Club Obi Wan

Id like to sorta FORMALLY introduce myself here.
I am a 3rd degree blackbelt in TaeKwonDo and Hapkido. I have trained in these arts for over half my life and have also studied a broad range of martial weaponry. i specialize in sword , specifically Japanese Katana (iaido and kenjutsu), European broadsword (Talhoffer and Fiore) KungFu Broadsword (Dao), Rapier (italian) Rapier and Dagger (Destreza) I have also been trained in other various Asian Martial Arts weapons such as Kama, Sai, Bo, Nunchucka, Escrima and more recently butterfly swords.

I say all of this not to try to throw out some kinda resume, but just a background of my martial arts. As far as open hand stuff, as i said my two "base" arts are TaeKwondo, which is the punching and kicking stuff, and Hapkido, which is alot of Joint locks, pressure points, throws and breaks. I really beleive in cross training in arts, so I also have experience with kungfu, "brazilian" jujitsu and well as Tai Chi, which i used to instruct at my local college...

I have been studying Bullwhip for a little over a month now, and Im sure some have seen my progress vidoes. I owe all i know to Paul Nolan, Dan Trout and Lauren Wickline.... they are my Online Whip "senseis" hahaa..
I have approached the bullwhip much as I approach any other weapon, I try to learn as much about it as i can from the folks that know it well, but also try to put my own take on it, and think outside the box about it.

Before I continue, allow me to lay down some ground "terms" so you can understand what I mean when i refer to different aspects of combat.
categorize fighting in 3 categories and 1 subcategory:

-Long range fighting: essentially; guns or any other projectile weapon

-intermediate range: hand held weapons; staffs, swords

-Close range: can include knives and other weapons, but mainly this is the hand to hand stuff... you are within arms reach essentially

and the last category, which is more of a subcatergory is:

-Extreme close range: basically you are close enough to KISS the person, this is usually ground fighting etc...

I truely beleive that in order for a person to be a well rounded warrior that they must be skilled in each of these categories because ANY fight can start or end in any of those groups...
So i started thinking about where the bullwhip fit in?
initially i knew From Anthony's videos that it would work great in close range and extreme close range... chokes and nasty stuff like that, but thatd be using it like a ROPE really..... This is something I already practice in Hapkido, so its an easy transition.

Then i started thinking about the intermediate range....
While at the Dojang (Korean word for Dojo), I was practicing my cracks etc and realize that, while showy, they are not much more... how could you CRACK and use it defensive/offensively...
So heres what I tried:
I set up water filled punching bags.. these are the kind that sit on the floor and can be adjusted. they were actually empty incidently.. they were spaced a few feet apart as if they were two people walking up to you.....aggressivly.
I sat a foam rubber sparring headgear on each of the bags to replicate someones HEAD..
At first, I just tried "decapitating" them with cracks... I got to the point where i could use a Queensland flash to take um both out..... sidearm to the guy on the rights head..... and overhead crack to the guy on the lefts head........ i got pretty fast with that...
then i thought...
what if they were armed?
So i imagined the guy on the right had a knife
for the guy on the left, I took a foam practice sword and laid it accross the top of the bag so about 2 or 3 feet of it were sticking off...
I was able to pop the knife out of the guy on the right's "hand" and turn that into a overhead throw that i was able to GRAB the sword and pull it away, and then queensland flash and take both of the headgear off the bags wihtout ever touching the bag....

What did i learn?
well... for everytime i got this "right" i probably got it wrong 5 times )
a Bullwhip would NOT be my first choice in a weapon...... BUT, if you read the categories of range listed above, close range and extreme close range are two places you do NOT want to be in.... so the bullwhip is useful at keeping opponents at distance, but can actually be pretty painful....
I crack to the eyes could wound someone long enough to RUN, which is the ONLY surefire way to stay alive!

I plan to work with this some more, and will no doubt make a video of whats discribed above.

hey!

thats what I do...I'm experimenting with the bullwhip and martial arts..but just for fun and nothing else..

