JRZJoe whip, my two cents. My opinion, not gospel.

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:28 pm

Ok, so before I gotta duck flying objects, let me just say think about what I am saying before hitting reply.

I bought a JRZJoe whip, and its not bad. It serves a purpose. I know that no one here believes he has decent whips, but hear me out.

In every thread where someone new like me says, I am interested in whipcracking, and I saw this guy on that auction site, everyone immediately says no no no, go with such and such whip's, even tho they are over one hundred dollars this is who you should go with.

Heres my thought...What was your first car? Was it a nice, shiny sports car, a decent reliable sedan, or was it something held together with duct tape?

If you have never cracked a whip before, for the price, I reccomend getting one of these whips. You might find out you dont like cracking, you might just want something to hang on your belt. You might injure yourself(godforbid) and say to heck with this whole hobby.

Or, like me, you can see the whips shortcomings, and say well, this will do for now as it is better then my first whip, and in time, I will upgrade to a Gus Caicedo...

Like all things, this whip serves a purpose. Please understand I am not bashing any vendor's whips, or attacking anyone who has questioned the reliability of JRZjoe. Im just a guy, that needed a whip that would crack, and see if this was something Id like to pursue. I needed to practice so that the con Im going to in November will allow me to show off a little bit.

So all Im saying is, if your new to this and want to pick up a car with pushed in fenders and an eight track to beat on for the winter until you can get your Camaro come springtime, then I recommend one of these.

Just don't try swinging from one.

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:33 pm

Out of curiosity, how much was the whip?

Regarding people's opinions here... there was one member who bought a whip from him and had it fall apart on its own, without swinging on it or anything!

Now personally... I wouldn't buy anything from Jrzjoe because I don't think he's an honest person. He has / had several videos and pictures posted on his auctions before. Some of them showed how you could hang or swing on his whips without damage to the whip. That's pretty misleading if you ask me... And even worse (!), he had videos of ME on his auction, which were posted in such a way as to make it look like I was using one of his whips, when I was certainly not. I even started to get YouTube messages from people asking about his whip and if I recommended it, and some people even thinking I WAS jrzjoe!

Now, I don't know about the quality of his whips, except that they can break, but I do know that I like an honest vendor, and past experiences have dictated that he doesn't belong in that category. If his whip was around $100, there are other vendors I'd rather give my money to, like Lee Keppler.

I'm not saying you made a bad choice, and I don't mean to sound rude (I hope I don't), but I was pretty upset about him using my video without asking me or letting me know, and especially when I started getting questions about his whips from people.

Shane

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:46 pm

Oh I understand Shane, I did a little research on the thread and had discovered you talking about that, and if you go to his different auctions, they are all different. In some he says you can swing from the whip, in some you cant, sometimes he has feedback from people from 2005, its all a mixed bag. I read his feedback profile and the only complaints I saw werent about his whips, they were about other @#$% that he sells.

I paid 99.89 total for a reddish brown 8 foot 12 plait cowhide whip, with a free small container of Pecards conditioner. I got a little instruction sheet with it explaining that you should condition the whip, then condition it again about every 60 days, I uncoiled it and let it hang on my door frame for a few days before I tried it out so it had time to drape, and then I began my training this week. I have a thread on that too.

One interesting thing to point out, I believe that instead of the leather being tanned before he assembled it, it looks like it was assembled in its natural light state, then dyed with leather dye. As Ive been using it, it has been lightening up. Again, I didnt expect top quality Roo hide for 85 bucks plus shipping. But seeing my reflection in my car with my hat on as I swing an overhead crack like the Raiders poster, thats enough to make me want to beat the bag out of this thing so I can earn a decent whip.

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:07 pm

heres my .02 .........

If you are happy with YOUR purchase, then thats great.... thats all that REALLY matters.......

........but.......

Dont expect to get more than you paid for..... a cheap product is still a cheap product regardless of how much marketing propaganda is included with it.
I see this alot in the sword world..... some guy will buy a cheap flea market POS stainless steel wallhanger sword for $100 and SWEAR that its the greatest sword the world has ever seen, worthy of Musashi himself...
Fact is..... its STILL a wallhanger.....

I just dont see anyway of justifying the price of them either.
for $100, you could get a decent 4 plait cowhide whip from a reputable maker......
for $100 you can get a really good Nylon whip from a reputable maker....

these ebay whips are in the same bucket, to me, as these Todds costume whips.... they are JUST decorative. your not really going to learn anything from cracking them........ WILL they crack? SURE!, but i can tie a fall and popper on the end of my belt and crack it...... doesnt make it a whip....

