Club Obi Wan

Thought everyone on the forum might like to see this that appeared recently on TV in England .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7418006.stm

Very neat to finally see a live shot of the inside of the barn.

Good report, but a bit troubling too. It implies Wested made the jacket used in CS in interview and photos used. They did not. Tony Nowak did.

Didn't we just go through a fiasco and call for burning at the stake, not only here, but at other forums, when a company in Hollywood allowed it to be implied in a news story that they made the hats used in CS, when it was actually AB? Their excuse was they never SAID they did. It was just IMPLIED they did by the interviewer!

Is this becoming the norm?

Good grief.

Regards! Michaelson

yeah they did make it sound like they made the Crystal Skull Jacket - very odd - you'd think they would have clarifies that since they're already so well respected.

Peter has posted this video a while ago.
He said the full interview would be on his site.

This was on a regional news broadcast, and we all know how good they are!

They didn't even spell his name right.

I think we're lucky they realised it was Indiana Jones not Vinny or Tom!

Yeah, but it's international now, and his statements are now on record here on the www!

Hopefully the full interview will clear up those 'misconceptions' that were made in this piece. Seems a lot of this has been going around lately.

Regards! Michaelson

I think journalism has deteriorated greatly in the last 15 years. Let's face it, it's a much better story for those who don't know to think that they heard from the maker of the current jacket. It would be boring (for people outside this forum) and long to go into the details of what/where/who/when/how/why.

And Michaelson is right. Nothing is regional anymore these days. With the internet, everything is global. You'd think people would try to be more careful.

Michaelson wrote:Very neat to finally see a live shot of the inside of the barn.

Good report, but a bit troubling too. It implies Wested made the jacket used in CS in interview and photos used. They did not. Tony Nowak did.

Didn't we just go through a fiasco and call for burning at the stake, not only here, but at other forums, when a company in Hollywood allowed it to be implied in a news story that they made the hats used in CS, when it was actually AB? Their excuse was they never SAID they did. It was just IMPLIED they did by the interviewer!

Is this becoming the norm?

Good grief.

Regards! Michaelson

When you do an interview like that you don't get editorial control.

Making a false claim through implication is called "plausible deniability" in Hollywood, according to Fedora. If the person making the claim is called on it later, he can say he was simply misunderstood. In the meantime, maybe some suckers have bought his merchandise based on the false claim. It sure looks like that's what is going on in this video. Let's give Peter a chance to set the record straight, though.

Jack

It just makes 'our' jobs harder, as we're trying to provide the best, most comprehensive site with information about Indy's gear that we can. No favorites be chosen, just the facts posted.

When stories either get 'spun' or mis-reported and are not challenged, the stories get told and retold over and over again with certain details left out or more added until the myth becomes 'fact'.

It's happened so many times, many of us are getting tired tilting this proverbial windmill, but a few will still raise their hand and say 'huh?'. Let's hope it stays that way, or this hobby is dead.

We may as well go back to J. C. Penny's and buy a jacket and close enough hat and swear it was what was actually used by Ford in this film or that, as nobody CARES what the real story is anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

And most every report is sloppy. It's both easier and harder to get "the real story" since one must sort through stacks of mis- and dis-information. I often find a few glaring errors in NY Times articles, and chuckle/cry/sigh thinking that this is "The Paper of Record". I suppose the only consolation, is that online articles can be issued with corrections, as they often are.

I suppose the only consolation, is that online articles can be issued with corrections, as they often are.

Yeah, but usually on the last page in small print.

Regards! Michaelson

And the claim comes directly out of Peter's mouth, not the interviewers.

Jack

eazybox wrote:And the claim comes directly out of Peter's mouth, not the interviewers.

Jack

His explanation was cut sort by the editor.

And he did make his Crystal Skull jacket before Nowak made his.

Of course the part that always goes unspoken is that the prototypes sent to Western costume by Peter show signs of having been deconstructed to find out how they worked.

Very tired of people blaming reporters, or journalism in general, for every error they see in print or on the news as if its intentional.

Regardless, KT, it's implied Wested made the film used jacket. They did not. Nothing was said in the interview to correct that misconception.

Regards! Michaelson

Anyone know how to save this video on the hard disk? : : :

KT, do you work for Wested?

Regards, Dr. J

Dr._J wrote:KT, do you work for Wested?

Regards, Dr. J

Nope. Although with the amount of money I've spent there, it sometimes seems like it! .

