Club Obi Wan

Check this hat out. The customer wanted a hat that I could guarantee would be straight, with no taper at all. I guaranteed it to be so, and you tell me if I succeeded or not. Note the slight reverse taper on the back of the hat too. By the way, the top crease on this hat is 1 1/2 inches deep, which is a pretty deep top crease, and the back is 3 3/4 inches in height.(Try dropping your fav brand down that low and see how much taper you get. ;-) ) Pretty low back, and lower than I generally make them. Take a look. And pardon the photographer. He has no clue as to how to take a good pic with these new fangled digitals. I work better in analog.

I would say that you succeded ! She is wonderfull !

Straight as a stovepipe, and a darn nice hat if I might say so... Good job on this one Steve!

a deep crease and still straight up and down.......very nice!!!

a question for you, with a center crease that deep in the back (3 3/4"), won't the customer be hitting the bottom of that crease with his/her head? i played with a deep crease on my block and i think i can get it quite nicely....but had to increase the height of the hat accordingly.

just might be bugging you for a hat

Such a great looking hat. I can't wait to order one of these beauties myself.

It's a gorgeous hat, from color to style. I love the deep top crease.

You have surpassed yourself with that one, Steve. Can I trade ya?

Wow, I think we all want one now. Awesome, I think that side view takes the cake. Well....I guess mine's in process.....

Could you teach me the art of making hats?

-Alfonso

The specs on the hat actually look good.  Do you have a bowside shot of this particular hat?

Great job!

My God... that fedora is spot-on to the Raiders hat, particularly in the last pic that is a dead-ringer for the hat sitting on the table at Imam's house. Steve, you have outdone yourself (not a bad habit, either!). If I were the lucky recipient of that fedora, I would be singing its praises from the mountaintop.

That's the hat that got us all interested in this hobby in the first place, it's exactly what we've all been waiting for.

She's a BEAUTY !!!

I hope you guys understand that this is the hats that come out of the AB line every day. Hands down the AB is the closest you will ever get to taking the Raiders hat off of Fords head.

Great job as always my friend.

Very awesome. I always thought that every hat post the opening temple scene in Raiders had a really deep center crease. This looks spot on.

Sweet!

whoa! -and it still looks floppy and soft!

Fedora wrote:Check this hat out. The customer wanted a hat that I could guarantee would be straight, with no taper at all. I guaranteed it to be so, and you tell me if I succeeded or not.

If your customer's head is a rounder oval than your hat's block, when he puts it on, it WILL be tapered. If his head is a longer oval, he'll get reverse taper. - That's why I make a custom block for each customers head.

Steve sure knows how to make 'em.




LJ

a question for you, with a center crease that deep in the back (3 3/4"), won't the customer be hitting the bottom of that crease with his/her head? i played with a deep crease on my block and i think i can get it quite nicely....but had to increase the height of the hat accordingly.

It really depends upon the head shape. Ford's head did not hit the top of the hat, but then look at his head shape. Short forehead. If you have a long forehead, it might hit the top, depending upon the open crown height.

I cannot wear a 5 1/4 open crown hat creased down to even 4 inches on the back. My head pushes up the top crease just a bit. So, I have to wear a hat that starts out with a 5 1/2 open crown. I can then crease the back down to 4 inches and we are good to go.

I actually have 3 different Raider's blocks. Full sets. If you want the tapered Raiders fedora, I can do that as well as the very stove pipe hat as seen above. I determine which block to use by which hat the customer wants. As most know, you actually see several hats in the Raiders that are tapered somewhat. These I have never liked personally. I figured they shrunk during filming. Some appear shorter than others as well, and this is due, IMO, from shrinkage. Working with HJ felt, drove this home in a big way, I might add. I think the Raiders felt suffered the same problem as the later HJs. And this is the reason you see different "looks" from supposedly the same blockshape in that film.

I am waiting on some screen caps from our local surveyor to illustrate what I was originally setting my sights on when making my very first block years ago. I will post those on this thread when he gets around to doing those for me. But, it is the same hat you see him hanging off the front of the truck.

If your customer's head is a rounder oval than your hat's block, when he puts it on, it WILL be tapered. If his head is a longer oval, he'll get reverse taper. - That's why I make a custom block for each customers head.