I started out with a really well made 4 plait cowhide..... so the transition into Roo wasnt THAT big...
but learning on something thats just NOT a whip isnt going to teach you anything...... basically, if you ever DO decide to get a quality whip, you'll practically be starting and square one........

your comment about how a cheap whip lets you know if you would like a better whip really doesnt hold water either........
Using your car analogy....... Does driving a 197X Ford POS give you a feel for how a BMW handles? Not hardly.....

Again, Im not knocking YOUR purchase, but for anyone else wanting to "start out"........ there are ALOT better ways to spend $100 on a whip.....

again, just my .02

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:14 pm

Hey,
look, I understand the reality of being on a budget, as most people do, and with this in mind I'd like to propose these ideas;

You can make all the comparisons you want, but doodoo is sstill doodoo no matter what you call it. My first car was a heap, but it was a safe heap, and to this analogy, I would offer that a whip, even a cheap whip, should act like one. His don't.

Now there are a few people out there who do offer budget whips and some I would recommend, while others I, well let's just say I'll keep my moouth shut about them: you know the whole "if you don't have anything nice to say" thing...

Doesn't matter if you use cowhide, kip, or kangaroo, all decent whipmaking leather will have a price attached to it. Then there are all the rest of the things needed to make a good whip, which I'm sorry but have to be paid for somehow by the whipmaker, and last but not least, there is the whipmaker's time, and by time I don,t just mean the time it takes to braid the darn thing, because if it was only a matter of that, any old fool could do it. I'm talking about the years required learning this great craft.

So you don't have to buy yerself a Ferarri, but you should get yourself something that works, and that is more than $100. On the other hand, all things being equal, if I were to buy an innexpenssive whip, I'd probably buy a cheap Mexican whip and trim the wide fall or I would get an American style bullwhip from Western Stage Props. They're not fancy, but from what I hear, they are not half bad, and my guess is that for less money than you would pay for one of JRZJoe's whips. So there ARE options for the budget minded whip enthusiast, but one should still shop around a bit. It's just a good idea overall anyway.

Eh, my two cents...

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:19 pm

I appreciate your opinion and I am glad you contributed, and that is exactly what this thread is for.

I am not happy with my whip, I am satisfied for the time being. I have something that to me, is as screen accurate as I could get for the time being and at my financial level right now. If I had my way, I would have three HJ fedoras and an AB, Four Westeds, a couple pairs of Aldens and at least four whips, all matching the films.

And I agree, driving a 197x ford pos would not show you how to handle a BMW...but from there you could handle a 1988 mustang...then 90s firebird...a new dodge charger...to a BMW. If I had the money to get an 800 dollar Roo hide whip, Id either be blind or dead right now. And thats why Im glad my first car was a 1983 Monte Carlo with a blown cylinder, because if I had gotten the sports car that I wanted, not only would I probably be dead or in jail, I wouldnt have appreciated the 98 Trans Am I had up until last year.

They say hard work builds character, and thats why Im such a character because I hardly work. No wait that didnt come out right.

Shagbd · Post by **Shagbd** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:44 pm

Are you serious?

my first car was a 1983 Monte Carlo SS.....

god.... i love that car...... the dash was so cracked it looked like peanut brittle, but MAN would it haul some booty!

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:54 pm

My MC wasnt an SS unfortunately, it was one of those grandma style ones. But it was all white with a blue interior, and it only had seven cylinders and electrical tape over the check engine light. But I would love to have one just like it only fully restored:) Someone hit me and pushed it into a third car. The other two cars suffered major damage, all I got was a broken radiator but the insurance company totaled it:(

Anyway, everybody here want to send me one dollar towards the future badarse whip I want by the end of next year?

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:26 pm

Drink one or two fewer beers a week and it'll pay for itself. Well OK maybe not a bad-*** one, but certainly a better one.

In the meantime, like I said, if you are interested in learning whipcracking, I would look in the American-style bullwhips. They will not be anywhere near screen accurate, but they will let you learn good and propper.

