentionally" to allow our Hero to survive, some accidentally because there just wasn't time, money, personel, etc. to take care of the problem.

I don't like it when people say "It's just a movie." The movies made today have too much at stake (in terms of dollars at least) to let things fall through the cracks. These "gags" were done intentionally by the Directer and Producer for a reason (not necessarily a good reason). Because of this, there really can't be an Indy Universe. The "mistakes" were intentional. No man could take the physical abuse Indiana Jones did from the all nighter in the Well of Souls, to the escape, to the plane fight, to the truck fight and dragging, to the Bantu Wind. But it makes a great story! That's what we love. A great story.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm not saying modern movies don't have mistakes. They do. I'm not saying we shouldn't speculate about this stuff. We should, and I love it! Just, I don't think the gun thing was a mistake, that's all.

Dan S

Alkali Jones wrote: This is no more strange than the question: How did Indy get his gun and whip back from Belloq in the jungle?

He didn't. He threw a new gun and whip in his suitcase at his house.

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/105.jpg

Yes, I do agree that purposeful gags were made, mistakes were made, giving the the hero an unreal edge was done on purpose. How else could Indy survive riding on the outside of a submarine for all that distance!

Yes it is all in fun and to me it just adds to the experiance.

Scrutinizing all the details is just what we all like to do as a hobby. At least that's how I feel. It's just adds to the fun of the movie especially after seeing it a gadzillion times!!

Indiana Bond wrote:Yes, I do agree that purposeful gags were made, mistakes were made, giving the the hero an unreal edge was done on purpose. How else could Indy survive riding on the outside of a submarine for all that distance!

Yes it is all in fun and to me it just adds to the experiance.

Scrutinizing all the details is just what we all like to do as a hobby. At least that's how I feel. It's just adds to the fun of the movie especially after seeing it a gadzillion times!!

I thnk he tied himself to the 'snorkle' with his whip, and was lucky it didn't dive deep.

I'm always amused by these discussions and that people go to such lengths to try to have them make sense. During the moviemaking era to which Raiders is a tribute, continuity was problematic at best. Even today, continity is a NIGHTMARE to track due to the fragmanted way movies are shot and there are didgital cameras and video playback to assist.

As my father used to say, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story." Indy uses guns that are either hopelessly outdated (Webley in CS) or cutting-edge military technology (HP in Raiders). The bad guys use guns not yet invented (Schmeisser). So do the "cavalry" (Indian troops in TOD).

When people bash CS for the fridge scene, I point to the sub sequence in Raiders as a counter. 1. That type sub not yet invented in 1936. 2. Even when invented, that type sub cannot sail submerged the distance required by the map sequence. 3. Even if it could, a human could not survive the voyage lashed to the periscope. 4. So if the sub traveled surfaced (which U-boats did unless attacking or evading) there's nowhere to hide on deck and there are always sailors on deck watch. Who cares. It's an exciting sequence.

The guns in Raiders don't make any sense either. But that bar fight is probably the best cinematic gunfight I've ever seen.

Hey All,

Luke Warmwater said it better than i did. But I totally agree. TOH Well said.

Dan S

Thanks, AJ. One more thing to add: Staff of Ra, six kadam high "about 72 inches." So one kadam= one foot. Take back one kadam to honor the Hebrew god whose Ark this is, so staff= 5 feet. The Nazi's staff is too long. After all that, Indy stands in the map room and sticks a seven foot pole into the hole.