Yes, if his head is rounder than the block I used to create this hat, you would get some taper as seen from the front, but reverse taper in the back. If his head was a long, long oval, you would get reverse taper as seen from the front, and taper on the back. If you put a long oval head in this same hat, you would get a bit of reverse taper as seen from the front, and the back would remain basically straight.

Regarding the round head, there are different degrees of roundness. Our heads are not cookie cutter heads. If your head is slightly round this hat above would still maintain the right look. It is a matter of degree.

One last point. If I were to use this same block on the current non stiffened HJ felt, what you would end up with would be too much of a good thing. The sort of felt used enters into the eqauation. If you used a cowboy stiff felt with this same block, you would get more taper than you see above. The interplay between blockshapes and felt is more important than one would think at first glance. There is more to hatting than meets the eye. And, I am still learning.

That's why I make a custom block for each customers head.

You will end up with alot of blocks. Let's see, 6 3/4, 7, 7 1/8, 7 1/4, 7 3/8, 7 1/2, 7 5/8, 7 3/4 and an 8. That's 9 blocks per head shape, Now there is a round, round oval, a round oval, a regular oval, a long oval, a long,long oval and a triple long oval. 6 of them. So, you will end up with 9 x 6 or 54 blocks. If you handmake them, you will spend alot of time making blocks. The best way is to make one of each head shape, and then have them replicated by a blockmaker. Lamode is around 185.00 each or roughly 10 grand in blocks. Quite an investment, and the blocks will only last for a year if you are making alot of hats. So, expect to continually reinvest in blocks. I have done so several times. The best way to go would be metal, so, figure 75 grand in blocks if you go that route. I don't like metal blocks and would never use them. Wood is the only way to go. It ***** the moisture out of the hat in the drying stage, and you really don't want to push the drying, with a heater. A hat needs to dry at its natural rate in order to help hold the shape, before you really put the shape in with water and high heat. The initial drying is so important in hatmaking. As is the later water heat, and pressure that puts more memory into the felt. And you need felt that is as stable in the raw state as you can get. When I make my own hats, I block them 1/4 an inch taller than the final hat I am shooting for. I then, use a very hot vintage iron(modern irons don't get hot enough) to shrink to the final crown height. This sometimes involves an off and on ironing of the hat for a couple of hours, allowing it to cool between ironings. Very, very time consuming and labor intensive, which is why it takes so long to make one of my hats, or Marc's. Sure, we could do em' fast, and make twice as many. But, we cannot do that in good conscience. We know how important this is to the final hat. And each run of felt can be different, and you learn over time what you must do differently in order to turn out a decent hat. I am running on with this, mostly to give tips to our new hatters. Lots of this I learned from trial and error over the years. Maybe I helped out a few by the tidbits above. I had a hard time getting good info from hatters when I first started. Many don't want to help a new guy out for the competition reasons. I am not like that. John at Montana Hatters graciously helped me out, although he had stated if I were a western hatter, he would have told me nothing!! He is a western hatter. I still publically thank John. Some hatters will intentionally give you bad info, if you are a beginner. I got some of that too!!! Have fun with it guys. I still get an immense sense of pleasure seeing a raw body transformed into an Indy fedora. It's almost a miracle to me, even today. I stay tired, but if I did not enjoy it so much, it really would be a chore. You attack each body and you struggle to transform it. Sometimes it doesn't turn out right. So, you make it again. Sometimes you have to lose the body and throw it away, but not often. One thing about it, is if you are good with you hands and have a good eye and are attentive it is very enjoyable work. And work it is. If you don't break a sweat you ain't making it right. ;-) Fedora

Do you have a bowside shot of this particular hat?

No, I did not take a pic of that side. Mostly because all my bows are basically identical. Just look at the pic the other fan posted and that is what the bow would look like. Only move it forward a bit as I turned the hat. Fedora

Steve, that was a beautiful and beautifully written post. Makes me yearn for an AB even more than before. Zen in the art of Hat Making. Everyone who owns an AB should be honored to wear it as it has been given a soul by Steve Delk.

