"Whips" vs Quality Whips

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:36 am

There has been a rash of threads lately either asking about or discussing the Todd's costume whip or the EBay whips.
In my short time here, I have seen this topic come up alot and think it deserves some preventative discussion as opposed to "treatment on the spot" when a post is made.

First off, I propose to make a video using a belt, a length of leather and a cracker and make the belt do the 4 basic cracks...... I havent tried this yet, but I plan on doing it. Why? To demonstrate that just because something might crack, doesnt make it a whip.

Herein lies our debate. Many new comers want to get the cheapest thing they can for various reasons. Often you hear, they want to get something cheap to learn on. While its true that a quality nylon whip can be had for around the price of an ebay whip, the functionality of the two whips is vastly different. When i refer to nylon whips, I am referring to those made by a quality maker such as Steven Huntress, Chris Hall etc. There are others but do a little research before buying from a maker or you may run into the situation I did with my two RJAllen whips.

The point to this is that there is more to a QUALITY bullwhip than the ability to crack. As Bullwhipborton said in another post, the whip should do some of the work for you. You simply cannot learn good technique on a cheap whip.

As I have mentioned many times, My background is in swords. We in the sword world have a term to discribe Stainless steel wallhanger swords; "Sword Like Object".....
I think we could modify that term here and refer to these non-whips as Whip Like Objects.
Sure they LOOK like a whip, but there, the similarities end.

My point in this thread is not to bash any makers product, but I think any newcomer should be greated with CORRECT information instead of "hype" over a incorrectly marketed item.
I was very lucky when I came on board to first meet "TheFish" who led me to Paul Nolan, Lauren Wickline, joe Strain, Bernardo Del Carpio etc.....
They all have loaded me down with a wealth of REAL knowledge and I was lucky enough to have to go thru the "Whip Like Object" phase.
I could only wish the same for others...

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:14 am

I agree but this "Whips Like Objects" work very well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKazhZSDXkE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgW1fsrdt_0

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:25 am

Seems to me that your point is to bash other peoples work, namely mine.
There are countless others on this forum that use and like my whips.
My feedback on ebay is impeccable. The final owner of the whip you returned (after two months of enjoying it I might add), said it is the best whip he ever cracked and has a Steve huntress whip. He ordered another.
If you dont like my whips...fine. Please leave me out of your threads.
Furthermore here is your own message to me after recieving your whip.
"the whip arrived today!
LOVE IT!
MAN this is a FAST lil whip eh? that long handle really does alot for the handling!
Thank you again!
Thank you,
David Stokes"
That was on June 26.
After 2 months of abuse I still let you return it. I made you another longer, heavier whip and only charged you $25 for the 200 ft of cord as it was a special color. Then when you didn't like that one I sold it for you and got most of your money back for you on ebay. So...you only ordered one whip from me, destroyed it and now after all this you still feel the need to bash me here.
Well, search this forum and get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th opinions.
Check my feedback on ebay here http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... llFeedback
Again...of all the whips I have sold all over the country, and in 7 countries world wide you are the only person to have a problem.
All of my whips come with an unconditional 7 day money back guarntee.
R

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:18 pm

rjallen70 wrote:Seems to me that your point is to bash other peoples work, namely mine.
There are countless others on this forum that use and like my whips.
My feedback on ebay is impeccable. The final owner of the whip you returned (after two months of enjoying it I might add), said it is the best whip he ever cracked and has a Steve huntress whip. He ordered another.
If you dont like my whips...fine. Please leave me out of your threads.
Furthermore here is your own message to me after recieving your whip.
"the whip arrived today!
LOVE IT!
MAN this is a FAST lil whip eh? that long handle really does alot for the handling!
Thank you again!
Thank you,
David Stokes"
That was on June 26.
After 2 months of abuse I still let you return it. I made you another longer, heavier whip and only charged you $25 for the 200 ft of cord as it was a special color. Then when you didn't like that one I sold it for you and got most of your money back for you on ebay. So...you only ordered one whip from me, destroyed it and now after all this you still feel the need to bash me here.
Well, search this forum and get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th opinions.
Check my feedback on ebay here http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... llFeedback
Again...of all the whips I have sold all over the country, and in 7 countries world wide you are the only person to have a problem.
Bugger off, and go back to promoting the katana whip and your ridiculous whip-kata.
R