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Oh, I thought you did KT. Learn something new everyday!

Arright -

After nearly twenty years, CS is where a LOT of people are getting their first taste of Indiana Jones. Therefore, they picked a clip from CS to introduce the most famous character outfitted by Wested. Secondly, it is clear in the presentation that these jackets are available to the public and that this is, in a manner of speaking, a showroom. You'd be just as inclined to believe that that was the Tom Cruise hero jacket as you would believe the jacket shown was an Indy hero jacket. Wested ( by proxy ) did provide Indy jackets for all the movies. They also provide a CS jacket to the public. He simply states that, " this is the CS jacket..." which, from his line, it is. Just like the DP is the Indy hat. That is something for the cautious buyer to discern.

Conversely, I find it pretty gosh darn funny that many will try to justify Wested's marketing, and not * that hat company, whose name has been stricken from my post, even in it's abreviated form, by the mods *. It is so very similar ( teal versus aqua blue; word mincing...). Everyone's got their favorites, and since many won't dump Wested for say, Wings, or can't afford the higher end jackets ( Nowak, G&B, et al...), they are quick to defend Peter/Wested.

They've all got a buck to make, but Wested didn't affront a beloved member of this forum, so c'est la vie. A week, and that'll be that. Peter/Wested should thank his lucky stars that no one with time on this forum had an active hand in the CS jacket, and that he's one of the more affordable/SA options. Otherwise he might be relegated to the same Indy #### as the unholy DM Akubra Adventurer.

I wrote a lot to say "double standards", didn't I? 'Cept for you, Michaelson, and a couple others. If we're gonna take some sort of moral high ground in here, it has to be all encompassing, in my short term forum member opinion.

after watching it again i do agree that there is an implication that wested made the CS jacket and he even has a CS Indiana jones poster on the wall of the barn. I think that as this footage was made by Kent news and Peters factory is in swanley ,kent the reporter and editor were excentuating the fact that a local man has done so well for himself. overall i think its misleading because the sales of CS jackets may have increased because of this news peice but i guess maybe the reporter and crew didnt even know the jacket in the CS wasnt a wested .

Joe
from Bexley , kent 10 minutes from Swanley

From watching the clip (only the clip and not any other extended interview) my take was that Wested made the Mission Impossible jacket, the Dr. Who jacket, and the Skull jacket.

I only know from having read here that Nowak made the Skull jacket. I know nothing about the other two I mentioned and assume Wested did make those.

I have no idea if was an error by the people who made the short news piece or whatever else transpired, but I doubt the folks at Wested would be horribly upset by having two minutes of great free advertising during a newscast (and what smart business would!?), nor would they probably be too horrified by the implication they made the Skull jackets. It's not some huge thing that would require a retraction.

It's not some huge thing that would require a retraction.

That's what the 'other' hat company thought when they did the same thing with the CS hat news story.

Seriously, this place rocked for days when that hat fiasco happened, and it even spilled over to another website. I've been honestly curious what folks think of this myself, as compared to THAT situation. It's been fairly quiet when this one turned up. If it doesn't really matter, so be it.

I've spent all these years trying to untangle the knotted balls of yarn that formed the history of gear. As troubling as it is to see these things happen, I recognize the fact that it is, indeed, a situation that exists....be it a calulated business decision or a just complete misunderstanding between parties involved. It's happened many times before, and I'm sure it will happen many times after I'm dead and gone.

Regards! Michaelson

I was thinking of a retraction on the part of the news program.

It was done on both sides of the hat situation, news and eventually hat company.

Michaelson

All I heard was Peter saying "this is the Crystal Skull jacket", and a closeup of an Indy picture on the wall.

The setup question (off camera) might have been "let's look at some of your products that look like jackets used in different films".

I agree Peter should set the record straight, but COW reaches a far smaller audience than the TV does. In a TV interview like that, I would severely doubt you would get them to transmit a "clarification" after the fact.

Even if Tony Nowak went on TV, there could be people complaining that they were misled thinking the one he sells was the actual jacket HF wore in the film.

I just don't think it is a big deal. But then I didn't think the hat thing was a big deal, so what do I know?

Trust, but verify.

Trust, but verify.

That's what we try and do here.
That's what brought this up in the first place.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:

Trust, but verify.

That's what we try and do here.
That's what brought this up in the first place.

Regards! Michaelson

My point was, I try to do that as a consumer.