I am a 2nd degree black belt in WTF Taekwondo

have some loud cracking with some ap-chagi's and yop-chagi's.hehe


kind regards
Holt

a fellow MAist!!! awesome!!!
nice to meet ya bro!
I have a nice nylon whip coming from rjallen770 that will probably work better with this.
i felt really bad hittling thise plastic bags iwth my Cowhide Lauren whip...

a nylon whip will suit this better I think...

Ron's making some great whip's he is a very nice dude too..

cool to meet ya..

before this thread is derayled by me with to much taekwondo talking I would like to say that I'm of to Korea soon...we'll be staying and the sunmudo temple in 3 weeks

I caint whait!!

ok..on to the whip talking again

regards
Eric

I've been practicing MMA for over a year and while I don't have the experience you do, I can certainly agree with what you are saying.

A bullwhip at best is probably good at keeping someone AWAY from you, but not for long OR distracted so you can follow-up with something else. Aside from pulling some weapons away you could also accidentally get the whip wrapped up on their arm or their neck, etc. If that doesn't phase them (and they know what they're doing) they can very well take the whip from you or you're better off using that split-second or so to move in and take them down.

Obviously if you're good at targeting, striking an opponent across the face will certainly leave them reeling...you control the head, you can control the fight because it's natural instinct for everyone to be protective of their face.

Personally I'd use my whip as a flashy distraction in the beginning, get in a couple of strike (across the face of course) if I can manage, then wrap the neck as my quick distraction to then move in.

Some thoughts from a peaceful soul: I know from personal experience that big, tough, wild bulls certainly respect a whip as a real weapon. Without one, they ignore someone on a horse with calm disdain, no matter how much they yell 'til their throats are hoarse, waving hats and standing in the stirrups, or what. But uncoil a whip and crack it, or even strike them with it if absolutely necessary, and err, yes....they listen...fast.

If it came to it, the best use of a whip in a 'wrangle' might be as a shock effect. The sudden wham bang. Don't go swinging it around over and over again, unless only for a short time. Don't let them see the timing in it. Stun the opponent, and then take the next course of action required, whatever that might be (which might be to run like crazy, a la Indiana Jones amongst the wooden crates ). In an urban situation the noise itself might alarm an opponent, as it would direct the attention of others towards the disturbance. Also, the loud crack sound alone might have the effect of momentarily confusing an opponent. It is ear-piercingly loud in the direction of the crack. The strike of a cracking whip, too, is a very hard hit.

If facing an aggressive mob or group a bullwhip might allow precious time to manoeuvre into a better position for escape (hopefully). The mob/group has to have time to re-formulate around a plan of attack. Finally, if some loony is threatening people with a gun, a whip can at the very least easily deflect the barrel or arm of the gunman, as long as it isn't pointed at the holder of the whip. This then opens up the possibility of someone rushing in quickly and disarming him (or it can be wrapped around the gunman's neck, from behind, and violently jerked to throw him off balance). A knife or sword wielder could be thwarted in various ways that would defeat the opponent's efforts to try to cut the thong of the whip.

But let us not forget that a bullwhip is just a handy agricultural tool. One can be used as a climbing tool in an emergency. I have no experience in any of the above, except the first part. I'm not into weapons or martial arts. Just some thoughts on how it might potentially be used by some, in some situations, hopefully very rare.

I too am a martial artist with a background in the Korean arts. I never teach the whip as a weapon, but as a martial tool to help students work on other facets of their art from footwork to focus, breathing and control. We must be careful on how the whip is presented, for if it's seen as a weapon, the wonderful freedom we have with this tool can and WILL be taken away from us. Tread lightly in public.

I also also enjoy martial arts! I studied Tae kwon do, and briefly fencing and boxing. I'm planning to study kung fu, starting this fall, and I'm really looking for a place to learn Jeet Kune Do, which I think is super cool.

Now... if only there were somewhere to learn ninjitsu...