Ron,
I am really sorry you feel that way.
I reread my above post and I dont see ANYWHERE in there anything that could be misconstrued as "bashing"?

this
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... gegap2.jpg
and this
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... gegap3.jpg
are not my opinion....... its right there!
my opinion did not make that plaiting uneven.
my opinion did not make the strands at the end tip loose.

Also, im not quit sure how you are saying that i was destructive to the whips, that is , unless, you consider cracking them to be abuse. If that is the case, you should prehaps include a statement telling your customers that your whips are not designed to be cracked because thats all i did with them.... in fact, the second one, was hardly cracked.

I also dont understand you calling my whipcracking "ridiculous" because at NO POINT have i EVER stated what im doing is "perfect" or "right". in fact most cases I am asking for opinions and critiques.
prehaps you should do the same........
I really wish you would not take my CRITIQUES as insults and listen to what im trying to say. By brushing off my comments you are, in a sense, telling us that you feel your craft is perfected and that you have no more to learn? is that correct?

Please understand I have said NOTHING out of malice towards YOU, i am merely offering a "consumer report" on a product i received. I cannot in good conscious recommend them to others.
This is not a bash, simply fact based off my experience.
Had I only handled ONE of your whips, this arguement would not hold up, but since i have handled two, and both were fairly consistent , i would assume that is simply the way you make all of your whips.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:25 pm

This community has a wide variety of whip interest, there are those just curious about them, to the casual Indy fans to die hard profession whip handlers and whip makers who make a living doing this, as such we have to keep a balance of sorts but there is room for everyone. If someone coming into this hobby wants a inexpensive whip to use a costume piece or to occasionally play with it and knock off a crack with to impress their friend then that’s fine, but if that same person wants to try to really learn and understand how to use a whip with proficiency and accuracy, I am not going to lie to them. You should have the right equipment for the job, by doing so you will get better results.

This quality debate is anything but new, its come up more times then I can count. Even though you will have better luck with a quality whip made by an experienced and knowledgeable whip maker, if something is made to be a whip, it’s a whip; quality has nothing to do with that. So I don’t really go for the "Whip Like Object" phrase.

As David Morgan would say

Less expensive whips can be made by using cheaper leathers, or the poor parts of a skin or side, by using cheaper cores, or by making the whip light, so using less leather. Shape or taper of the less expensive whips is normally poor. The more consistent shape is with rope cores, although the rope makes a less dense whip. These whips can be improved somewhat by making a wide fall narrower, or by putting a good fall, sized to suit the thong, on the whip, with a suitable popper. A light whip, or rope core whip, can be improved by saturation with leather dressing. But do not expect too much from a less expensive whip (or an expensive whip made by someone with little experience.) Compare them with violins or cigars -- there are uses for $50.00 violins or 5 cent cigars, but the best use is as stage props or wall hangers.

A good whip handler can also do wonders even with a poorly made whip, so Kooniu, something tells me I could give you a piece of rope nailed to a wood handle and you could make it look good, It may be fun to play too with but that doesn’t make a whip like that really appropriate for someone who has never used a whip to learn with and who wants to get good at it, or let alone use to cut a flower our of someone’s mouth with, and I think most would agree with that.

