Help: Totally at Sea on "The Jacket"

[lpa53]

This isn't really a new question but an old one I'm sure you get often from newbies. There are so many maker-specific threads here that I decided to post this way.

I'm new to "jacket itch" but got it last week in anticipation of getting my Keppler fedora (any day now?).

I don't really want to spend much more than around $300.00 US.

I'd wear only for non-adventurous stuff like, uh, shopping and going to work (sacrilege?), so don't need to have something terribly durable.

I'd rather have something more to the SA side than tough-as-leather.
So far it seems that folks here prefer the goat over the lamb for slightly better durability, but I don't want anything that is stiff, dull, and doesn't drape OK. Horse or cowhide? - I probably rather not.

I doubt I'll be trying any weathering either - it sounds risky - but just slowly break it in (yet more sacrilege?).

It'll be worn more often in cooler weather and often with a light sweater over a shirt so an 80s cut would most likely not work. I'm 5'10, ~170lbs so don't need a full cut either.

This will probably be the only jacket I get for quite awhile (have to keep the ther half happy and still afford my guitar habit).

The Wested prices on their site actually look pretty good - around $250.00 for an ROLA - am I converting incorrectly? Hidden costs? Costly shipping? Long waiting time? Hard to return overseas?

Which way to go? A Wested goat, a US Wings goat, the Todd?

And what is a G&B? Can't find it listed anywhere.

Help!

[jnicktem]

Other people on here can give you better answers, but I can answer your last question. G&B= Gibson and Barnes.

[Rob]

Based on what you say, I would dip your toe into the hobby with a lamb jacket. I would also dip your toe with a vendor "close to home" for easier returns.

So long as you can actually fit into a Todd jacket (check the sizing and remember that the jackets feel snug, so you might want to go up a size just to be sure), I think there are far worse ways to spend $150.

http://www.toddscostumes.com/indy/jacke ... jacket.htm

And, FWIW, I say this with no bias as my two jackets are actually a Wested and a US Wings. I *have* bought other material (but not jackets) off Todd in the past, however, and between those experiences and the great reviews of his jacket from other members here, I'd feel pretty comfortable suggesting it to you. Ultimately, just keep in mind that buying things like this over the Web is sometimes a bit of a lucky dip!

[TruckWhatTruck]

it *sounds* like you are a perfect candidate for a Todd's- the preference for lightweight/SA over heavyweight /durability has been a somewhat polarizing issue around here, and most of those on the lightweight/SA side of things have opted for the Todd's.

And, consequentially, most of them seem to have been quite happy with their choice. good luck.

[Indiana Strones]

and going to work (sacrilege?),

Depending of your job: are you an archaeologist-adventurer?

[Kt Templar]

For price and leather, the goat OTR Wested is very good value.

http://www.ekmpowershop4.com/ekmps/shop ... -107-p.asp

[IndianaBogart]

And, consequentially, most of them seem to have been quite happy with their choice. good luck.

Well, I'm one of those people and I am VERY happy with my Todds. First off, the price can't be beat, especially for what you want to use it for: normal wear.

Second, it's probably (and I hope others will back me up as I'm not a complete expert or anything) one of the most (if not THE most) screen accurate jackets available.

AND....the price is great, and you'll only be spending half of your budget.

I recieved mine back in July, and still haven't really gotten much of a chance to wear it. But with October right around the corner it's about to see some serious wear.

And also, you should know that there are debates as to the durability of the jacket, but if you do a search then I think you will see that Weston has put those to rest. But again, for what you want to use it for, there shouldn't be any issues.

It sounds like your only issue may be the size. I'm 5'9" and about 130 pounds and I ordered a medium and it nearly looks as if it were tailored to me. But Todd goes up to XXL I think, I know XL for sure, so you should probably be able to find a jacket that fits you.

Good luck in your quest, lpa53, I hope everything with your jacket works out for you. Gotta go. Class in 30 minutes!

