Club Obi Wan

Above Photo is probably the most accurate Raider's (Bapty Version) gun modification ever made.

We have a new GUNSMITH!!!! Jack Devore!!!

A few weeks ago I purchased a S&W 1917 Service Revolver. It was really a beaut. I had a hard time making a decision to cut the barrel due to the standard issue 1917 service revolver barrel being at 5 1/2 inches long. However, after getting encouraging news that the gun wasn't really a "collectible" anymore due to the front site being modified, I decided to modify the 1917 to a more Indy accurate shooter. More specifically the Bapty gun, instead of the Stembridge which was only used in two scenes (Hawaii and inside of Indy's house - the throw into the suitcase).

The next problem was finding a gunsmith to do the job. Well you see the results above, I think I got much more than I imagined. Lee Keppler worked with Jack Devore by giving him his resin Replica, his own S&W Indy Revolver and screen grabs of the gun from the movie. I wanted the Bapty version, which had the Baughman style ramp sites. The gun already had a very nice set of Gold Medallion walnut, checkered grips. All it needed was a new front site, ramp up and the barrel modified to 4 inches in length. The Bapty version gun was used in most of the movie, but mostly in Elstree Studios and the Tunisia shots.

After the mod was done, Lee was just hysterical that Jack really out did himself again. Jack has done several gun smithing projects in the past for Lee (an 1895 Marlin), but this was Jack's first Indy gun mod. Jack has definitely a keen eye for the detail that is required to peform such a task. So with Lee's endorsement and of course mine, I would highly recommend using Jack for any future Indy Gun mods. I also discussed this with our Gun MODERATOR, Michaelson, and he just loved the pictures.

Jack's contact info is:

Jack Devore
Flagstaff, Arizona
PH: 928-526-7718

So Jack is totally up to speed on this weird hobby of ours. But actually he is used to gunsmithing guns to look just like the movies. He did most of the work at Reeder Custom Guns(www.reedercustomguns.com) and is now on his own.


Below are the Pre/Post shots of the gun. The gun is absolutely accurate in every detail with ONE exception:
- the Bapty version was .455 caliber (which actually was a big disadvantage to me since ammo for the .455 is very difficult to find)




Again a BIG THANKS TO LEE KEPPLER and JACK DEVORE!! And of course I would like to thank Michaelson for his expertise in this area as well. Afterall he is the gun expert too (he took a course and is certified in gunsmithing - I didn't know that) and I would encourage everybody here to post anything gun related to Mr. Michaelson. I know absolutely NOTHING about guns, other than what I read at IndyGear. That's what makes this such a great community. We have a knowlegable staff as well as knowledgable members of COW that truly makes this a one stop Knowledge Repository for Indy gear and most adventure gear. ) (Geesh, I laid on a little thick here, but what can I say, it's the truth!)

-Sergei

SPECIAL POSTSCRIPT:
Since I'm in California, I went through a dealer to get the gun over to Jack. I should have said that, but I my assumption it was only a California law and it wouldn't apply nationally. Well it does. So Jack informed me, that all the mods have to go through a dealer and then to Jack. I thought it was only California law, which means our national gun laws have really become too strict. This is riduculous. If you are upset, we should all take the time to write our congressional representative.

What can I say, I am proud of this gun. Folks, feast your eyes, this is how it's done.












I'm not shooting myself, but there is a NAZI behind me!



-Sergei

Absolutely beautiful. He does great detailed work. I'm envious. Regards. Michaelson
P.S. Just this minute saw the added info. You didn't have to say all that, but thank you for the compliments, my friend.

Thanks Michaelson, that means a lot to me!

-Sergei

Congratulations Sergei! Like you, I know very little about the technical side of guns but that is one beautiful fire arm. Discharge it with pride!!

One of these days I'm going to have to stop spending money on blades and whips and excercise my 2nd Amendment right. Although I'm gaining a new interest in Tomahawks so that might be a set back.

Once again, Congrats!

The_Edge wrote:One of these days I'm going to have to stop spending money on blades and whips and excercise my 2nd Amendment right.
Once again, Congrats!

Speaking of the 2nd Amendment:


I just got the above picture when a buddy of mine saw my new gun. )

-Sergei
p.s. Tomahawks? Yeah, I can see that. I just bought a set of 5 throwing knives at the last WWAC convention. It's fun.

That is the closest gun I have seen to date by far. A fine piece, that is.

It has caused me to look closer at the movie gun. Here is one of the best photos I have of the sight:



Is it me or does it look as though the sight doesn't overlap as much as Sergei's?



Is Sergei's barrel shorter?

This is kind of what happened with the jacket. The closer someone gets, the closer we look at the details.