There is as wide a variety of whips available today as there are people who use them, and their reasons for doing so. Whips ranging from $5 whips to the sky’s the limit. Mass-produced quantity whips like the infamous Mexican swivel handled bullwhips and the eBay POS specials aside, there are a lot of different whip makers with a different of skill and quality levels. Most of them price their work accordingly with their work, which improves with each whip they make, but at the same time I’ve seen whips go up for sale that where absolute rubbish, while the whip maker honestly thought they where the next Cecil Henderson or John McMaster’s of whip making. I can understand being proud of your work, as one should be but if your at the point where you think your whips are good enough to charge people money for them, well If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen and not everyone is going to like the product you put out.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear thought, there is no room on this bullwhip forum for personal bashing, attacking or belittling someone else work for what ever reason. If there is a quality issue or if someone has a bad experience with a whip maker, or supplier, That’s another story. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with stating facts and explaining your own experience with a company /craftsmen, even if that experience was a negative one, as long as it is done tactfully, professionally and with some diplomacy.

Rjallen, reading Shagbd’s first post with out with out prior bias, I didn’t sense any hostility or bashing directed at you or your whips. Clearly he had a bad experience with you though. I don’t know the whole situation on who did what and how the whip(s) in question got that way, but a well-made nylon whip is supposed to be able to take some extra abuse that you wouldn’t do with a leather whip. If I received a whip with those issues in the photos or if a whip I was using developed those issues after a short time of using it, I wouldn’t be very happy either. Rjallen I am sure there are countless other whip handlers who are very pleased with your whips, but everyone of us is also human and even the best whip makers in the world make mistakes with out realizing it and bad whips get sent out on rare occasion if thats the case… If you two have issues with each other though take them too private, Airing dirty laundry and taking shots like that on a public forum is unprofessional and only makes you look bad. Making those types of public comments about a customer that is unhappy with the work and service you provided, only makes me and I am sure others potential customer think twice about buying a whip from you based on that alone, regardless of whether or not work was taking first place in the Sydney Royal or the Glenn Innes whip making competitions.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:01 pm

Well said BWB...
That being said, there was a post by shagbad that was a review of the whip in question. I was fine with that. He deleted it.
I took offence at having my name mentioned in accordance with his "whip like object" comment. As per my previous post, it is fine that he does not like the whip. I did my best and bent over backwards to make it right.
There are plenty of others that do like them including the one in question.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0297515094

On June 16th he left this feedback for Steve Huntress ala Jabbahutt70
"love this whip. I have lots of leather whips and this throws better every one"
Pretty high praise indeed.
On sept 1 he left this feedback fo me on this very whip
"This is the best nylon whip I have thrown. Fast shipping and great whip.. Thanks"
Does this mean that my whips are better that Steve's? Of course not.
Does it mean that everyone has an opinion and that they differ at times? Yes. It does. The one fact remains...over 100 whips and 2 complaints from the same guy. Seems to me that is the common denominator.
Too bad we can't all spend a few thousand dollars on some of the best made whips in the world...then we could all be experts like shagbad.
Ron

hollywood1340 · Post by **hollywood1340** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:52 pm

On a related tangent I know of of one whip cracking group that does have a solid definition of what a "whip" is. That may be a good starting point?

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:05 pm

well, they obviously don't like your whips. Whether that is bashing or not is EXTREMELY subjective in my point of view. Even though they will not recommend your whips, I think they are trying not to make fun or call people names, which would be flaming. Probably depends on how someone defines bashing.

verb. bashed, bash·ing, bash·es

3. (Informal usage) To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly: "He bashed the . . . government unmercifully over the . . . spy affair" (Lally Weymouth).

ok, I'm stepping out from the middle of this argument...

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:27 pm

Ron, I understand your position and why you might take some offence. Clearly you try to make the best whips you can and you’re proud of that, it also sounds like you have a well-received customer base. While I do see some legitimate concerns with the whip pictured, Quality aside and whether or not those issues were the result of the maker or user, taking public shots at other members is not appreciated here at Club Obi Wan for what ever reason and taking shots like that at a dissatisfied customer can’t be good for business either.