For the reccord, my first was a 1978 Honda Civic Hatchback my sister was going to ditch. It lasted a couple of years and died a glorious death during morning ruch-hour traffic on a major highway! Now I have an idea what it must be like to get shot down while in a fighter; first you hear Pa-klow! Then CLINK, then white smoke fills thge cockpit, euh I mean the interior of the car, and then you hope your position relative to the rest of the planet and your momentum will carry you to safety.

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:30 pm

Actually I dont drink and I almost never eat out.

I owned an 86 camaro that the exhaust pipe had come loose from the engine block, and my mechanic would seal it with muffler putty so it would pass inspection every year. Eventually the engine block cracked and I was saddled with an 88 chevy celebrity for four years.

As you can see I have about as much luck with whips as I do with cars.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:23 am

Indiana Joyce, I've enjoyed reading this thread, lively debate and entertaining. I have to confess my first whip has been an eBay special from the vendor you mentioned. Not a great whip, nor did I expect to get a great whip, but who wants a 4-plait whip if what your looking for is some semblance of screen accuracy!! I'm happy to say I'm upgrading (way up) to a Caicedo whip, I haven't even attempted to crack the JRZjoe whip because that is not why I bought it. In your defense, in my opinion it sounds like you made a semi-decent choice while weighing your present options and priorities. Now that Todd's has his first run of whips discounted to $99, I may have gotten one of those if that had been the case at the time.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:11 am

There is a saying that, if you want to learn how to really use a whip, you don’t need an expensive one, but you do need a well made one.

If a used car dealer portrays a run down 77 AMC Gremlin as a shinny new “08 Chevy Corvette” claiming that it that it goes just as fast and handles just as well and gets just as many miles per gallon, well that’s just not realistic.

I understand where you are coming from though, Many of us who have been cracking whips for any given length of time didn’t always start out with great whips. They just weren’t as readily available years ago, unless you knew someone who knew someone and even then they where still expensive for someone on a tight budget or modest allowance. There was no Internet though where you could type "bullwhip" in to google and come up with pages full of professional whip makers. We made due with what we had available though and while it wasn’t always pretty as we progressed and learned the quality of the whips we bought and used improved.

This may sound harsh, but whips like those in question on the eBay auctions, really appeal more to some one who just doesn’t know any better, or who wants a whip as a novelty item. These whips are what they are, just like a wool dorfman pacific Indy hat, they have their place on the market and I won’t say they don’t, but as far as for any real whip cracking goes they are better off kept as wall hangers, props, and replicas that make some noise on occasion. They are just are not suitable for precision whip cracking, use over an extended period of time, or let alone seriously trying to learn with.

Fortunately this fourm is made up of many serious and highly knowledgeable whip handlers and makers, who happen to also be Indy fans. We won’t or at least I won’t compromise quality and I cannot in good conscious recommend someone waist their money on junk when in the long run they are going to be dissatisfied with it and just end up spending more money to replace that item the very next chance they get. If you want a prop then great, but if you want a reliable whip to learn how to use, then that product isn’t what you want.

I am sure alot of people like JRZjoes whips, he wouldn’t still be selling them if there wasn’t a market for them. I think whips like that though are over priced and under built. If a whip has a poor balance, improper weight distribution and shape, not to mention questionable construction methods makeing it not much more then glorified leather rope, they are going to be far more difficult to learn with. A whip like that can cause a user to develop poor forum and pick up a lot of bad habits because they feel have to force the whip and fight it to get it to crack and preform, as apposed to a well made whip that is designed to do its job with as little effort as possible. So even when you move on to a better quality whip you still have to deal with those issues you didn’t even realize you had, so it’s often harder on the new whip because you used to fighting it and muscling it rather then working with it and letting it do the work for you. So as a result of not getting good results because of the whip, your more likely to get frustrated with the activity and give it up. It’s no coincidence that people who know whips want nothing to do with them.

But, If someone’s happy with their whip, who ever made it, or where ever it comes from, then that’s all that really matters!

Indiana Joyce · Post by **Indiana Joyce** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:14 am

Maybe I shouldnt have said anything. Its just that Im going to a con in November, and the whip that I had was awful. It was essentially a leather covered piece of rope. It was huge and unwieldy, and would not crack period. I looked at Gus' whip page, and I knew that once I came up with the money, there would still be a 6 week wait time to get the whip, so I was looking at not getting a whip until probably december, and I wouldnt be able to get a fitting jacket. So I did a lot of behind the scenes research here without saying hey I think Im gonna buy this la bagge ######' whip from evilbay.