[jacksdad]

I'd agree witht the others sounds like the Todds is right for you.I have an off the rack gaot from wested but I will wear the heck out of it and use it at work also, so I needed something durable,but the Todds jacket is proving it self and I would say its right up there now also. you cannot beat the price. good luck

[Michaelson]

Based on the price quoted by Peter Botwright regarding the upcoming TofD custom jacket of $295, you could actually get yourself a custom made jacket from Wested within the price range you quote above.

Why settle for an off the rack sized jacket when you could get one customa made from your specs of any material you want?

Regards! Michaelson

[eazybox]

[quote="IndianaBogart"][quote]
Second, it's probably (and I hope others will back me up as I'm not a complete expert or anything) one of the most (if not THE most) screen accurate jackets available.
quote]

Yes, Todd's jackets are the most accurate Raiders replica currently available. They are made from the specs of a screen-used stunt jacket. Based on your requirements, I would also echo the other recommendations that, Todd would be not only the best choice for you, but also the least expensive-- provided the off-the-rack fit is right, of course. I've had my Standard for almost a year now, and I love it.

Jack

[Kevin Anderson]

I own a Todds standard and two Westeds. The Todds was about half the price of the Wested jackets, and while it may be screen accurate, and look good in pictures, I would never wear it outside the house!
It is what I would call thin and nasty, and not particularily well made.
I've said before, I consider it a costume jacket, nothing more.
Spend the extra cash and get a Wested/G&B. My Westeds at least I can comment on; they feel sturdy and look like jackets to wear every day.
For G&B, I've heard almost nothing but praise, but haven't owned one. Yet.
I don't mean to be too harsh towards the Todd's Standard jacket, and perhaps they have improved since I purchased mine in April of this year.
This is simply my opinion.

[eazybox]

I own a Todds standard and two Westeds. The Todds was about half the price of the Wested jackets, and while it may be screen accurate, and look good in pictures, I would never wear it outside the house!
It is what I would call thin and nasty, and not particularily well made.
I've said before, I consider it a costume jacket, nothing more.
Spend the extra cash and get a Wested/G&B. My Westeds at least I can comment on; they feel sturdy and look like jackets to wear every day.
For G&B, I've heard almost nothing but praise, but haven't owned one. Yet.
I don't mean to be too harsh towards the Todd's Standard jacket, and perhaps they have improved since I purchased mine in April of this year.
This is simply my opinion.

I have to disagree here. The Todd's leather is thin, but holds up surprisingly well under real world conditions. It's been subjected to some extreme torture tests by some members here and has survived. It is a real leather jacket, and not just a costume item to wear inside the house.

But if you prefer the TOD style, Michaelson's recommendation above would be a good one to consider.

Jack

[alphared6]

I agree with Jack, I am very impressed with my Todd's. I got it yesterday and it ain't no halloween costume, tissue thin jacket. Lightweight, yes. But well made and sturdy. No, I would not wear it riding a motor cycle or while hanging from the barrel of a tank but for everyday knocking around I think it's perfect.
Before I bought it I Emailed several people who have them. A fellow on another site told me he's had his for several months. Has worn it a lot even while hunting (must have smelled of tanned leather for miles around!) He tells me he's jacket's taken a beating and keeps on ticking.
I have seen leather jackets of considerably less quality for sale in the mall for twice what Todd's is asking.

My "go to the field" Indy jacket is a US Wings goat skin. Now there's a tough jacket.

[Cassidy]

lpa53:

One thing you'll learn quickly around here is that each brand has its' loyalists and detractors which come with all of the pitfalls of opinions, so here's my advice.

RULE 1

Listen to what Michaelson says.

That is all.

[Michaelson]

VERY dangerous advice! YOU go first!

Regards! Michaelson

[Cassidy]

VERY dangerous advice! YOU go first!

Regards! Michaelson

I'm looking for all of the threads where you've let people down...they must have been deleted - can't find 'em anywhere.