Understood, but MY point was that the mission of this site has been exactly the same thing.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Understood, but MY point was that the mission of this site has been exactly the same thing.

Regards! Michaelson

Yep, that's why it is a great resource for gear consumers. There is so much misleading information out in the wild, that the advice and expertise here is just invaluable.

I'd love to hear if Peter has any comments. It may very well be that he gave a clear position of the jacket lineage but they edited out due to time constraints.

I would like to see the full interview before passing any type of judgement regarding this issue. It is a fact that Peter provided control samples for "CS" but did not make the jacket seen in the film. I do not believe Peter was attemtping to be misleading in this interview but I can understand how someone would think that Wested Leather made the screen used jackets in "CS" as well after watching that video clip.

scot2525 wrote:but I can understand how someone would think that Wested Leather made the screen used jackets in "CS" as well.

but they didnt

regards
Holt

Did they make the jackets for the other films/shows mentioned? I think there was Dr. Who and Bond mentioned.

I ask because I like the Dr. Who jacket.

Look at it this way... more Wested's for the non-SA wanting masses; more TN's for the SA clientele. How many of the original 777 are left?

Raider S wrote:Did they make the jackets for the other films/shows mentioned? I think there was Dr. Who and Bond mentioned.

I ask because I like the Dr. Who jacket.

Yes, they did indeed make those jackets for those productions.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Good report, but a bit troubling too. It implies Wested made the jacket used in CS in interview and photos used. They did not. Tony Nowak did.

Didn't we just go through a fiasco and call for burning at the stake, not only here, but at other forums, when a company in Hollywood allowed it to be implied in a news story that they made the hats used in CS, when it was actually AB? Their excuse was they never SAID they did. It was just IMPLIED they did by the interviewer!

Is this becoming the norm?

Good grief.

Regards! Michaelson

To paraphrase Mark Twain, "If you don't watch the news on television, you are uninformed. If you do watch the news on television, you are misinformed."

ANZAC_1915 wrote: Trust, but verify.

Exactly. It's like they say in journalism, If your Mother says she loves you, get two independent sources of confirmation.

man If Im ever near Kent Im goin to visit the barn on wested lane Ive met peter before so it would be nice to see him again. His shop looks like the leather jacket mecca.

Peter's looking good in that clip,should have had his AB on though! .Thing to remember is Wested is a business and if you run a business you're not going to waste any TV exposure..it's worth a lot,and and if people check out Wested because of seeing the clip,they're not going to take the time to check all the details,they just want a cool looking jacket.Wested was genuinely connected to the productions of all the jackets they showed in the clip.Peter didn't say that Wested made the actual CS film jackets.Wested did supply samples for the film(and it's mentioned on their website)so that's enough..look at Barron and how much millage they've got from the Cliffhanger,which probably wasn't even screenused.The association is enough.If Peter had shown the Wolverine jacket or War of the worlds jacket in the clip then that would have been a different matter.

Can someone explain me what is the story about the hat maker that it's discussed on the middle of this thread?? If it's not possible in this thread then a PM should be fine.

Sorry, but I am a young member in this forum.

Thanks,
Indygr

viewtopic.php?t=31268

Jack

Ok, so if I now am understanding the current thinking here, CairoIndy, 'guilt' by association is now a legitimate purchasing point in marketing a product. If you are involved in any pre-production activitiy, big OR small, you can now imply you were involved in the creation of screen used items in your marketing and reporting efforts?

Interesting.

If that is now the case, those of you who hounded Mark at Barons Hats for doing this exact same thing with the CS hat now owe him a HUGE apology. He was legitimately involved in helping the costumer with the hats after they arrived for production, so by that definition, he had just as much right to imply he made the screen used hat too.

Wow.

Thanks for the input. I'll have to correct my way of advising folks offline now if this is the current wave. Interesting discussion. I'm honestly wanting to know where this hobby is going, as it appears folks are now willing to accept any connections to a film as being legitimate. Not saying it's bad, but definitely a departure from our norm.

Oh, and kiltie, no one 'abbreviated' a hat makers name in your post or struck anything from your post. If you used a name of a banned member, the word censor automatically removed it. If you meant to say Barons, there was no reason to abbreviate the word.

Regards! Michaelson

I don't think anything was being 'implied' in this clip,but it seems to be open to interpretation .Been down this road before ..personally I don't think one can worry about ethics in a hobby where some of the best gear we own are copies,not made by the original makers.