If I am understanding right (and I may not be... I am no expert whatsoever), but if I have a bigger head, where my head usually pushes up the top dent of mu Fed IV, I should go for the 5 1/2" crown instead of the 5 1/4"? I ordered an AB from Marc a couple of months ago so I have some time to wait. In the pictures you supplied in this thread, the hat shows a deep center dent, making a v-shape when the top dent meets the center crease (if you know what I am talking about). That "v" is what I want on my hat, but I could never get it on my Fed cause my head always pushed it out.

Is the 5 1/2" crown something I could ask for from Marc? Or is it an AB standard? I plan on letting him bash it to something close to what you have in this thread.

Again, I am no expert when it comes to these things so all help is greatly appreciated!

Fedora wrote:

Do you have a bowside shot of this particular hat?

No, I did not take a pic of that side. Mostly because all my bows are basically identical. Just look at the pic the other fan posted and that is what the bow would look like. Only move it forward a bit as I turned the hat. Fedora

Well I have spotted a recent change in your bowwork I was just curious.

Dutch_jones wrote:

Fedora wrote:

Do you have a bowside shot of this particular hat?

No, I did not take a pic of that side. Mostly because all my bows are basically identical. Just look at the pic the other fan posted and that is what the bow would look like. Only move it forward a bit as I turned the hat. Fedora

Well I have spotted a recent change in your bowwork I was just curious.

What change exactly? I haven't noticed....

Beautiful work as usual, Fedora. I can't speak for the customer, but I know I'd be VERY satisfied with that hat. -M

You will end up with alot of blocks. Let's see, 6 3/4, 7, 7 1/8, 7 1/4, 7 3/8, 7 1/2, 7 5/8, 7 3/4 and an 8.

I guess we 6 7/8 guys have an ultra-rare head size.

That hat is simply beautiful. It makes me want my AB even more. All in due time, I tell myself...all in due time.

Dave

My suggestion, Dr. Ulloa, is don't get your hopes up TOO high - as you've seen on the "date you ordered your AB" thread, we're starting to have people who are actually being disappointed with their AB's simply because the hype was so high that it was impossible for ANY hat to live up to it. Not trying to lecture, just wanted to point out that these are still hats, even if they're the best hats available. -M

I realize that these are just hats, even if they are the best money can buy. I am not expecting it to leap out of the box and place itself on my head like some sort of wand in Harry Potter, picking its owner. I am, however, still excited to get mine and seeing these photos, and every other photo of new ABs, ,make the desire stronger.

Dave

I'm one of the guys, like Mulceber mentioned, who was a little disappointed when receiving my hat. I guess after reading so many posts about how incredible the ABs are... you really do start to expect the hat to leap out of the box and onto your head like something out of Harry Potter (as Dr Ulloa suggests ). In the end it is just a hat.. but after the initial, "oh, its just a hat" reaction, you can really start to appreciate the quality and craftsmanship that went into it. It is my first and probably last Indy hat and I already know by handling it that I probably won't find another one that can measure up to it.

So in the end.. yes its just a hat.. but a great one.

LJ

but if I have a bigger head, where my head usually pushes up the top dent of mu Fed IV, I should go for the 5 1/2" crown instead of the 5 1/4"

I think I would go with the 5 1/2 height.

To the other guy, yes it is in the end, just a hat. To really appreciate it requires one to be a hat afficionado. Not all of us are.

The main difference between our hats and most factory hats( I did say most) is that this one will last you a whole lot longer. You actually get the chance to get attached to it. Not a bad thing. It can become an old friend in a manner of speaking.

But with that said, you won't be able to leap tall building with a single bound, regardless of which hat you buy.

If the Indy 4 gig had not come to us, I wouldn't be making hats today. Well, only my own. And I would have myself a nice collection, at least 4 Indy hats, one from each of the films. To date, I don't even own one of my own. I gave several away over the years to various folks who could not afford one. So, I wear other's hats, but at least they have my blockshape to them.

For those that are tired of waiting, I have posted many times you can get a refund anytime that you want. I have refunded thousands of bucks in hats to the impatient. But, it is a pain to do so. Not because of the money, but because of the confusion it can cause. I have shipped out several hats that I had refunded, and these jerks kept the hats. Only one guy had the decency to return it! I am hoping they were lurkers and not members here. That would be a huge disapointment to me personally. So to the member from the U.K. a big THANK YOU for being honest. To the guy from Spain, enjoy that free hat!!! (these were the latest goof ups on my part)

I guess we 6 7/8 guys have an ultra-rare head size.