[Michaelson]

Ah, you must learn the power of the force.....of the delete function.... 8-[

Regards! Michaelson

[JC1972]

There is the $195 USW Blue Label cowskin jacket. Might be too full of a jacket for your tastes.
BTW, whenever I see last post by Michaelson, I always click on it to see what he has to say. Usually its good advice.

Now Michaelson, about that $20 you promised me...

[Chewbacca Jones]

To address your thoughts pint for point...

1) Price presents us with U.S. Wings Goat or Todd's Standard. (Wested plus shipping comes out to about $330 by XE.com)

2) Cool weather depends on how cold one gets. Goat is generally warmer than lambskin, especially if we're talking a USW Goat vs. Todd's standard lamb.

3) Returns and shipping; Wested returns can be costly overseas, and the original shipping is about $40.

4) Durability; Based on what you describe, lambskin won't be a problem. It might be the least durable of the leathers, but it's not tissue paper. Mine sees the kind of use you talk about. It is 3 years old and is undamaged. It's just starting to distress naturally. Now, goatskin is some tough stuff. It will probably look new forever in your case.

5) SA; Lambskin all the way, baby. And I hear that Todd's standard is one of the most SA off-the-rack jackets in terms of appearance. The US Wings goatskin has shine and character, but it is much stiffer than lambskin. It will drape more like cowhide until it's broken in. Mine is second hand, and still not broken in.

6) What is a G&B; A killer top of the line jacket that is way beyond your price range.

Final recommendation; Todd's Standard Lambskin, based strictly on your criteria.

[Michaelson]

6) What is a G&B; A killer top of the line jacket that is way beyond your price range.

...unless he catches one in their clearance section.

Regards! Michaelson

[Kt Templar]

Sorry Chewie, your sums are not quite right.

The OTR goat special is £125 plus £20 shipping.

£145 is US$260 give or take by XE.com today.

That's a OTR compared with other OTRs.

You can have a custom for £40 more which is about US$72.

£185 (inc shipping) Which still gives just under US$331 total.

A custom from anyone else is far far more.

Shipping by small packet airmail is around US$30 usually.

[Indiana Strones]

Are the Todd's side straps SA or not? I noticed that they are reversed. Thanks for any help.

[Chewbacca Jones]

It seems I stand corrected on two counts.

I forget that G&B has a good clearance deal roll by from time to time.

As for the Wested prices, KT, I didn't see any of those prices where I was looking. I assume I just missed what you're talking about. You should post a link for other blind bats like me.

However, those prices don't solve the issue of return costs, should they come up. A tight budget makes that a problem. That said, a $300 custom goatskin Wested might be worth the risk.

[Kt Templar]

No problem my friend, we both have a need for custom sizing!

The otr £125 Wested jackets are here

Those more in the middle of the sizing bell curve will fit in these jackets very well.

[Satipo]

I'm curious - how "custom" are Wested's customs these days? Didn't I read somewhere that you can't give them a big list of specs any more?

[Rob]

No problem my friend, we both have a need for custom sizing!

The otr £125 Wested jackets are here

Those more in the middle of the sizing bell curve will fit in these jackets very well.

I'm thinking they might make a nice OTR jacket for a woman, too.

My wife's in the market for a jacket.

[Kentucky Blues]

I'm curious - how "custom" are Wested's customs these days? Didn't I read somewhere that you can't give them a big list of specs any more?

From what I've gathered, and I must say it's not much, but I think that the no big list of specs means he'll customize it to your size, and maybe some different options, but he won't let you go crazy with it. Like maybe you can get a custom fit with a different zipper, but he might not give you custom dimensioned pockets, move the side straps lower or higher, change the depth of the action pleat, etc. But like I said, I know very little about this. I've heard that Peter is cutting down on customization, and the custom orderform looks pretty straight forward, and not like anything he would change his mind on, so it just makes sense to me that he means any further customization than what's ont he order form.