The barrels are the same, but the new sight looks slightly longer on Sergei's revolver. Considering it was custom made from scratch using photos and Lee's revolver, I think he split the difference to make it a little easier to make and use. It would be a LOT easier to see on the range. Those smaller sights as seen on the real movie gun are not all that easy to shoot off of, especially with eyes like mine. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

Now your splitting hairs on a flea's butt MK.

I think you may have something there, MK! I think we were so focused on the shape of the site. The shape and profile of the site is dead on. The barrel length is spec on, 4 inches from the barrel end to the cone. I just remeasured.

But I see what you are saying. From the screen grab, the end of the foundation that the site sits on, seems to be at the end of the outer part of the crane mount. Where on my gun, the site foundation clearly goes past the end of the crane mount. Hmmm... As we get closer...

-Sergei

Where's that screen grab from MK? Is that from the "Flying Wing"? I think that is the one Lee gave to Jack.

-Sergei

Ok, I get to split hairs...you did mean the front ejector mount under the barrel rather than the crane mount, right? Like I said, yours is bigger than the original, but just a little. I'd presonally rather shoot yours than the original. I've shot those N frames with the smaller front sights and fixed rear, and it ain't easy to line up. Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Ok, I get to split hairs...you did mean the front ejector mount under the barrel rather than the crane mount, right? Like I said, yours is bigger than the original, but just a little. I'd presonally rather shoot yours than the original. I've shot those N frames with the smaller front sights and fixed rear, and it ain't easy to line up. Regards. Michaelson

Yeah, I meant the front ejector mount. I even had my 1917 service revolver manual out to check the nomenclature and it wasn't clear from the manual.

But look at these two pictures:

Above is courtesy of Graal


Above picture is Lee's Resin(below) and Lee's S&W

The French diagram (other than the 1917 .455 barrel should have been 6 1/2"), you can see proportionally where the site ends. To my eye, the site foundation would end too too abruptly, making it look out of proportion, if we are reading the screen grab correctly.

MK, do you have any other screen grabs? I just have a hard time believing that one can possibly be real. Man, are you messing with Photoshop again and messing with my head? )

After really staring what you provided, I can almost see that from that angle (which looks to be below and slightly in front of the gun), the base of the foundation might continue further on down the barrel.


-Sergei

Well thanks MK. Now the foundation looks like it goes further back past the front ejector mount, just like my mod. But the actual site looks smaller. Or is it? Hmm...

Beautiful piece. It's the nicest Indy gun I've ever seen. I'll second your feelings about Michaelson. He knows about many subjects. He reminds me a lot of my father. Guys like that are a rare breed these days. Last but not least, where would we be without Lee Keppler? Cheers

Hey Sergei, that's incredible. How long did it take him to do it? Would he consider another Gearhead shipping him one for another conversion? And what was the cost? If you need, PM me the details. That's beautiful!!!!

Hey that was the purpose of the post. He wants our business.

The cost of the mod is going to vary from gun to gun. It depends on the condition of the gun. Such as, if you need to get the gun reblued, or you need something else on the gun fixed. The gun took about 6 weeks but that time was related to other external conditions. So I would be guessing it's more like 2 to 4 weeks. Make sure to tell him, Lee sent ya. He probably won't remember my name, but he'll remember my gun.

I also told him while he was doing cosmetic surgery that he more or less had carte blanche on fixing whatever needed to be done. Fortunately, all the mechanical stuff on the gun was in great shape.
-Sergei

From the looks of your photos, it appears he 'hot blues', and that's the best there is, in my opinion. Regards. Michaelson

What does it mean to "blue" a gun? Is it a protective finish?

Honest answer? It's a controlled rusting of the material in hot salts that give a protective surface to the metal parts. It will hold oil better when wiped down, though if left alone WILL eventually rust, it's more for the protection of the metal than anything else. There are many kinds of controlled rusting that have been used over the years. Originally the metal surfaces for weapons were 'browned' , using a hotwater type bath, due to the softer nature of the metals. That's why you see old flintlocks brown instead of blue. It's correct for it's time period. In the 1800's hot bath blueing using a different bluing salt was put into use as a much better way to protect the metal. Many manufacturers prided themselves in how nice their weapons looked by their bluing, so much so Colt even pattened one way, calling it 'Colt Blue' (yeah, I know, DUH ), but Smith and Wesson always had the nicest bluing of any, and still seems to be able to match the newer guns to the old bluing. Colt has slipped somewhat, since they've changed hands so many times. Hope that helps answer the question (probably more than you wanted to know! ) Regards. Michaelson

I'm still in awe how great a job he did. Methinks I'll be calling this gent tonight.... hope he's home

Thanks for the explanation Michaelson. I learn something new every day.