Shane

That's the way I see it too, as a tool but not a weapon. A highly specialized tool to be sure, but in the end somehow different to 'a weapon'. That's why a whip is so special. It can potentially be used to defeat someone with a true weapon; even if that only means just getting away

very interesting topik for me
I been practicing whipboxing for over a 5 years and whipfigting metod by Tom Meadows at about year. I have some experiense in other martial arts but at few years I have concentrated on whip fight.
In my opinion whip is not perfect weapon, but I like it .
Whip as weapon has limitations but it is possible to escape their , knowing them .
I use 5' stock whip for whipboxing and 4-5' bullwhip for Latigo and daga metod.

This is an interesting spin on a topic that has been brought up here before.

I’ve always been in the camp where just about anything can be a weapon in the right hands. The trouble with classifying a whip as a weapon, and why many of us feel uncomfortable doing so, isn’t that it can’t be used as one or that it doesn’t make an effective one, but rather it puts them on the “shady” side of the law. For good or for bad, the public is generally afraid of weapons in any sense and that makes it more difficult for us to use them in public. In doing so with whips it makes then automatically threatening, thought not always intentionally they become something to be feared, something that can harm you which a negative in the eyes of the Law.

Still with that said, No way, no how would I want to get into a fight with someone who really knew how to use a whip. While the sound is intimidating enough and the whip in the right hands is a supersonic ally or adversity, We’ve probably all seen the damage it can do on accident, the welts and bruises are one thing but in the hands of an expert who can work the tip of the whip with precise accuracy as it cracks, it doesn’t just slap and sting, it breaks, slices and cuts with very little effort.

Dan

I agree with many comments here. I hate calling it a weapon because then it makes it even more difficult for us to enjoy our hobby. Already and it's often difficult for some people to enjoy it in a park or in their own yard.

I do believe it can be used as a weapon however (I say this on here because we aren't out in public). Just pay attention to Anthony DeLongis and what he has to say. He's been doing that stuff for many years. Go pick up the Filipino Whip Fighting book. TONS of great information about the whip used in a different way then what we are use to. I do believe that some members around here whom are great with the whip (we know who they are) could for surely be threatening.
It's not really about how many times you strike though either, I don't know about you guys, but one strike with a whip to the face or the throat, and I'm sure not gonna be able to attack the person, which gives them time to make their move. You also don't necessarily have to crack the whip, a simple strike with that is going to hurt quite a bit.

The handle alone is hard and could be used as a blunt object to strike.

Here's some videos related to the topic that might be of interest...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IPpWZMqkbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSb_hTRM8WU (it's later on in the video)

I also make a 4 foot snakewhip with a "reversible" handle.
The butt is loaded with 1/4 pound of lead.
The cracking end to keep at bay, the butt for cracking skulls. And for those real up close and personal encounters the thong can be used for blood chokes, locks throws etc.
The thong itself makes for good Aikido style defensive stuff.
Ron

well i dont think we should be "affraid" to discuss the whip as a weapon for fear of public opinion..... sorta contradicts stateside "rights" anyway, but dont get me started on that lol...

I mean, i could easily write an entire article on how a Parker Jotter (metal pen) is an extremely deadly weapon........ does that mean that the "public" is going to outlaw them? no.... why?
Because this "fear" that everyone thinks everyone ELSE has is something that "the powers that be" tell you that they have..... its more imagined than you think...... and its a method they use to take away your rights.
So stand up for your rights..... dont cower away from them... (rant off)

Whip is danger bat non lethal weapon , so, it is legal - this is big advantage a whip.

some my movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp883nTHjKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnCHho4fwA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33YUTdIx_k4

Interesting discussion. I too am a TKD student, preparing for my black belt test in August. Our school (approximately 1000 students) does not have any weapons training except for swords which begins after 2nd degree. For myself, I always thought the use of a whip, or whips would be a complimentary technique that would improve general skills, such as balance, speed, agililty, basic movements. I have ordered a 10' whip from Louie, which I plan on trying to incorporate different techniquies into my training. The sheer length of the whip would not be my choice for overall martial arts, I feel two 4-5 footers may be a good choice to try. Those will probably come later. I watched Adam W. on Youtube perform a two whip routine that looks very cool. Maybe he has had martial arts training?