-KB

[gwyddion]

well, I ordered and got a custom with narower pleats, so I think it means that he does not want orders with a "mile long" spec sheet. Just one or two things will probably not be a problem.

Regards, Geert

[lpa53]

No problem my friend, we both have a need for custom sizing!

The otr £125 Wested jackets are here

Those more in the middle of the sizing bell curve will fit in these jackets very well.

What's the difference between this "special offer" Wested and their Raiders Jacket in goatskin (besides the ~17 bucks or so)?

I think I read somewhere on COW that these special-offer Westeds are 80s style and may not go well when wearing a sweater. Is that correct?
I live in Chicago and it does get cold around here.

And is this statement on that page of concern at all?:
"Unlike the Standard raiders which has slight modification to make it durable and street wearable this 'film jacket' although equally wearable is more lightweight....There are no inside leather facings, the body is slimmer and the sleeves more tapered. The zip is a smaller 5 gauge nickel and the action pleat depth is narrower with two piped inside pockets."

I'm torn between this wested another Wested and a Todd's. For some reason the USWings are not calling me.

Arghhhhhh!

BTW - I'm grateful for all the advice.

[Rob]

For some reason the USWings are not calling me.

Just FYI, the other day I had an email from Laurie at US Wings which ran, in part, "I am so sorry, we had a BIG wind storm last night so we have been without power and internet all day(internet is back up, but still no electric)."

So maybe... maybe... that is why you aren't getting a call. The business might have been a bit disrupted with the weather. I can't say for sure.

[Kevin Anderson]

I think he means he's not interested in them.

[gwyddion]

No problem my friend, we both have a need for custom sizing!

The otr £125 Wested jackets are here

Those more in the middle of the sizing bell curve will fit in these jackets very well.

What's the difference between this "special offer" Wested and their Raiders Jacket in goatskin (besides the ~17 bucks or so)?

I think I read somewhere on COW that these special-offer Westeds are 80s style and may not go well when wearing a sweater. Is that correct?
I live in Chicago and it does get cold around here.

And is this statement on that page of concern at all?:
"Unlike the Standard raiders which has slight modification to make it durable and street wearable this 'film jacket' although equally wearable is more lightweight....There are no inside leather facings, the body is slimmer and the sleeves more tapered. The zip is a smaller 5 gauge nickel and the action pleat depth is narrower with two piped inside pockets."

I'm torn between this wested another Wested and a Todd's. For some reason the USWings are not calling me.

Arghhhhhh!

BTW - I'm grateful for all the advice.

Anything called ROLA Special is an 80's cut jacket and aren't the best option if you want to wear a sweater underneath them. They only have 2" of extra room in them opposed to the 4" of extra room for a standard cut. All the other special offers are standard cut.

Although I have only had my ROLA Special lamb for about 4 months now, I dont think the smaller zip and the absence of leather facings will have much of an impact on it's durability.

because your need to wear a sweater underneath your jacket I would sugest you go for a standard cut if you decide to order a Wested.

Regards, Geert

[SpeedRcrX]

I'm thinking they might make a nice OTR jacket for a woman, too.

My wife's in the market for a jacket.

Is your wife tall ??
Because don't forget those jackets are for men.
For now, I always ordered custom to make sure the jackets fit me (especially with the shoulder width, the sleeves length and the back length). I know that if I order an OTR jacket, I'll end up to the tailor to shorten the sleeves length.

[Rob]

I'm thinking they might make a nice OTR jacket for a woman, too.

My wife's in the market for a jacket.

Is your wife tall ??
Because don't forget those jackets are for men.
For now, I always ordered custom to make sure the jackets fit me (especially with the shoulder width, the sleeves length and the back length). I know that if I order an OTR jacket, I'll end up to the tailor to shorten the sleeves length.

She's 5'8" - I thought that might have been just tall enough?

[SpeedRcrX]

You can take a look here :

http://www.indyjacket.co.uk/frsizing.html

it could help you or you could ask Gemma for advices.