Well, it is rare indeed. Not so much in the 30's though. Our average skull size has increased.

Generally on the sizes that are like the above size, many hatters just use a size 7 block and then cut the sweat to your head size, and drum it in. Drumming makes for a really nice fitting hat, by the way and shrinkage down the road is less of a problem as well.

I used a size 7 3/8 block to make Harrison's hats and drummed in the 22 7/8 sweatband. As well as did Marc. This has been a common hatmaking practice as long as folks have been making hats.

What change exactly? I haven't noticed....

The main difference is I "accent" the Raiders bow, the flying v, a bit more than the others. By using 4 extra stitches. But with that said, my bows have improved over the years. So, yes, as the hatter got better, you saw differences. These days, they are pretty consistent, with the Raider's bow being a bit more defined. Fedora

So Steve, can we all agree on a quick way to refer to this "Super Straight-Sided Stove-Pipe" Hat so that in another few months when I place my order I can make quick and easily understood reference to it?

The "Straight-Sided Special" perhaps?

Just something... ANYTHING... so that I (and others who I'm sure are drooling over those shots of that hat as we speak) can ask for it without getting into all kinds of "Remember there was that one really cool hat that you made for that one person, oh, I dunno, I think it was back in November and it was REALLY straight on the sides...? etc, etc..."

Y'know what I mean?

Oh, and even though it's implied:


All the Best,
Mitch

Here is the hat that struck my fancy many years ago, and the one I have been chasing ever since. To me this is what the Indy fedora looked like, before it shrunk. And what I strive to replicate, at least in blockshape. If someone makes one closer than my own, I am gonna buy one.



Fedora

Though the crease is obviously different, I see alot of that Raiders screen cap hat in the CS hat, Steve. I'd say you have come closer to that than anyone else ever has.

As an aside, Steve, what would happen if you used a block that had just a slight bit of reverse taper built into it? Would it look bad when it was done and have hyper-reverse taper when put on? Just a thought.

Dave

Well, it is rare indeed. Not so much in the 30's though. Our average skull size has increased.

I guess I'm just old-fashioned.

P.S.- Today I saw a fedora omen while sitting in the turn lane, waiting for the light to change. I happened to glance down at the license plate of the car in front of me, and it was a Mississippi tag from Harrison county! Maybe this means that my hat will be made soon!

The last time this happened was back in April, when I was fraught with anxiety at whether my CS jacket would include all of the correct specs. Then I kept noticing all of these little signs, like cars with Indiana plates, and Jones county tags, street signs that said Jones St., and even a street called (I kid you not) Ravenwood Lane. Well, my jacket arrived soon after, and it was perfect. It made a believer out of me.

I'm so excited about my AB!

As an aside, Steve, what would happen if you used a block that had just a slight bit of reverse taper built into it? Would it look bad when it was done and have hyper-reverse taper when put on? Just a thought.

Yes, you would have way too much. Remember, the reverse taper that we do see in the Indy hat is the SOC hat. And that isn't the same sort of taper we are talking about here. That particular reverse taper is because the hat is bulging in the back. It did not necessarily come from the blockshape itself. I had a vintage HJ that would bulge exactly like the SOC fedora. It was very porous felt, for the lack of a better term. But it was also so old that it was taper proof.

Now, the hat that we have seen, sitting on something, in the Flying wing, behind the scenes video, with the true reverse taper, comes from having the back of the block almost straight up. Not sure if there was a slight taper to the original block, or if it was indeed perfectly straight. But both configurations lend this on that really soft Raiders type felt. But if you go past a certain point,(back taper) you don't get the reverse taper from a soft hat sitting on its brim. So, it is obvious that the original block had minimum taper, or none on the back of the block itself.

Now with that said, I don't believe personally that the original Raiders block was a true 360 stovepipe blockshape. There was some taper, but not to the degree of the later film hats. Transition points generally involve some sort of taper, it is hard not to do so. Front, back, and sides. Nailing the correct amount is the hard part. The radius of those transition points are very difficult to figure out with the hat creased. So, you guess, and you sand your master block. You block a hat, and see what it yields. This one blockshape has almost driven me nuts over the years.