Holt, are you going to visit the Kukkiwon while in Korea?

kooniu wrote:Whip is danger bat non lethal weapon , so, it is legal - this is big advantage a whip.

some my movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp883nTHjKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnCHho4fwA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33YUTdIx_k4

This can and will change if we're not careful however.

Soup wrote:

Holt, are you going to visit the Kukkiwon while in Korea?

off course


bests
Eric

Hollywood,

I am NOT advocating carelessness.

I treat a whip like i treat a sword, knife, gun etc....
I dont step out in my backyard and start firing off rounds lol.

As long as folks stay SMART and use a little common sense, i think we are good to go

However, there is a reason I don't post my whips as tools video's. It is to easy for someone who doesn't understand it to take it the wrong way and use it as evidence for the banning of whips. I keep it private and personal amoungst those of a similar bent. I shudder to think what would happen if some one with an agenda got a hold of whips as weapons. Heck, look at what happened to the nunchaku. G

Man, it makes me shudder to even see the word whip linked in any way to "weapon," or "martial." I hope we won't create an issue or concern in the public's mind, which might end up hurting our cause.

hollywood1340 wrote:However, there is a reason I don't post my whips as tools video's. It is to easy for someone who doesn't understand it to take it the wrong way and use it as evidence for the banning of whips. I keep it private and personal amoungst those of a similar bent. I shudder to think what would happen if some one with an agenda got a hold of whips as weapons. Heck, look at what happened to the nunchaku. G

Hollywood, for the first time I couldn't agree with you more. Most people out there are just afraid of things and treat them as living things, capable of causing damage by themselves, consecuently blamming the object for the damage they cause, and not the people actually using them.

Both as a whipmaker and whip enthusiast, I tend to get worried when I hear some martial artist proclaiming the whip as the "ultimate flexible" weapon. A whip is a tool, a noise making device, not a weapon. Sure, it can be used as a weapon, but the same goes for a fork, or a hammer.

Let's think for a minute what can happen if some of those law-makers looking for things to ban get their eye on whips. I am sure all of us will be regreting this whip-as-a-weapon publicity.

Just my thoughs...

Bernardo

I looked up the Wikipedia definition of whip, it had a section refering to whips and there use as weapons. Our favorite hero was used as an example of whip useage. I Understand everyones concern on categorizing whips as anthing other than sport. The original intent of a whip from what I read have read, has had many uses.

I live in Ireland, here each offensive weapon is illegal (for exaple knives), bat whip is non lethal . I did't hear about any change low so I don't worry

On the other hand I don't think we should shy away from the whip as a weapon, but how it's PRESENTED is of the utmost importance. It's not just going to go away, so we as a community need to find a way to address this that is not simply sweeping it under the rug and pretending it's not out there. LyD is real. Anthony is real, as am I. But it's up to us to ensure the whip remains free for ALL of us to use and enjoy.

Well put Hollywood. The idea of leaving it as 100% innocent doesn't sound right. At times it's actually best to inform people so that they aware, especially new people who are going to try whip cracking so that they know what they are up for and how serious it needs to be taken especially with others around but at the same time keeping it a free enjoyable hobby.

wow this really got derailed, sorry if i took it that way.

I dont think the "whip as a weapon" thought is anything new.... anybody heard of Lash Larue?

Hiding the functions of a item is NOT a good way to ensure rights.
I mean regardless of what the powers that be tell you, a gun is NOT a weapon.... its a TOOL...
It can be used as MANY things, and a weapon is just one of them.
A knife is NOT a weapon, its a tool
I mean i could go on and on here, but that was NOT the purpose of this thread.