[lpa53]

I own a Todds standard and two Westeds. The Todds was about half the price of the Wested jackets, and while it may be screen accurate, and look good in pictures, I would never wear it outside the house! It is what I would call thin and nasty...

I keep reading responses saying how thin Todds Standard is. The mpression given is of a piece of naugahide (remember that?) from a beanbag chair who's color is razor thin and shows white when scratched.

Is it as thin as a worn-out undershirt? A nylon windbreaker? Anyone have an actual mil thinkness?

If I ony felt comfortable with getting two, each from a different supplier!

[TruckWhatTruck]

I own a Todds standard and two Westeds. The Todds was about half the price of the Wested jackets, and while it may be screen accurate, and look good in pictures, I would never wear it outside the house! It is what I would call thin and nasty...

I keep reading responses saying how thin Todds Standard is. The mpression given is of a piece of naugahide (remember that?) from a beanbag chair who's color is razor thin and shows white when scratched.

Is it as thin as a worn-out undershirt? A nylon windbreaker? Anyone have an actual mil thinkness?

If I ony felt comfortable with getting two, each from a different supplier!

the Todd's is simply thinner than most other brands- this is being misinterpreted by many as meaning that the Todd's is "delicate", which is simply not true.
the Todd's is getting short shrift based on the fact that everyone is assuming that if a leather jacket isn't built like a tank that it'll fall apart the second you put it on. again, this is simply not the truth. it's a lightweight leather jacket, not a stitched up napkin. it's a perfectly decent and well-made garment, although not many people seem to grasp the idea.

[lpa53]

the Todd's is simply thinner than most other brands- this is being misinterpreted by many as meaning that the Todd's is "delicate", which is simply not true.
the Todd's is getting short shrift based on the fact that everyone is assuming that if a leather jacket isn't built like a tank that it'll fall apart the second you put it on. again, this is simply not the truth. it's a lightweight leather jacket, not a stitched up napkin. it's a perfectly decent and well-made garment, although not many people seem to grasp the idea.

Does the weight make this only a fall and spring jacket or can I wear it without freezing to death when it's around 20F?

The folks at Todds suggest getting a size larger if I intend to wear a sweater underneath it. If so, would it then hang badly when without a sweater. I'm trying to get enough of an idea so I can convince myself if need be that this would not be for winter-wear.

I suppose the opposite could be true of heavier jackets - too hot in the high 80s and 90s...

[eazybox]

I described my Todd's to Tony Nowak, and he said the description closely matched the exact Raiders replicas he's making from an original jacket. Of course, I'm not sure he understood just HOW thin the Todd's is. But in any case, the Todd's is not a worn out undershirt, a shower curtain, or a piece of tissue paper. It is definitely a real lwather jacket and most who have first hand experience with it love it.

It won't work in 20 degree winter weather, though, in my opinion.

Jack

[Rob]

Precisely so about the heat issue that a heavier jacket will bring you, lpa53. Also, in your opening remarks, you mentioned doing nothing adventurous in the jacket. This was partly the reason I swung you towards a Todd's, and which is why the thread has gone off on that tangent. But now you seem concerned about the strength of a Todd's, so I'm a little confused. A lambskin jacket, whether it's a Todd's or something else, is going to hold up to driving around in your car or walking around the mall. Infact, it will hold up to even more. But if that's all you're doing, then there's absolutely no problem. If you've changed your mind since the OP, and want something tougher, I can suggest something tougher, but it will generally come at the cost of not being able to wear it in warmer weather. Perhaps what you're looking at is a scenario where you dip your toe in the hobby with a $150 Todd's and see how that goes... then if you want a tougher, warmer jacket for more adventurous activity and/or wintertime, investigate a Wested horsehide, or something, in the months and years ahead. One thing I have found in my years of doing this hobby is that opinions on all the gear are HIGHLY subjective and you might buy something that everyone else raves about and think it's not so great. Or you might buy something that no one else rates, and find it's fantastic. So I guess what I'm saying is that there's an element of trial and error here that none of us can really help with, via the internet. The one thought at the back of my mind, meanwhile, is that $150 isn't a $300, $500 or $1000 investment, either, so you can afford to be underwhelmed, to some degree, by the Todd's, moreso that paying $500 for something that thrills you no more than something a lot cheaper might have. Hope this helps your thought process at this time