But in the end, it is apparent at least to me, that the hat that captured my imagination years ago started out as a very straight sided hat, especially when compared to the later hats. The key is getting the transition points correct, and the dome the right shape. It may sound simple, but it isn't. Part of the reason is the sort of felt that was used only in the Raiders fedora. Felt plus blockshape yields this hat. If you don't have the same felt, you have to compensate in the block to pull it off. If we magically had the original block, and we pulled one of my bodies over it, and made a hat, it would not be identical to what we see on the screen in blockshape. My felt is stiffer. It would not move the same way. It would probably show more taper. That's the nature of the beast, and WHY it is so difficult to reverse engineer it. Fedora.

Ah, thanks to our local surveyor, here is a side shot of the same hat.



Not much reverse taper going on. If fact, looks to be a bit of taper towards the top of the back crease. Hard to call it though due to the angle of the shot.

Does anyone know when these scenes were shot in reference to when the scenes in the SOC were shot? The dimple in the front of the hat is in the Cairo hat too, so I think-same hat. If the SOC scenes were shot AFTER these, that would explain to some exent as to why that hat bulged so much and seemed to have shrunk a bit and the brim drooped. It had seen some wear at this point. Fedora

looks like we share alot of the same insights steve! good to see i'm not as lost as i thought i was

it looks like the truck chase fedora has got zero flanging left in her no? i agree with you on the back of that hat......there must of been some slight taper in the block. i have zero on my block and i've just done up a rabbit body in her....when i geet some ribbon put on it, i'll see what she yields.

i've been thinking of the dome part as of late. i might need to give lamode a call as i think these hands have had enough of sanding.

Not much flange to the brim at this point.






Man, what a cool looking fedora! Now, THAT'S the hat that I want. But where do you find that particular felt today? I don't think it is made any longer. I once thought the current HJ felt was sorta similiar, but after working with it for so long, I think it isn't. I do think that one vintage HJ that I owned was the right felt though. But it wasn't the Sable color. Another brown they once offered.

That is definetly a 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 brim on that hat. Fedora

Out of curiosity if you had a felt of the same density and weight would it not do the trick?


Steve I think it's really funny that the guy who makes "the" most accurate indy hat still strives for the elusive Raiders hat, and in truth explains why you make such a great fedora. If it were me however it would have lead down a slippery road of insanity a looong time ago

For me the answer to the thread name is yup it sure can...It's a lovely hat and don't get me wrong given your brief it couldn't be any better but it just isn't SA to my eyes. I don't think the Raiders hat was that straight sided.

Cheers

I don't think the Raiders hat was that straight sided.

Each one has their opinion. I respect em'. But please explain why the vintage Poet pictured below has the same blockshape as my blocks. (I stole it). If this isn't proof, what else do you need?

This was a Nut Brown vintage Poet HJ. I changed out the ribbon, cut down the brim, and the first pic shows the shorter ribbon that I put on it. The last pic is as I recieved it from the U.K. with the original ribbon, before I did the ribbon change and ended up selling the hat. The orignal brim was 3 inches all the way around.






While this Poet was indeed medium stiff, I can imagine what a soft hat would look like coming off of the same block used to create the above vintage Poet. And to me, it looks like a dead ringer. But that is my perception only. I could be wrong.

Please, input is valued by me. You don't have to agree with me. I love the diverse opinions. I dismiss some, but I do love to be able to do so. It is what makes this still interesting for myself personally.

I post what I think is evidence, and it is up to each one of you to draw your own conclusions. Oh, the difference in color is because one was taken at night and the other with the white box behind it with much more light. It is the same hat, and I have pics on a cd somewhere that shows this hat from the front with the same ribbon as the second pic. I just had these saved on my photo uploader account from years past and it was convenient to use them instead of digging through scores of cds filled with pics.

Also, notice that the vintage HJ does have just a little bit of taper, front and back. Not as much as most hats though. I have not seen a single vintage block(and I own many) that have such a small amount of taper on the front and back. So, it that aspect, this block is different from most hat blocks used for hats today, that are non western. And I might add, that no vintage block that I own is as straight sided as this HJ is. All have more taper on the sides of the block. So, it that respect this blockshape is certainly different. At least from the American vintage blocks that I own. Now, to me the Raider's fedora is different. When I add 2 and 2, I seem to end up with 4. But as the other poster said this stuff could drive a person nuts. I very well may be!! But it is enjoyable, to be nuts-sometimes.