Bernardo, I dont purpose that the whip IS any kinda "ultimate weapon".....
Nothing is........
something can be a useful tool, yes.........
but the ONLY Ultimate weapon is your brain... ya noodles.......
everything else is just a tool..

wow this really got derailed, sorry if i took it that way.

Not at all, it's something that needs to be addressed

I dont think the "whip as a weapon" thought is anything new.... anybody heard of Lash Larue?

Lash didn't use his whip as a weapon, in the same way IJ didn't. For most movies its' a tool. To be used to swing across ravines and snatch weapons out of villians hands. Even a wrap to trip or ensnare isn' using the whip as as a weapon, it's using it as a tool, a very important distinction.


Hiding the functions of a item is NOT a good way to ensure rights.
I mean regardless of what the powers that be tell you, a gun is NOT a weapon.... its a TOOL...
It can be used as MANY things, and a weapon is just one of them.
A knife is NOT a weapon, its a tool
I mean i could go on and on here, but that was NOT the purpose of this thread.

Yes, but it's the "Powers that be" that decide if it's legal to use something freely or not. It's not what the object is in OUR minds, it's what the object is in THEIR minds that counts.

Bernardo, I dont purpose that the whip IS any kinda "ultimate weapon".....
Nothing is........
something can be a useful tool, yes.........
but the ONLY Ultimate weapon is your brain... ya noodles.......
everything else is just a tool..

I think the point is missing here. The point as I see it is we as a community need to figure out how to allow us to explore the martial side of the whip without turning it into a weapon, original use or not.

I'm no martial artist, but I got a tiny taste of the whip as a weapon earlier today. I was finishing up making a 10ft Indy, pulling some sinew tight around where the ring knot would be, and the sinew unexpectedly SNAPPED which caused the handle end of the whip to come flying up at my face. The lead knot foundation hit me square on the bridge of my nose, HARD. Now my nose is swollen and I have a splitting headache. So in conclusion, lead to the face would probably be an effective martial arts use of a whip, in the intermediate or close range. (

Lauren Wickline
www.midwestwhips.com

OUCH, Lauren! Take some frozen peas out of the freezer and apply to your nose, pop some Tylanol, and tell Paul to make you one of his martini's, (unless you think you might have a concussion, then avoid the booze! ;-) )

Lash didn't use his whip as a weapon, in the same way IJ didn't. For most movies its' a tool. To be used to swing across ravines and snatch weapons out of villians hands. Even a wrap to trip or ensnare isn' using the whip as as a weapon, it's using it as a tool, a very important distinction.

Actually, Lash LaRue did use his whip as a weapon, as did Doug Fairbanks in "Don Q" as did Indiana Jones. First scene in the first movie in fact. Did no one else notice Barranca holding his wounded hand as he ran away?

WikiPedia, (because it's already been mentioned, not because of accuracy. I tend to take points off papers that use Wikipedia as academic sources,) defines "Weapon" as the following:

A tool employed to gain a tactical advantage over an adversary, usually by injury, defeat, or destruction, or the threat of these.

Webster's definition is similar:

1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy

2 : a means of contending against another

I'd define it as any item that can be uses as a defensive or offensive tool.

Taking a gun out of someone's hand is qualifies as any of the avove. Tripping someone also qualifies. Wrapping them around the waist or around the neck as they try to flee qualifies.

By the definition you're touting, you could argue that if I was to use a gun to shoot a rope that would drop a bucket of sand on you, thereby slowing you down, or causing you to fall, or making you drop your weapon, then the gun isn't a weapon. I'm not USING it as one.

A whip IS a weapon, as much as any knife, sword, yardstick, claw hammer, screwdriver, or baseball bat is. Just like any object is. We can use pointed sticks to build a house, or to hunt animals or other people.

I think people see that regardless of how we paint it.