[TruckWhatTruck]

Precisely so about the heat issue that a heavier jacket will bring you, lpa53. Also, in your opening remarks, you mentioned doing nothing adventurous in the jacket. This was partly the reason I swung you towards a Todd's, and which is why the thread has gone off on that tangent. But now you seem concerned about the strength of a Todd's, so I'm a little confused. A lambskin jacket, whether it's a Todd's or something else, is going to hold up to driving around in your car or walking around the mall. Infact, it will hold up to even more. But if that's all you're doing, then there's absolutely no problem. If you've changed your mind since the OP, and want something tougher, I can suggest something tougher, but it will generally come at the cost of not being able to wear it in warmer weather. Perhaps what you're looking at is a scenario where you dip your toe in the hobby with a $150 Todd's and see how that goes... then if you want a tougher, warmer jacket for more adventurous activity and/or wintertime, investigate a Wested horsehide, or something, in the months and years ahead. One thing I have found in my years of doing this hobby is that opinions on all the gear are HIGHLY subjective and you might buy something that everyone else raves about and think it's not so great. Or you might buy something that no one else rates, and find it's fantastic. So I guess what I'm saying is that there's an element of trial and error here that none of us can really help with, via the internet. The one thought at the back of my mind, meanwhile, is that $150 isn't a $300, $500 or $1000 investment, either, so you can afford to be underwhelmed, to some degree, by the Todd's, moreso that paying $500 for something that thrills you no more than something a lot cheaper might have. Hope this helps your thought process at this time

wise words- i'd listen to this man.

[eazybox]

It may also be a case of being reluctant to pull the trigger and trying to talk yourself out of it at the last minute; we've all been at that point of indecision. I would suggest that you just buy it; you could always return it if you find it unsatisfactory.

Jack

[crismans]

Rob has spoken wisely. My custom Todd's is the lightest jacket I own (among 2 westeds and a TN). It's perfect for fall or spring duty, but it is not a winter jacket. Rob's advice to get the Todd's as a "toe-dipping" jacket is really good. Try it out that way and, if you like it, then you can go through all of this again for a winter version.

[Kevin Anderson]

I'm not confusing light-weight with delicate or fragile. Light-weight is good. It's the overall quality of the Standard I was not impressed with.
It looks like a screen jacket, in photos, I will give it that. But the leather is awful; it neither looks nor feels very 'leathery'. The stitching on the sleeves and shoulders was poor; too large and 'visible'. Hanging side by side with a Wested, the Standard looks like a cheap costume piece, while the Wested looks like a real-world jacket.
I've since distressed the heck out othe Todd's standard. It was cheap, and quite frankly I didn't care what happened to it. It served it's purpose as a Fancy dress costume jacket quite well, however.

[Rob]

Kevin, can I ask, in all seriousness and not to be a wise guy at all, how many leather jackets you've owned in your life? The reason I ask is very simple: I once wore my Wested horsehide to work and a guy there described it as thin and "kinda plastic" and not at all like his own (non-Indy) leather jacket, which (after I looked at it), was probably pig, or if I was being charitable, perhaps cow. It was a big, thick, heavy jacket at any rate. Anyway, getting back to the story, I was blown away, basically, to have someone describe horsehide as "kinda plastic" but it did show me that people's impressions of leather, and what leather should look like (or feel like), are very different. Sometimes it's because they simply haven't worn a whole lot of different hides; sometimes it's because their impressions are just... different. So I'm kind of curious as to how you might have arrived at your assessment of the Todd's when so many other COW members, who all own Westeds and G&Bs and USWs and old Coopers, etc, etc, and have a good idea about many different kinds of leather, are quite OK with the Todd's jacket - especially for its pricepoint...?