Yeah, me too (re: learning every day). I heard that "bluing" is a controlled rusting process. I also hear "Parkerization" a lot too, in the context of perserving the gun metal. What is that, Michaelson?

Good God that is the most beautiful gun I've ever placed eyes on! WOW! That is an awesome gun! Congratulations on your new peice, that is gorgious, just gorgious!

I have got to get me one of these!! Excellent gun!

Thanks DrJones56! I just wish Agent5 completed the Ravine Bar, so that I can shoot (blanks of course) some Nazi's. ) The shooting range, hardly cuts it.

-Sergei

Congratulations Sergei, that is one AWSOME looking Indy gun



Regards,
Indiana*Jones

Parkerizing was more of a blued/sandblasted finish that did not require any final polishing after the bluing process was completed. It was done for speed of production, as well as creating a non-reflective surface on the finished weapon for combat purposes. Just plain ugly looking finish, but worked well in the field. Regards. Michaelson

I may have asked this before, but why was the gun barrel cut down for the movie?

schwammy wrote:I may have asked this before, but why was the gun barrel cut down for the movie?

So it could fit in the 4 inch Holster better. )

-Sergei

Of course, to allow the holster to ride up with wear. Whoops! Wrong section to post that in. (sorry Sergei, had to do it!) High regards. Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Of course, to allow the holster to ride up with wear. Whoops! Wrong section to post that in. (sorry Sergei, had to do it!) High regards. Michaelson

LOL. Lot's of milage out of that one.

-S
p.s. Scwammy as soon as fotki (my photo poster and yours) is back up, I will perhaps post a pic and give my theory.

Hello,

This is my first post (although I've been an Indy fan since the first Snowcapped mountaintop shot way back when) - anywho, enough babbling...

SO, I just got my Mark II Hand Ejector .455! I am very psyched. My thanks to all you for the advice and direction, especially Lee and MK! I take it from the extreme kudos to the gentlemen in Flagstaff that he is the one I should send my revolver to for modifications? Also, based upon what Sergei has seen, and the rest of you have in photos, are there any subtle changes I should request of the gunsmith in Flagstaff?

I also have one additional question: Is the .45 Hand Ejector the one with the semicircle sight, and the .455 is the one with the ramp sight? Looking at the IG sight photo and discussion, that is my inclination.

I really want to do this well, and appreciate the time and effort all of you have spent on this topic, which I fully intend to leverage into my own efforts.

Thanks, again!

Obi-Wan and Only

Apologies to the Baord! My window kept indicating the message was not sent. Each time, I selected "Stop", and then clicked "post".

Lesson learned, guys!

Yes, Mr. Obi Wan and Only,
You seem to have a grasp of the facts. The .455 had the ramp up style sites. The .45 HE had the half-moon sites.

Jack did my site conversion and barrel cut. He is very familiar with the ramp up style mod to the site. He has the screen grabs, pictures and I believe a plastic form of the site. From the discourse above, I would say there is nothing to change. You are good to go. Jack will take care of you.

-Sergei

Done, and Done.

I'll be certain to post pics when I get it back!

-- Obi-wan and Only

Please do post. I enjoy looking at pictures of gear, guns and whips.

-Sergei

Sergei,

That is a beut! That is my next purchase for sure! Where did you find the shooter? I've been to gun shows but haven't had much luck? Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Dr. J

Thanks for the great info Sergei! I have talked with Jack and I am sending my S&W HE2 .455 to have it cut down, the ramp site added, and the whole thing re-blued. Jack sounds like a really great guy and he definitely knows his trade. I'll post pics when I get my gun back from him.

Dr._J wrote:Sergei,

That is a beut! That is my next purchase for sure! Where did you find the shooter? I've been to gun shows but haven't had much luck? Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Dr. J

That's where I found this one. I have been going to gunshows for over 2 years and this one was the best one ever. I guess patience is the key. So lucky I found one with the "gold" medallions and checkered grips.

-S

I can't take credit for finding this resource; I think Lee was the one that posted it previously, but here is a great resource:

http://adamsguns.com/0p.htm

I did the transaction using a local dealer with a Federal Firearms License to receive the revolver (who charged a very agreeable and negligible fee). He had a few Mark II HE Model 2's in stock a while back, having returned from a gunshow/auction. Site looks like they're sold now, but he can get them. I think he can also get the Browning Hi-Power, S&W 1917, etc.

For the S&W 1917, I also found this site (and will take credit for it):

http://www.marstar.ca/usedguns/revolvers/S&W-54734.htm

Dunno if the price listed is US or Canadian dollars, though.

Good Luck!

