Club Obi Wan

I just visited the Swaine Adeney/Herbert Johnson Indiana Jones Hat page, and what do I see? A rather misleading claim. Check this out:

Indiana Jones Hat

Harrison Ford is back in our famous Indy Hat! Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull features the adventure hero in another of our fur felt hats. (emphasis mine)


What's up with that?! Sounds like they're claiming to be the makers of the Indy hat for KotCS! I say Steve and Marc should send them a "cease and desist" letter...

Here's the direct link - http://www.swaineadeney.co.uk/british-h ... index.html

I would. Herbert Johnson lost their bragging rights a long time ago.

Geez, I hope Steve and Marc do something about that! It's false advertising!

Am I wrong or is the bash on this hat rather odd? Looks taller in the back and the side dents go past halfway to the rear.

http://www.swaineadeney.co.uk/catalogue ... uctsPage=1

Yeah. That just adds insult to injury. Poor Herbert Johnson. The legacy is truly gone.

It's true about their legacy. I don't really think most people immediately associate them with Indy at this point. But then again, in AB's defense, they deserve more than that considering the quality and expertise which they provided for KOTSC. Quality and expertise that is simply non-existent over at HJ.

There's more talk on the "current state" of the HJ Poet here -

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?t ... highlight=



Kind regards,
Craig

And I thought all the "confusion" as to who made the new fedora ended months ago .Steve and Marc had to deal with a similar situation with another hatter not too long ago. This is real low. Their marketing is indicative of their product.

Dave

Quality and expertise that is simply non-existent over at HJ

Yeah, it walked out the door with Swales the day he left.

i think i've lost the little respect i've had left for this hatter....so i think i'll just throw out an attack in defense of their AB slander:

"dear makers of HJ hats.....if you'd get off your high horse to actually listen to one indyfan in your lifetime or even rent the movie.......you'll see that your hats truly and definitely (rhymes with luck) for the price you make the consumer pay. your felt is cheap....more than cheap. a cheap hat would be insulted if you compared your felt to him. your sweats are about as comfy as wearing 50 grit sandpaper around your head, you have more stitches in the ribbon than gerry cheevers mask, and the sole reason that anyone buys any of your garbage hats is to have the liner. so save us all some money and just sell your liners to the public cuz thats about all that is good with your product......and since you've been violating indyfans' wallets over the years from all across the globe with your fake hats.....i think you should give us all some liners for free.....and make them circa 1981.....we don't want that white liner with the gold pencil crayon emblem that looks like my daughter drew up.....we want the blue crest......"

whew.....i feel better now. long live AB....the one all, be all hat for indiana jones ;-)

never thought HJ would sink so low. Business not going to well?



CJ

Are Magnoli HJ's still good/high quality/like the movies?

blueoakleyz wrote:Are Magnoli HJ's still good/high quality/like the movies?

They're at least better than a standard HJ: Steve (Fedora) gets the raw materials from HJ and makes a decent hat out of them, if not a more than decent hat, uzing his own block and sewing everything in by hand. He also improves the felt quality.

Regards, Geert

gwyddion wrote:

blueoakleyz wrote:Are Magnoli HJ's still good/high quality/like the movies?

They're at least better than a standard HJ: Steve (Fedora) gets the raw materials from HJ and makes a decent hat out of them, if not a more than decent hat, uzing his own block and sewing everything in by hand. He also improves the felt quality.

Regards, Geert

Yeah I had forgotten

I'm going to have to wait a year or so to get one (it'd be my collectable "this is the real thing" fedora)

So What !?

HJ will always be THE indy hat

there's nothing that can change that.

Dutch_jones wrote:So What !?

HJ will always be THE indy hat

there's nothing that can change that.

I disagree, respectfully, Dutch. HJ maybe be the original Indy hat, but AB will always be THE Indy hat.

DR Ulloa wrote:

Dutch_jones wrote:So What !?

HJ will always be THE indy hat

there's nothing that can change that.

I disagree, respectfully, Dutch. HJ maybe be the original Indy hat, but AB will always be THE Indy hat.

nah those don't remind me of indy hats, no offense to them but Indy 4 IMO does not count as an indy movie.

It's the fact they are saying that the hat Harrison Ford is sporting in Indy IV is a Herbert Johnson that really bugs me.

So, that's "what."

nah those don't remind me of indy hats, no offense to them but Indy 4 IMO does not count as an indy movie.