[TruckWhatTruck]

I'm not confusing light-weight with delicate or fragile. Light-weight is good. It's the overall quality of the Standard I was not impressed with.
It looks like a screen jacket, in photos, I will give it that. But the leather is awful; it neither looks nor feels very 'leathery'. The stitching on the sleeves and shoulders was poor; too large and 'visible'. Hanging side by side with a Wested, the Standard looks like a cheap costume piece, while the Wested looks like a real-world jacket.
I've since distressed the heck out othe Todd's standard. It was cheap, and quite frankly I didn't care what happened to it. It served it's purpose as a Fancy dress costume jacket quite well, however.

well, this is why we have a great forum. while i personally can't say that i shared KA's dissatisfactions with the Todd's Standard, at least you're getting both sides of the coin, with logical and well-intentioned posting. COW members are nothing if not frank and brutal about jacket assessments...

mine is a vote of confidence in the Todd's jacket, both in terms of SA and workmanship, especially for the money. however, i don't own a wested, so it's possible that i just don't have enough perspective to be useful in this debate. time will tell.

[Kevin Anderson]

Thanks Truck.
I'm not trying to be nasty, and I'm not trying to be negative for no good reason. I was simply disappointed with the jacket. Just my opinion, and I'm glad so many have had a better experince with them than myself.
It was my first Indy jacket, and I had hoped it would be my last (not likely!), but you get what you pay for.
Above is a pic of the now-distressed jacket. Severely distressed, I think, and it held up ok, but thast doesn't change my opinion of it.
Looks nice in pictures!

[TruckWhatTruck]

Thanks Truck.
I'm not trying to be nasty, and I'm not trying to be negative for no good reason. I was simply disappointed with the jacket. Just my opinion, and I'm glad so many have had a better experince with them than myself.
It was my first Indy jacket, and I had hoped it would be my last (not likely!), but you get what you pay for.
Above is a pic of the now-distressed jacket. Severely distressed, I think, and it held up ok, but thast doesn't change my opinion of it.
Looks nice in pictures!

top notch distressing, kevin. pics of your wested to compare and contrast, perhaps?

[Kevin Anderson]

Good distressing? You're too kind! I literally slapped that jacket, slightly damp, against a brick wall several times, front and back, to get that effect.
There's pics of my other jackets around here someplace. Three leather jackets, Rob, in answer to your question. The two Westeds; One novapelle, one lamb. And thirdly, a heavy grey/black leather thing from a Roger David store a few years back. That was nice until it got a cigarette burn on one arm, though it never fit me right.
I know what good leather feels like, and more importantly, I know what I like. I simply didn't like the Todd's standard jacket; I've given my reasons, and If I was out of line stating my opinion of it, what's the point of a forum? I won't say any more on the matter.

[lpa53]

Thanks Truck.
I'm not trying to be nasty, and I'm not trying to be negative for no good reason. I was simply disappointed with the jacket. Just my opinion, and I'm glad so many have had a better experince with them than myself.
It was my first Indy jacket, and I had hoped it would be my last (not likely!), but you get what you pay for.
Above is a pic of the now-distressed jacket. Severely distressed, I think, and it held up ok, but thast doesn't change my opinion of it.
Looks nice in pictures!

Delfloria's Todd's Standard looks pretty good to me in this pic. The ever-so-slight weathering is just what I'd like. Maybe it's just luck of the draw and I may have to reconcile myself with drawing more than once ...

Yes, and I'm slowly coming to grips with the fact that I may have to buy a grey fedora and wear that in the winter with a grey overcoat, and leave the jacket for the other seasons!

Hope I'm not a bother. Everyone here has been so helpful.

Now if only my Keppler would appear on the doorstep!