Whip cracking is with out a doubt a very personnel thing, passions often run high and not every whip will suit every person for many reasons. Any professional whip maker can tell you that at some point, For what ever reason they have had customers who didn’t like their work. Maybe it was the whip, maybe it was the customer, either way it’s hard not to take that personally when you put your heart into a project and you are doing the best you can. Backing your product and explaining yourself is one thing, Firing back with insulting innuendo and distasteful comments is another, and won’t help the matter so I expect that to stop here after this post. If the two of you have issues, keep it civil or take it to private or just keep your distance from each other, Otherwise I have no problem locking down this thread.

You are right though Ron, It’s very easy to compare and contrast whips by different makers and some just do better work then others, that’s just the way it goes but there is room here for all. Because of that wide range of workmanship and quality It has to be up to the consumer to do their homework to find the best whips and whip makers to suit them. Yes, tastes change as well as evolve and real expertise & experience is something you earn, not buy. Keep in mind though while it is impossible to please everyone all the time, dealing with those situations in a professional manner is important too if you’re going to put yourself out there and take money from someone to sell a product.

Bigrex, your right and for that reason we have some pretty well set ground rules on what is considered flaming and baiting at Club Obi Wan. It’s one thing to say “I don’t like so and so’s whips because... 1. The sets are unevenly cut and the strands poorly dropped, 2. The plaiting seam spirals around the whip or 3. The whip has a lumpy uneven taper and awkward weight; or that “I had a poor experience with so and so business for such and such a reason and I won’t recommend his products any more because of that”. That is a lot different then saying "I don’t like so and so’s whips because they are terrible and fall apart and the maker is a real jerk who doesn’t know what they are doing, who do they think they are!” And for the record I am not referring to anyone in particular when I say that, I am just making a broad generalization for an example.

Hollywood, I think the main problem with that suggestion is who’s to say what a whip is or isn’t, and what exactly qualifies a whip to be a whip for a solid definition? Cambridge Dictionary of American English defines a whip as a piece of leather or rope fastened to a stick, used to train and control animals or, esp. in the past, to hit people… Webster's Dictionary defines a whip as "an instrument consisting usually of a handle and lash forming a flexible rod that is used for whipping... That pretty much includes everything from bullwhip, cow whips, stock whip and snake whips signal whips to quirts, floggers, flagrum scourges, cat-o-9 tails, to coach whips, buggy whips, lunge whips, etc, etc. Trying to tell a group what is or is not consider a “real” whip is asking for trouble and comes off as a bit to elitist if you ask me. Besides If some one like David Morgan or Gordie Pier considers a whip a whip even if its made from braided oiled tree bark or twisted pulverized wood fibers, so do I.

Dan

minstrel · Post by **minstrel** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:23 am

BullWhipBorton has pretty much expressed what I felt and thought when I first read through this thread, but I have a little something to add in regard to the original post and the original purpose of this thread:

The sword forum which used the term "Sword Like Object" has stopped using that, to my knowledge, to be more politically correct and also to not make newcomers who only have stainless steel wallhangers feel bad. Nowadays they call them "Decorative Sword Collectibles", which sounds better, but is essentially the same thing. They are not meant to be swung like a sword or used for cutting targets because of the materials used and the general construction of the sword. Many wallhangers would break and could send the blade flying out of the handle if used for anything else than as a wall decoration.

However, I don't think this applies to whips. Even cheap whips are meant to be used as whips, even if they don't handle and perform as well as a top quality whip from an experienced whip maker. And as BullWhipBorton says, how do you distinguish a "whip" from something which is only "whip like"? What is a whip? How do you define this in a satisfactory manner? And as has already been stated above, even what might be considered low quality whips have uses.

When I was considering buying a whip, I looked at whips on eBay and on various sites on the Internet, and did my own comparison. I liked the looks of some whips and thought others looked bad. Based on my own judgement, I decided that I couldn't afford the whips I liked, and didn't like the whips I could afford, which led me to making my own whips instead. That way, I got a whip I could afford, and it looked as good as I could make it (which, in my humble opinion, is better than the look of the cheaper whips I was looking at).