I understand. But the movie aside, the hats were beautiful. I guess thats why there are so many different hats out there. If you had to recommend someone to buy an HJ then, where would you get it from? Straight from SAB, Todds, or Magnoli? Just wondering which you think is better. They all offer different versions of the Indy hat.

Dave

At least they corrected the previously mispelled name of Spielberg

DR Ulloa wrote:

nah those don't remind me of indy hats, no offense to them but Indy 4 IMO does not count as an indy movie.

I understand. But the movie aside, the hats were beautiful. I guess thats why there are so many different hats out there. If you had to recommend someone to buy an HJ then, where would you get it from? Straight from SAB, Todds, or Magnoli? Just wondering which you think is better. They all offer different versions of the Indy hat.

Dave

IMO the ab does not look like the original indy's hat, and the fact all vendors seem to copy that look for indy hats just isn't right in my opinion,

If I where to get a HJ i would get one from SAb, but thats just because its closer by. But i'm digging the christy's it has the look of the 80's HJ I came to love and thats what I think is important in an indy hat, but thats just me

There have been mixed reviews about the Christy's but I haven't had a problem with mine. I would never pay what SAB are charging for the Poet, but the Christy's is essentially the same hat at a fraction of the price. I love it. The felt isn't all that great, but the hat is soft, floppy and nails the Raiders look. I'd go with a Christy's before you buy anything from SAB.

Dave

I regret buying my Todd's HJ. While Todd offers great items at an affordable price, including the HJ, the block shape is pretty bad. I bought this before I knew anything about taper, ribbon or felt quality. The hat is still a very nice fedora, but lacks the qualities most fans are looking for in a hat of that cost. It's too bad Todd doesn't have a block more like Magnoli's. The IM/HJ seems to offer most of the features one would expect of a true Indy Hat.

whipitgood wrote:I regret buying my Todd's HJ. While Todd offers great items at an affordable price, including the HJ, the block shape is pretty bad. I bought this before I knew anything about taper, ribbon or felt quality. The hat is still a very nice fedora, but lacks the qualities most fans are looking for in a hat of that cost. It's too bad Todd doesn't have a block more like Magnoli's. The IM/HJ seems to offer most of the features one would expect of a true Indy Hat.

Depends on what you expect from an indy hat wihpitgood. I don't own any Todd's or Swaine Adney Brigg's HJ but if it's any close to the current Chiristie's then you do get a more than decent indy hat (perhaps closer than many other higher priced offerings)... not that I would pay £190 for a Christy... matter of factly the Christy's costs only 50 quids (almost 1/4 of HJ).
With a decent bash, it's a very very good looking Indy hat.

dutch, i agree with you that HJ is the original hat and that alone is a heavy selling feature. the modern day poet will serve to give you a nice LC hat, and perhaps a TOD hat if you could ever find which hat in which scene was actually an HJ. but this forum loves the raiders hat....you can't win without it. even the maker of the CS hat prefers the raiders hat

but the HJ raiders hat is long gone. today's HJ block will not produce a raiders hat. SAB and HJ don't care in revising their design because they think any brown hat with a light brown ribbon is an indy hat (another knock against them is that they're ribbon isn't even the right colour).....for god sakes, look at the pic they are advertising! i was hoping that the AC/Fedora challenge came about just to see how much magic AC can put into the bash. i've played around with my 3rd HJ to the point of ruining it so i know for a fact that it won't work. you can't get away from the block's taper....front/back/sides........just too much of it.

if anyone gives me a 360 view of the current HJ poet and claims to have the right raiders bash, i can point out exactly where the inconsistency is and also match it up to a screen grab....if you like. i'm sure $3K can do the same....and i don't have to tell you that oak, steve and marc can....(but boys....give us the reverse taper we want in the back please....just need to straighten out the rear of the block a little ;-) )

they're current hats should be displayed, not worn....and displayed crown down so everyone can see the logo; cuz that's all they are good for.

(my comments exclude the IMHJ of course).

Dutch I frankly think you're missing the point. You may dislike the AB and be a fan of HJ, no problem at all, everybody have their own tastes. And yes, the HJ is the original IJ hat, so probabily HJ may be considered more "authentic" than the AB -- even if HJ's quality has lowered since its golden age.

BUT they state that they made the hats for the IV movie, and this is a BIG LIE. we're not talking about opinions, we are not talking about which hat is better, we are talking about the fact that HJ claims that the hats shown in KotCS are its own! that's a fact, not an opinion.