CairoIndy wrote:I don't think anything was being implied at all in this clip,but it seemes to be open to interpretation.Been down this road before ...personally,I don't think one can talk about ethics in a hobby where the so much of the best gear we have are copies not made by the original makers.

You honestly don't believe anything has been implied in this clip, even though the CS Wested version is displayed after two legitimate film used items are shown before, the ONLY film scenes shown in the clip are from CS, along with the CS poster hanging on the wall above the man sewing a jacket? Nothing from Raiders, or LC? No implications being made at all? Well, ok. My mistake then.

No one has said a thing about 'ethics'. There's nothing unethical about what's occured here, though there is an implication it could be construed as such, depending on what effect was intended with the clip and how it was presented. If it was just what the film editor was able to grab to create the piece (and I'm an editor, so I know how that works), then it's all a coincidence.....but if it was put together to lead the viewer to conclude otherwise, then yes, totally unethical. It's all in how it's viewed. (Yes, we're currently holding a class in law and ethics at the Institute this summer, so I'm recording these discussions twice a week for 5 hours! )

Ethics? Whose ethics are we going by? That's the rub, as there's no black and white. For some, certain practices are found completely revolting and repugnent to an individual as being completely unethical, and yet to another, the same practice is perfectly ethical in application. Whose ethics are we discussing?

In our case we're hobbiests. We're buying, selling and trading amongst ourselves. In this case we're talking about companies who are making items to sell to anyone who will believe their marketing, hobbiest and outsider alike, and I'm not just referring to this specific item.

In one situation on the hats, we were a raging mob ready to storm Baron's with pitchforks and blazing tar. This one, we're winking and nudging each other and saying 'it's not that big a deal'. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the polarization of this group on this subject. I think that L&E class jarred a few more brain cells than usual this summer!

Like I said, interesting to see how folks are viewing this particular situation, considering how the other one was handled.

Regards! Michaelson

Ok, since you all are dying for my perspective...here it is.

I think the "legal standard" could be applied to this case, which is what "a reasonable person" would believe. I think a "reasonable person" would believe that the jackets for the movies/shows mentioned in the piece were produced by Peter and Wested, because that is what the news story is about...not just some regular old costume shop, but a place that makes leather goods for "Hollywood."

The next issue is intention. Did Peter intend for the story to air in this fashion? I don't know. Was anything edited out that would explain the whole CS jacket being made by Tony, and the Wested is a copy? Don't know that either. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt that they asked for the CS jacket, because that's what's current...not Raiders. (However, I think the Raiders would have been a better story. ).

But, without Peter's input, we're all speculating.

You know all that need to be done was to say the same things they did for the Dr. Who jacket and the Bond jacket - simply say the INDIANA JONES jacket. No need at all to mention Skull. Then, even if it seemed implied, nobody could point a finger and say it was intentional. It was the mentioning of the movie title that made the true connection. Even with the trailer clip at the beginning that could be seen as simpley the station taking advantage of the hype from the new movie.

The thing I find puzzling was why mention Skull at all? Just say Indy and let people assume anything they want.

Good points.

I kind of feel that if Peter didn't have final say on the final edit (and that happens a lot), and they really did him more of a dis-service by NOT commenting and showing scenes and the like from the other films, as it would have EASILY tied in the fact that his hands have been all OVER the entire franchise......not just his pre-production involvement in the current film.

Just thinking out loud.

Regards! Michaelson

I've been misquoted in local papers before, so it's not new that the media will sometimes shape things a bit. But it is true that there was a lynch mob going after Baron's when they made the implied comments that they actually made Indy's screen used hats for CS. The media outlet that reported it was also contacted, and after that, statements were redacted and retracted from both sources. But if I recall correctly, Baron's apparently kept the interview up on the web after the fact, at least until it was strongly pointed out.

Now we have the confusion caused by this current interview as to whether there was intent or not to paint Wested as the maker of the CS jacket, but the reactions here are far from the mob that went after Baron. What strikes me is that it appears as if fan base loyalties may play more into this than whatever legal implications or grey areas are at stake. Is Baron's a local favourite? Not compared to the likes of the loved Adventurebilt or Wested names. If it comes down to customer loyalty here on COW more than legitimate legal or moral concerns, then it is true that we paid Baron's a dis-service and the double standard comes from us, the fans.

I will be interested in Peter's take on this, too.