One last thing. If the up and coming hatters want a hat that matches the captures posted above, sand your block to match what you see on the vintage HJ above. I personally guarantee you will be very pleased with the results. Especially if you can find a decent soft rabbit felt. My feltmaker doesn't sell a suitable rabbit felt to pull off the film look. Once the hat starts to taper a bit with wear, it will morh into the tapered hats we see in Raiders. So, it will stay film accurate for quite awhile, even with the taper. A win, win deal there. On the vintage HJ posted above, when I creased it into the Indy style, it had way too much taper!!!! From the front. I fooled with it, steamed it and got frustrated. This is when I re- learned that a stiff felt doesn't react the same as a soft felt. The top crease actually pulled in the sides of this hat! I could have taken out the stiffener, but that would require me to reblock the hat!! Which would be foolish to do as this was the original Poet block. I could not bring myself to do it. Today, I wish I had kept that hat as I recieved it.

By the way, the rabbit felt on the vintage HJ was some of the best rabbit I have seen, if you disregard the vintage Borsalino's that were in a class of their own back in those days. Fedora

I will not argue with you on hats Fedora, as I am fully aware that you know infinately more on the subject than I do, but I don't see the taper at the back that you were metioning in that second pic. I am guessing that this may be due to that paticular pic, but I would love to see other side shots of that hat. The front taper is about the same as I saw on one of the pictures a member here posted of his henry, and this makes me even more exited about getting mine in a couple of weeks

Regards, Geert

but I don't see the taper at the back that you were metioning in that second pic.

Oh, I agree. I did say it was hard to call. The side shot isn't really dead on, so this must be taken into consideration. And the soft hat is under stress from the back brim being pushed up. Not a good example to use, but I had it, and used it. You do get a look at the back from the earlier photos I posted above, I just don't have those. But the back of the hat is actually pretty straight on the back if you watch the video. It looks much better than the pic that I posted of Indy being dragged. At least we are paying attention here!! Fedora

By the way, don't even consider that HJ sold only Poets. Here is a true vintage HJ.




Now, if someone tells me that is the Raider fedora, I will indeed go insane. I gotta go to work!! Regards, Fedora

Hey, that looks exactly like the Raiders fedora! ;-)

Two more pics of my fav hat.





For the astute, you will notice that this hat did not have a domey dome. It is very obvious, if you have worked with hats, and you don't have to be a hatter to have worked with hats. Many of us here have worked with their own hats. The domey domes were designed for the classic C-dent, porkpies and teardrops. Most of those domey blocks are 6 inches tall and can be creased down to less than 4 inches if you want, with a really deep defined top crease like you see in the Bogey hats. The hats that were designed to be worn originally as open crown hats have a flatter top, generally speaking. But as with anything else, there were always exceptions. I will see if I can take some photos from the Stetson Book, of the hat offered in the early 1900's, like 1902, etc. Not a creased hat in the catalog if I recall correctly. And you will get to see a dozen or so different open crown blocks. Seems every hat in that one catalog were open crown, as that was the style in the late 1800's and early 1900's. And I ain't just talking derbies or bowlers here. Many different open crowned styles. Very few with domey tops. We know the original Poet was created in the late 1800's. That should give you an idea of what hats looked like back then. Stick around, we might all learn something. Knowledge is a good thing-no?


To me, if you popped out the crown on the captures above, you would have a classic late 1800's open crowned hat. And IMO, that is the prime reason the unshrunk Raiders fedora has such a different look to it, when compared to what we see in the old films on TCM. Yeah, I watch it for the hats. Found quite a few tightly pinched front creases by watching that channel. Every thing you can do with a hat, has already been done at some point in time. Nothing new under the sun when it comes to hats. Even the dimensional cut brim from the Indy series. I have one vintage brim flange that is 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. So, while the dimensional cut was indeed rare, it did exist prior to the films. It wasn't anything new is what I am trying to say. Ok, that's it for today. Fedora