Has somebody alerted Marc and Steve? maybe they missed this topic. they have to be informed, this could be a legal issue.

Ok, Dutch, you don't like the AB. You like to bring that up at every opportunity. We get it. Back on topic, please, folks.

Restless Dreamer wrote: Has somebody alerted Marc and Steve? maybe they missed this topic. they have to be informed, this could be a legal issue.

Well it's a serious legal issue but I can't resist from chuckling at Swaine Adney Brigg's desperate last attempt to get some customers, I mean, is anybody still buying from them? (at £190)
Anyway don't loose yours socks, this sort of "claims" are almost the norm in the indygear world. I'm sure Steve will notice it soon enough.

.....not just steve and marc.......how bout lucasfilm???

erri.......i think that's the best avatar you've had.......that's chopped full of character sir!!!

Indiana G wrote:.....not just steve and marc.......how bout lucasfilm???

I bet they wouldn't dare touch the Prince's shop
Well, it's no surprise that Lucas lawyers are not on them yet... they are only after people who make profits and I have the impression that SAB hasn't sold a hat in a long time (before IndyIV they put the price at 195 and is already 5 quids down).

Indiana G wrote:erri.......i think that's the best avatar you've had.......that's chopped full of character sir!!!

thank you G, first one to compliment my avatar. I agree, it's possibly the best one yet. I was thinking to change it with a funny thing but after this compliment I guess it will stay some more
Thanks again

Erri wrote:

whipitgood wrote:I regret buying my Todd's HJ. While Todd offers great items at an affordable price, including the HJ, the block shape is pretty bad. I bought this before I knew anything about taper, ribbon or felt quality. The hat is still a very nice fedora, but lacks the qualities most fans are looking for in a hat of that cost. It's too bad Todd doesn't have a block more like Magnoli's. The IM/HJ seems to offer most of the features one would expect of a true Indy Hat.

Depends on what you expect from an indy hat wihpitgood. I don't own any Todd's or Swaine Adney Brigg's HJ but if it's any close to the current Chiristie's then you do get a more than decent indy hat (perhaps closer than many other higher priced offerings)... not that I would pay £190 for a Christy... matter of factly the Christy's costs only 50 quids (almost 1/4 of HJ).
With a decent bash, it's a very very good looking Indy hat.

I still think for the price I paid for my HJ, I should of went with a Magnoli. His HJ's are superior at about the same price. The block shape doesn't seem to have the taper of the Todd's and IM's comes with an SA ribbon and free styling. This isn't a Todd bashing as I think what he does and offers to Indy fans is incredible, but just not in the fedora department. I had to pay $25 to have a SOC bash and I had to take my hat to another hatter to have a more SA ribbon put on which cost me another $25. When all is said and done, I don't think it was worth it when and AB isn't that much more. Actually a Penman is superior and cheaper than any recent HJ I've seen. I plan on making this my next hat once I get some financial stuff sorted out. Don't get me wrong, I think my HJ is a fine hat, but it's most definitely not a ROLA fedora. It serves better as a TOD.

The Mag HJ is $305 shipped. I believe that's less than Todd's.

Ah yes for the price you paid, whipitgood, you could have bought even a beaver felt hat! I don't deny that and I don't blame you for being annoyed.
Concerning the shape... what's most screen accurate is just a matter of taste (like everything around here of course). Shame you didn't risk bashing it yourself, it's quite fun... once you start you can't stop lol

Restless Dreamer wrote:Dutch I frankly think you're missing the point. You may dislike the AB and be a fan of HJ, no problem at all, everybody have their own tastes. And yes, the HJ is the original IJ hat, so probabily HJ may be considered more "authentic" than the AB -- even if HJ's quality has lowered since its golden age.

BUT they state that they made the hats for the IV movie, and this is a BIG LIE. we're not talking about opinions, we are not talking about which hat is better, we are talking about the fact that HJ claims that the hats shown in KotCS are its own! that's a fact, not an opinion.

Has somebody alerted Marc and Steve? maybe they missed this topic. they have to be informed, this could be a legal issue.

Well I think HJ supplied hats for indy 4 and being rejected obviously , but the fact they did make hats for the movie, is something they can advertise, as Baron Hats did. to claim its their hats you're seeing on screen is another thing and wrong for that matter

Ohw Come on ! This is not a legal issue as Marc and Steve don't have the right to sell theirs as the Indy 4 hat.
I don't know how it all works exactly but they cannot claim it I think, neither can Tony Nowak with his jackets, or Peter for That Matter, thats why they got the legal Eagles after them in the first place.