Tho screen inaccurate, it is better then a Todds whip. Dont get me wrong, I am happy that Todd does all the work he does, and although the only thing of his that I own is the bag, I still am thrilled he helps people get started.

I just cant afford one of Gus' 10 footers right now, and thats what I really want. I cant even sell the cobra terror drome or the Cobra Commander costume I have right now, because people arent interested. Sigh. Maybe I should streetwalk myself to cover my growing gearhead obession.

rjallen70 · Post by **rjallen70** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:18 am

While I agree with everything McFly said...
It sounds to me that you have the right tool for the job at hand.
You are going for a look, and it will do. It will also crack well enough to impress all the people at the con. Nylon would handle better, but wouldn't really look the part.
As far as it ruining your techniqe...don't worry about that either. Re-learning is less difficult than learning in the first place. Pleny of us have had to do it.
If I could go back in time to a point when the old $30 mexican swivel handle was the coolest thing on earth, I would do it in a second.
Ignorance my friend, truely is bliss. Enjoy it.
Ron

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:51 pm

Don’t worry Indiana Joyce, you really brought up a lot of good points. Everyone has different objectives that they want to get out of a whip when they buy it. I just hate to see people disapointed becase the fell for someone snake oil advertising, and so I try to steer others from making mistakes a lot of us made before.

I have to admit though, do kinda get a kick out of the gearheads who go all out on the hats, jackets and shoe, etc, but then they have a $80 orange whip on their belt

. Its all good though there is room for everyone and there is a wide enough variety of goods in this hobby to support everyone’s obsession.

By the way Joe Strain is in the process of developing a Budget indy bullwhip too that looks pretty darn good!http://www.northernwhipco.com/indiana_j ... t_whip.htm

Dan

Indiana Joosse · Post by **Indiana Joosse** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:09 am

Dang! I wish I had read this threa a few days ago...

I just ordered one of these whips.

It's not that I intend to do a lot of whip cracking with it, but I just figured that I might as well get some kind of whip as it is an Indy signature item. I don't even intend to carry it around much, jut wanted to have a whip to toss into a suitcase.

It was only a 50 dollar purchase on the internet auction site we all love.

But after having read this I wish I hadn't done that.

Nevertheless, I do have to say that Indiana Joyce has raised a few good points here.

Thanks!

Indiana Joosse · Post by **Indiana Joosse** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:07 am

Well, the whip arrived today.

(if anybody was reading about my Wested, yes, it was that other package)

An having read this I expected it to be a total piece of @#$% (pardon my French).

But as it turns out it's actually quite a nice looking whip to my eyes. Naturally I am not an expert on whips, but at 50 dollars this still seems like a sweet deal to me. It even came with a small pot of pecard.

As I said, I just wanted a whip as it is such an Indy signature item, and this suits my purpose just fine.

Even gave it a crack, and that worked without a problem.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:32 pm

I certainly understand being on a budget. I bust my own budget all the time but that's another story. I got a jrzjoe 4 plait, 10 ft just to have one for my gear and to see if I liked whip cracking. The only problem was that I think these whips don't give you an accurate picture of whether or not you would like whip cracking.

I tried for several days to crack the jrzjoe and only got it to crack a few times (might be me rather than the whip, I know). I grabbed a Gus Caiedo (sp?) here on the Bazaar and it is light years away. I took it out last night (first time) and cracked it several times. It is 10 times easier to use. I also wonder if the jrzjoe whips won't promote bad habits. I noticed I was really having to muscle it to get it to crack and that's not I've heard you have to do with a better quality whip.

So, again, while I VERY much understand going on a budget, I think there's a difference as far as different types of gear goes. You can get a pair of "close enough" boots and not be hurting that much while you budget for Aldens. But whips, being functional, are an entirely different matter.

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:17 am

Very well sais Crismans!

While I do feel a propper whip is the way to go, I do get the financial thing. But as a good friend of mine once told me "You always buy the very best quality you can AFFORD".

techrtr · Post by **techrtr** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:37 am

I don't think a whip promotes bad habits. I have several whips now, including a Joe, and each of them is different. Everytime I switch whips, I have to adjust my timing and technique. My 6 foot nylon is completely different than my Caicedo, which is totally different than my Joe. The Joe whip is light and flexible and is awesome for combinations. The Gus is much heavier and works much better for straight cracks for simple combos like the Queensland Flash. Different whips for different uses.