Others may not have the inclination to make their own whips, and may be too impatient or unable to save up for an expensive high quality whip. For those, getting a cheap whip is a viable option and I don't think it's fair to pass judgement on that choice.

Just my 2 cents.

/Nicholas

IndyWhips · Post by **IndyWhips** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:00 am

BullWhipBorton wrote: A good whip handler can also do wonders even with a poorly made whip, so Kooniu, something tells me I could give you a piece of rope nailed to a wood handle and you could make it look good, .

Dan that really made me laugh..

....have you got a confession to make about super dooper across the big pond ultra vision, you spying on us folks here across the pond?.......

Kooniu was showing me several months ago exactly what Shagbd was talking about in the OP....a whip that is a belt....actually no sorry it's a belt that turns into a whip....

And you are totally correct....he made it look good taking it through a whole range of cracks....

Tony ;-)

kooniu · Post by **kooniu** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:43 am

Dan, of course good whipcracker can will use every one whip, but I assure if you will make whip from pice of rope correctly, and good balanced, with the whip everyone will crack

PyramidBlaster · Post by **PyramidBlaster** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:27 am

I usually don't chime in on such subjects, but I feel I must at this point.

A little background: I've been handling whips for 21 years now. I'm self-taught, using a 12' cowhide whip from the now-defunct 'Cattle Baron Leather' company in Texas. The whip was a basic, sturdy whip, not as finely made as something like a Morgan or Strain, but certainly not a novelty or wallhanger. I literally wore the thing out after cracking it for years....So I began making my own in 1994.

When I started, it was only to see how whips were made---I was curious if I could make my own and have them turn out as well as the ones I was seeing (and using). After the first one, I still had doubts, but could see the potential.

So, undeterred, I continued. I got a lot of feedback, pretty much all of which was glowing praise that urged me to start selling them. I thought about it, but decided against it. I knew that even though they looked really nice and worked very well, they simply weren't ready. I knew I'd sell them and people would complain about something---They'd find something. Because you simply can't please them all.

A couple of years ago, I began working in Nylon, after being very resistant to the idea for years. I saw how well these whips could work, and how close in quality they could be to 'the pros', whatever that means. It was a little bit of a learning process, but I ended up reinventing my style.

This year I've been tempted once again to make whips for sale. And once again, even though I've literally been making them for almost 15 years, the same argument convinced me not to...That even though I knew lots of people would enjoy them, I knew there would always be a group who wouldn't---probably no matter how I made them.

This is part of doing business. Rjallen, know that the legendary P.T. Barnum said it best when he said, "You can't please all the people all of the time." There will always be complaints, the important thing is to not get stuck on them. Learn what you can from the experience, and move onwards and upwards. A ratio of 100:2 is amazing in any sales-oriented environment.

Shagbd: Where do I start? I think you mean well, but maybe you're not expressing your frustration as well as you'd like. When I read your original post, I took it to mean that pretty much all but the very pinnacle of whipmaking not only shouldn't be bought, but wasn't even to be considered a whip at all. This is patently wrong, for a number of reasons...Now, I don't know if you intended it that way, but that's how it came across--and apparently not just to me, either. The fact of the matter is that whips are both a tool foremost, AND an art form. They were conceived as a tool first, then the artistry came in time. As such, I'm a practical man. If a whip works well, I will consider it a success, no matter what it looks like, OR what it's made from. Heck, if you want to look at it that way---that the whip is a tool, first and foremost--it could be argued that Nylon construction wins the argument HANDS DOWN. I like both, but I harbor no illusions. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. Not everyone can (or cares to) afford the finest. In fact, for someone who's just starting out, there could even be a point of diminishing returns to this regard.