If it was a legal issue it would be with Lucasfilm, AB and all other hats are copying the Poet from HJ to begin with.

Dutch, they aren't claiming they made hats for Indy 4, they are claiming that Indy is "featur[ed]...in one of our hats" in the film. That is a flat-out lie.

And besides, they DIDN'T make hats for Indy 4- they submitted a hat for consideration as the supplier (if even that - Marc or Steve correct me), and were one of the first to be thrown out of the running for making the film hat.

dutch, perhaps you are referring to the fact that steve, marc and tony do not own the "officially licenced" rights and therefore cannot claim any trademark ties to their products. that is correct.

yes, you cannot take away the fact that HJ supplied hats for 4 movies, 3 of them using their hatts, and the 4th movie needing an example of what not to use in a movie. you also cannot take away the fact that AB beat out the contenders to supply hats and likewise with mr. nowak beating out the other competitors for the jacket.

all in all, if we followed the "rules" and bought only officially licenced products, this hobby would of died out along time ago.......probably about the time when HJ made their last decent raiders hat.

Dutch_jones wrote: Ohw Come on ! This is not a legal issue as Marc and Steve don't have the right to sell theirs as the Indy 4 hat.
I don't know how it all works exactly but they cannot claim it I think, neither can Tony Nowak with his jackets, or Peter for That Matter, thats why they got the legal Eagles after them in the first place.

If it was a legal issue it would be with Lucasfilm, AB and all other hats are copying the Poet from HJ to begin with.

you are wrong. steve and marc never claimed officially that they make THE INDY HAT. they claim they are those who made Indy IV hat, and this is true and undeniable. as the akubra federation does not claim theirs is a Indy's hat, but that, if shaped the right way, may look like Indy's fedora.

and nobody copies the Poet. to copy means to replicate something exactly the way it is. I don't think an AB is a copy of the Poet: no way!

Restless Dreamer wrote:

Dutch_jones wrote: Ohw Come on ! This is not a legal issue as Marc and Steve don't have the right to sell theirs as the Indy 4 hat.
I don't know how it all works exactly but they cannot claim it I think, neither can Tony Nowak with his jackets, or Peter for That Matter, thats why they got the legal Eagles after them in the first place.

If it was a legal issue it would be with Lucasfilm, AB and all other hats are copying the Poet from HJ to begin with.

you are wrong. steve and marc never claimed officially that they make THE INDY HAT. they claim they are those who made Indy IV hat, and this is true and undeniable. as the akubra federation does not claim theirs is a Indy's hat, but that, if shaped the right way, may look like Indy's fedora.

and nobody copies the Poet. to copy means to replicate something exactly the way it is. I don't think an AB is a copy of the Poet: no way!

You didnt read what I posted I never said they claimed it I said They can;'t claim it, YES they are copying it, they are copying the raiders hat and thus the poet !

Indiana G wrote:dutch, perhaps you are referring to the fact that steve, marc and tony do not own the "officially licenced" rights and therefore cannot claim any trademark ties to their products. that is correct.

They don't need of an "official licenced right" to sell their own products! It's not AB that sells Indiana jones hat: it's Indiana Jones that chose to wear AB!! It's the opposite perspective!!

To Semi-Quote "SockTube"

"Hmmmm... Swaine Adeney/Herbert Johnson Website making a misleading claim about the Indiana Jones Hat from "The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" being one of THEIRS, eh?"

"...But, things aren't ALWAYS what they seem...!"

"...No, wait is IS... actually it IS exactly what it seemed..."



Or, maybe Swaine Adeney/Herbert Johnson should take a page from SockTube Mac's line"

"Jownzie! I BETRAYED you Jownzie!"

*wink*
;-)

Dutch_jones wrote: You didnt read what I posted I never said they claimed it I said They can;'t claim it,

well, they don't do it. So what? I don't see the point

YES they are copying it, they are copying the raiders hat and thus the poet !

I frankly think you're taking this thing too much seriously. cm'on, seems like you're on a crusade for defending HJ I really don't want to make you nervous or causing flames, so sorry if something I said sounded provocative to you.

BTW we are again OT. as I said before, the point is: HJ is making misleading claims. that's undeniable, don't you think?