In fact, I make it a point in EVERY demonstration, talk and lesson that I do to point out that it is DANGEROUS to crack a whip without taking precautions. It is inexcusably irresponsible for ANY of us not to, (yes, I just made a value judgement and professed a Universal Affirmative in the same sentence. I typically try to avoid BOTH of those, so this MUST be something I believe very strongly to be true. But seriously, if anyone wants to argue with me on that, I welcome you to try.)

If we DOWNPLAY the damage the thing can do, then we end up with scenarios like those stupid-@$$ed kids on Youtube who are smacking each other with cheap Indian straw-cored whips. If they got hold of a real one, someone would end up in the hospital.

There are more whips and whip crackers out there now than ever before. (Mark Allen recently commented that he'd sold 40 whips in one week, and I KNOW how far behind David Morgan, Paul Nolan, Joe Strain, and Bernardo are!) The odds of some moron kid who doesn't know any better getting his hands on one and seriously hurting himself or unfortunately more likely, someone else, are getting higher and higher.

This is the reality. It IS inevitable. So it's important that people know what these things can do. If we don't downplay it, then by association, we HAVE to acknowledge the use of a whip as a weapon. There's really no way around it.

Putting our heads in the sand and saying "Whips? NOOOO!!! Not weapons!!! Just Cattle Herding Tools!" will do us no good. It's like saying that .22LR caliber guns are as harmless as a BB Gun, when it is a FACT that more people are killed in the world by .22LR than any other caliber, (I've also read in less juried sources that it's more than any of the other available calibers combined, but don't know for sure.) THAT happens because of the idea that .22 is harmless, so people who should know better let their guard down, and consequently, careless people die, or cause others to. If people take the same casual approach to whips, someone's going to get hurt.

I don't agree too much with DeLongis's "Ultimate Flexible Weapon" deal either. It's no ultimate anything. Not much is these days. Knives, nunchucks, bo-staff, etc. etc. etc.

Glock-Fu trumps all of them.

And I'm afraid ICBM-Fu beats all of that.

Either way, that seems to be the OPPOSITE END of the spectrum from denying the weapon factor altogether.

Now, Anthony is promoting his stuff. It's what he does. You can call him REAL, but he's Hollywood Stuntman who is promoting himself and his trade. Yeah, he's a martial artist. But in those clips where he says things like that, he's first and foremost a salesman. And a darn good one. I tend to like his message and his work, but lets not delude ourselves in thinking that what he's saying is also what he believes and knows to be true.

Yeah, I've seen the Latigo y Daga stuff, I've read Tom Meadow's book, and I've seen the video footage of DeLongis vs. the Dog Brothers.

Yeah, it's cool, and it's interesting, and it's got some practical application to it, but when it all boils down, it's as hypothetical as the "Armored Knight vs. Samurai Warrior," or even "Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer," (OK...It's more practical a discussion than Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer.)

Using a whip in actual street combat is HIGHLY unlikely, and against a guy with a knife or a gun, you've got trouble. Now, if you've trained hard-and-heavy with a whip, and you're calm, and cool, while the other guy is twitchy, and unfamiliar with his weapon, your odds are better, but STILL... if you're interested in actual self-defence, you'd be better off to buy a gun or a kobotan, or a stun gun, and train with that. It will serve you better, and you'll probably get far better with them in the amount of time it takes you to become THAT proficient with a whip.

In any case, the idea of a whip being used in violent crime is just bloody laughable. Can you IMAGINE someone trying to hold up a liquor store with a whip? You'd be better off with a broken bottle.

A true warrior, is above all things, practical, (but then, a true warrior is not a common thief either. But once again, that's a value judgement. I digress.)

The whip is at best a great training weapon, (like a sword or a staff or whatever.) Train with the tool so that you are better when you're without it. Training with a sword, or a staff, or whatever makes you better because it's training your MIND, (as David pointed out. Sharpest weapon of all.)

I don't know of as many people who have issue with martial arts "Weapons."

Yes, some do, and a big deal has been made historically about nunchucks, and balisongs, (butterfly knives,) and more recently samurai swords.