Bear in mind that each whip is an art piece that is like no other---even matched pairs are going to have differences. That's just the nature of the thing. Also take into consideration that masters of the trade like Mr. Morgan did not start out making the masterpieces---in fact, I'm sure there was a time in Mr. Morgan's life where, not only did he not know what a Whip was, he had NO IDEA of how to go about making one. People like Rjallen and myself are somewhere in between, and discouraging our work by intimating that they aren't real whips is not only false, but serves to discourage newer makers from trying their hand at it, at all.

My advice? Try making a whip yourself---either Nylon OR leather. Then you'll have a better perspective. And maybe a little more humility (it is, after all, a very humbling experience--but an exciting one, at that!)

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:46 am

My intention?

My original intention of this post was just to start a discussion. and for that, i think it has blossomed very well.
Beyond that, it matters very little to me what anyone considers a whip or not....
thats the great thing about this hobby and any other like it.... its a very personal hobby..... make of it what you will...... buy what you will..... its YOUR hobby...

im sorry if i caused any animosity, my only intention was to start a friendly discussion. and i think that part worked.

)

Carry on, keep the opinions coming!

Bardoon · Post by **Bardoon** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:38 pm

Shagbd wrote:My intention?

My original intention of this post was just to start a discussion. and for that, i think it has blossomed very well.
Beyond that, it matters very little to me what anyone considers a whip or not....
thats the great thing about this hobby and any other like it.... its a very personal hobby..... make of it what you will...... buy what you will..... its YOUR hobby...

im sorry if i caused any animosity, my only intention was to start a friendly discussion. and i think that part worked.

)

Carry on, keep the opinions coming!

Perhaps next time...just leave out names so your intentions won't get misintepreted. I've seen it turn around very badly both on the internet and in real life when names are used. Just a suggestion.

I believe when it comes down to it, it is a very simple question for those who want a whip: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR WHIP?

Are you hanging it on your belt to be Indy? Do you intend to actually crack it? Do you intend to LEARN the more complex and complicated cracks? You have to ask yourself many questions before you make your decision and then from there you have to ask yourself ADDITIONAL questions: whipmaker? price? care and handling?

I got my whip predominately because I was interested in the art of whipcracking. I had at first ordered a Todd's Deluxe Whip, then rethought about it because I wanted to actually whip-crack as opposed to a costume piece. I cancelled my order and now I'm 2 Strains and 1 DelCarpio deep. But my focus is in the art of whipcracking and to do that, I needed a geniune quality whip that could hold up in accordance to the techniques I wanted to learn.

The same can be said about the equipment of any sports. You don't play football with a NERF Foam Ball...you can PRACTICE with it, but ultimately when it comes down to needing it to do everything a real pigskin does, it can't.

Same can be said about whips. Durability of a cheaper quality whip will no where NEAR stand up to that of a quality whip...that's common sense. But it all comes down to that question: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR WHIP?

ST · Post by ST » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:15 am

I personally feel sorry for Ron because I have made a nylon whip and understand what it takes to make one. Those two problems pictured above are the ones I struggled with the most when making mine. Otherwise I agree with BullWhipBorton

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:42 am

What makes someone a great whipmaker is the ability to solve the problems (like a loose point etc). That's why guys like Strain, Morgan, Nolan, Bernardo etc's whips aren't cheap.

Honestly one of the things that I love about whipmaking is figuring out how to solve problems. Once I figure out one thing, there's always a new challenge.

I think David Morgan told me it would take something like 75-100 whips before I was consistently making a passible whip...that's 75-100 whips to make make a whip that's not perfect whip, but one that's not horrible.

So when you get a whip from a newer guy (like me, or whoever) usually we are cheaper, because we are not as experienced...so if you are expecting a whip that's as good as one from the people listed above, but from someone that's been making whips for under 5 years it's an unrealistic expectation.

That's just my opinion.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 pm

Louie,

That humble attitude will get you far in life my friend!