-- Obi-Wan and Only

Sergei wrote:

I just wish Agent5 completed the Ravine Bar, so that I can shoot (blanks of course) some Nazi's.

Man, you and me both. It's funny you mention that because I was just at a bar the other night on the north-side of Chicago and I was in the balcony for a concert there. The place was a match in size and everything for the Raven. The only thing was there were two balconies instead of one and there were some beams a bit too low on the ceiling. Otherwise it was pretty much it. Amazing how my mind is always on the look for props, gear, sets design and all kinds of stuff relating to Raiders sort of subconciously.

Hey all,

Pardon my ig-no-rance, but what is the difference between the HE2 and the Model 1917? Which is the most accurate? Mainly, what should I ask for at the gunshow? Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Dr. J

Essentially, they're the same thing. The 1917 was the military version (plainer finish and grips) and the HE2 aimed at the civilian market...better bluing, grips and sights with the option of lanyard ring in the butt of the gun, which was standard on the designated 1917 model. Regards. Michaelson

Michaelson is completely right. Of course he should be. My experience in walking around gun shows, is that the dealers give you a strange look when you ask if they sell or know anybody else that sells a "HE2". But when you say 1917, they know exactly what your are talking about. Most 1917's come with the smooth walnut grips. I completely lucked out, where mine came with the "checkered" walnut grips, with the gold medallion logos. So my advice is to look at 1917's and if they have the smooth walnut grips, then your next mission is to find the checkered grips, which is hard but they are around. However, if you have found a 1917, the other dilema is that if it is in "collectable" condition:
- serial numbers match (barrel, cylinder, frame, etc.)
- the barrel is 5.5 inches and in good condition
- most of the original blueing is intact

Then a "collectible" condition gun shouldn't be cut. It's really much more valueable if you leave it alone. I have seen "collectible" 1917 guns go as high as $2k. But for the non astute seller, you can find them much, much cheaper. But this is rare, and it happens. So again, my 1917 was a true 1917 Service Revolver issued by the US ARMY. But the grips were not true to the non-Indy Fan, but true to the Indyfan, the sight was modified from the original 1917 semi-moon sights. So my decision was easier to go ahead and "cut" the gun and have the Indy style sight gunsmithed on.

Hopefully that makes sense, Dr. J.

-Sergei

Excellent pointers, Sergei. Also, don't shy away from non-matching serial numbers if you can find armory markings showing the gun has returned to the armory (or for that fact, Smith and Wesson. A lot of these old war horses were pressed back into service for WW2 and were refitted and issued as sidearms) for re-work. Many times cylinders, frames and barrels were mixed and matched to make a complete revolver. If the armory or factory did this, they retimed them to match, test fired them, then stamped a new number on the part to match the frame. You'll find the old number with a line struck through it, and the frame number 'newly' stamped on the replacement part. This is totally acceptable. If you find numbers mixed up and NO armory or factory re-stamp, back slowly away from the gun, then turn and run. Chances are it's a Frankenstein, and will spit lead out the side of the forcing cone at the front of the cylinder due to poor timing of the cylinder to the barrel, mis aleignment of the chamber to the cylinder due to the lockup, etc. etc. Just take your time, use the tips you can find at the FAQ at the main IndyGear.com page, and you'll still find these jewels out there on gunshow tables. Regards. Michaelson

I didn't know that about the serial numbers being reworked and reissued. Your da Man, Michaelson. You know, since I cut my brilliant US Army M1917, I have been on a quest to find a "collectible" M1917 to add to my collection. The M1917 is so beautiful in it's original issue shape.

Like this one:


No way, I would cut this one.

-Sergei

Just about all the firearms manufacturers did this during the war. I own a model 1944 Mosin-Nagent Russian rifle with an armory re-numbered cartridge plate at the base of the rifle. It was apparently replaced from another Mosin, but restamped with the frame number of my rifle, and the number of the doner rifle chisel -lined through, so it was (and probably still IS) a common practice when a quick turn around is/was required to get a military field piece back into service. As to the shown 1917.... wow. That's about all a feller can say! High regards. Michaelson

Michaelson and Sergei,

Thanks (as always) for your expert advice! This quest will no doubt be the most fun (and challanging) one yet! I'll let you know how it goes!

Regards,

Dr. J

Michaelson wrote: I own a model 1944 Mosin-Nagent Russian rifle with an armory re-numbered cartridge plate at the base of the rifle. ...

Wow, I am on the verge of buying a Mosin-Nagent 91/30. The 91/30 is the sniper version in the Mosin line (used in the "Enemy at the Gates" - Ed Harris et al). All serial numbers matching on everything. At the low, low price of $129, from the local neighborhood sporting goods store.

-Sergei