Restless Dreamer wrote: BTW we are again OT. as I said before, the point is: HJ is making misleading claims. that's undeniable, don't you think?

AGREED

Dutch_jones wrote:If it was a legal issue it would be with Lucasfilm, AB and all other hats are copying the Poet from HJ to begin with.

I thought you said the AB looked nothing like an HJ or an Indy hat.

If that's the case, it doesn't seem as though they are copying the HJ Poet design, don't you think?

Dave

Steve has said many times he used vintage HJ's to help come up with his Raiders block shape.

I can't comment on his CS block, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's his own modified block?

The CS block is indeed one of his own modified blocks. The funny thing is that Steve was still tweaking his Raiders block, but when Bernie liked the hats that came off his transitional block, he had to keep that block shape as it was for all the CS hats. He did continue to perfect his Raiders block, though he kept the CS block design, too.

Looks like somebody at SAB got the word about the false advertising on this. The offending text is simply gone, as if it were never there.

Glad it is down, the false claims. But with that said, I stole their original Poet blockshape, so........ But I also understand that blockshapes are not infinite in shape, and other hatters had this this same blockshape once upon a time. Folks, there is truly nothing new in hatting.

And it is funny that Bernie picked a block that was unfinished. The front view was good, but I was about to add bondo to the front and back to get rid of a bit of taper. Once he picked it, I just had it replicated in all the sizes by Lamode. It started out as a very rare vintage block, and I had tweaked the front view, and as I said, was about to build up the back and front. So the CS fedora is basically a number 4 block, used for open crown hats way, way back. But with some tweaks on the transition points as viewed from the front.

If it doesn't match up with the other film hats, all I can say is great!!! It is still Indy enough, that folks besides ourselves would never know the difference. But, personally, I like it much better in most scenes than I do the TOD, or TLC hat. For the astute eye, there is no continuity in hats from the first film to the last. When Stetson threw in their own hats, in a couple of the films, it didn't help. But a Stetson fan would be very happy.

They looked for the right hat for almost 6 months. We came in at the very end, and our hats ended the quest for them. If we were not in the ballpark, they would have kept looking. And this pleases Marc and myself to no end, by the way. It validated in spades what we were doing. The original hatmaker was dismissed early on by the way. Too much taper, and the felt was not substantial enough, and the quality.......well, that has been mentioned already. HJ lovers can blame SAB. Not AB.


They did not want the Raiders fedora, and our Raider blocks were passed over for the other blocks that we sent in, and thought would please them more, per conversations. Still a bit sqaurer than TLC fedora, but also seen to be very Indy in looks. As Bernie said, there are nuances in the costume over the 3 films, and he threw in another nuance. Spielberg loved it, and the rest is history. Fedora

This is not a legal issue as Marc and Steve don't have the right to sell theirs as the Indy 4 hat.

Dead wrong my friend. Since that is our hat, we do indeed have the right to sell an Indy 4 hat. No once else does, EXCEPT the Official Licensed fedora.

I told em' send me a couple million bucks, and I will stop making em' ! We signed no agreements NOT to offer these hats for sale. In fact, we signed nothing.

SAB can still legally sell their hats, using the Indy name, because they(the production) bought HJs for the first 3 films. You can't stop the maker from NOT selling what you made for them.


Perception is everything regarding the costume. Dutch doesn't think we are even in the ballpark. But Dutch may not be an astute observer. Not saying that he is not, but face it, opinions are like....., well, you know......everyone has one. And thank goodness we can voice it. I have no hard feeling towards Dutch. He has an opinon. I respect it.

I remake Magnoli's HJ's for little or nothing, because I am enamored with the HJ name, while realizing that the HJ of today is not the HJ of Swale's era. It is a hat in NAME only. You know how many different factories have made those HJs over the years? You probably can't count them on your fingers. Someone else made the HJs to begin with. HJ hasn't made a hat in decades. Probably since right before WW2. WW2 destroyed the hatting industry in the U.K. Their Empire had to tool up and make their own hats, due to the war. So who actually made the Raiders fedora? We will probably never know, because that hat factory is more than likely out of business, like scores of other hat factories. All Swales did was to change out the ribbon and handcut the dimensional brims. So, the actual hat could have been made in South Africa, or Australia, or anywhere else on the globe. Yep, HJ was selling other folk's hats!! That is the way the business works. Fedora

Sorry to bring this up, but i am on crossroads about this one. Is SAB Poet different from HJ Poet?

No