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:14 pm

One thing that I always to do is not to fool myself into thinking I'm better than I am. And to make sure that if you get a whip from me you know what you are getting.

xoxo

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

Soup · Post by **Soup** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:02 pm

You are better than you think Louie, that's why I bought mine from you. Being humble will carry you far.

Regards,

Soup

P.S.

My whip still looks as good as the day I got it, makes me look better than I am.

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:28 pm

thats a great mentality to have Louie......

regardless of how good ANYBODY ever gets....... its always wise to know, theres always a bigger fish...... this goes for everybody regardless of what they are doing......... its just a simple fact of life.

Humility is the mark of a great man....
........I guess I'm just a good man..
...............eh.... Im alright.....

(paraphrased quote from Capt Mail, from "Firefly")

Magno · Post by **Magno** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:55 pm

Shagbd, I like you alot. But this situation with Ron is getting on my nerves, and I would appreciate it if it would stop.

I can't say I have as much experience with nylon as I do with leather, but as far as I'm concerned Ron has made me the BEST nylon whip I've handled, and 99.99% of all others who see them are also completely satisfied.
He has just as much right as anyone else, and personally I think he deserves more, if just for your degrading attitude towards him.

If you weren't satisfied with his work, then that is perfectly acceptable. But trying to tell other people off of it because you didn't find it perfect is just not the right thing to do, and you should know that.

Regardless of how quiet or modest you are about it, you are doing it, and you know it. You don't have to say something flat out in order to give people your point.

Now please. I really like you as a person and I would rather leave this conflict in the dust.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:00 am

Louie, That is a great attitude to have!

Magno, I'm glad you are one of Ron’s satisfied customers, I'm sure he appreciates the support as well.

Shagbd and Rjallen70 clearly have strong feelings on this matter and they are welcome to disagree as long as it’s done civilly. I have made it very clear to both though, that any kind bating and or personal quarrelling will not be permitted on COW. I will not allow that type of conduct to disrupt this board. I'm under the impression that they agree with that as well and I consider that matter closed, don’t stir it up again.

Dan

jabahutt70 · Post by **jabahutt70** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:23 am

rjallen70 wrote:The final owner of the whip you returned (after two months of enjoying it I might add), said it is the best whip he ever cracked and has a Steve huntress whip. He ordered another.
R

What's this? Now MY name is being dragged through the mud?!

Just kidding, really, though maybe a bad joke and a bit late.

Louie already mentioned some thoughts I had when reading this thread. When it comes to whipmaking, whether nylon or leather, it's important that everyone knows his/her place. Most of the whips I make & sell are nylon whips, but when I have time, I still work at making leather whips, and hopefully, someday, the quality will be a fraction of a Paul Nolan or Joe Strain, hopefully.

I recently mentioned to someone in an email how I thought that a whipmaker, and one who primarily makes nylon whips such as myself, would never be known as a "master whipmaker" for various reasons. That title is reserved for those such as Chris Barr, Joe Strain, Mike Murphy & a good number of others I won't take time to list.

My point is, I know my place in the whipmaking world, and don't take myself too seriously. The whips I build are all given great attention & time to make them the best that I know, and I'm always looking for improvement. Above all, I have fun making them!

Over the past few years, some customers have made suggestions regarding weight, taper, patterns, etc. which I've always taken under careful consideration. As someone mentioned the P.T. Barnum quote, "You can't please all of the people all of the time," that relates just as much to whipmaking as any type of goods we buy. Everyone has different tastes in whips.

Building whips, whether nylon or leather, is both challenging & fun. But whatever we do, do it the best we can, yet don't take yourself too seriously and know there's always room for improvement.

I'm not directing this post at any one person, just some thoughts I've had over the past few weeks. Dan Borton has done a pretty good job moderating this forum, so please do as he says, and ease up a bit.

Steve.
www.neawhips.com

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:45 am

well said Steve....