I find this whole things to be sorta funny because most of the people who would use ANY of those items to commit crime are more likely to hurt themselves with them than anyone else. A person who has trained with them typically has more sense than that.)

The people who have a problem will scream and rail about anything, and with the right people in office, and the right press coverage can get their ignorance out there, (first guns, then knives, and more recently a bid to remove cooking knives and crummy stainless Samurai Swords. You guys in the UK better start learning to use plastic, blunted-end chopsticks REALLY WELL! It's so unfortunate that enlightment is a seed that has to be planted quietly, and slowly nurtured to health to spread and grow, while plain STOOPID just spreads like wildfire!)

So, I ALWAYS point out that the whip can be a weapon, just like any item, and demonstrate HOW it can be used as a weapon, (and I typically talk about it as a weapon for theatrical and cinematic purposes,) but also all it's downsides and limitations as a "Practical Weapon" as well. And then I spend the MAJORITY of my time talking about how cool the whip is, and how much fun it is, and what good exercise, and the science behind how it works. All the while, cracking, and cutting targets, and generally showing off.

People are fascinated by whips, and you can educate and TALK about them being a tool that could be used as a weapon without scaring the bejeezus out of them.

Man!

I'm saddle sore. I'm gonna get off my high horse now.

All the best, and happy SAFE cracking.

-Dan

P.S. The opinions expressed above are solely those of the poster, and do not reflect those of the Administrators of Club Obi Wan, the Society of American Whip Artistry, or any other organization. I'm expecting Dan or Sergei to say something to me as it is about a couple of potentially inflammatory things above, and I wouldn't argue with them. But as I said, there IS no easy answer here, and the longer we try to deny the martial potential of the whip, for fear of the "Thou Shalt Not's" trying to take them away from us, the closer we come to a potentially bad inevitable. Just keep cracking, try to get the "Good Word" out there, and be as kind, courteous, patient, and non-violent as you can.

Respectfully,

-D

But this begs the question, which Enterprise are we talking about here? Sorry, couldn't resist

well I think thefish made some excellant points and echoed alot of what I was saying.

Again, id like to TRY to get this post back on topic as my original aproach was more of a EXPERIMENT than anything else.

In all honesty, i think its great that everyone is so passionate about this art....... be it from any stand point.

Shagbd wrote:I mean regardless of what the powers that be tell you, a gun is NOT a weapon.... its a TOOL...

Yeah, I see tool control on tv and being discussed by politicians all the time. I guarantee you if you get caught carrying one illegally, you won't be charged with carrying a concealed tool.

Say what you will, but I am fairly certain that a fast underhand flick directed at the juncture of the legs will drop the biggest and baddest gorilla in his tracks whimpering and in a fetal position.

For what it is worth, a short lead loaded snakewhip is a very effective defensive weapon/tool. I remember reading that these were outlawed in some places a long time ago. But I think a bullwhip, properly handled will seriously intimidate miscreants and stray dogs at need. Seriously, what kind of psycho attacks with a whip? If you don't fear the weapon, the wacko swinging it would at least give you pause.

Now, if it's flailing around in an indecisive and incompetent manner it's going to get taken from you and you will get throttled. That's a big problem with defensive weapons, the possibility that they could be used against you. If your sloppy and it gets caught by the attacker, you have a real problem! To me, it is at the extreme reach of my imagination to envision a real life scenario that would require me to rely on my whip for surival in a physical confrontation beyond stray dogs.

Not that I don't sometimes imagine being rushed by pirates or ninjas, sometimes pirates AND ninjas, sometimes pirate/ninja hybrids while practicing. Come on, who doesn't? And when they do, I'll be ready!

Weston

Im a law abiding citizen.
anything i carry or dont carry is owned legally and is licensed accordingly.

anyone who carries a gun/knife etc etc illegally is a moron and is acting irresponsibly...... those people are called criminals and beleive it or not, are the MINORITY in our society...
so why do the actions of the minority determine the destiny of the majority? makes no sense.

This thread has gotten completely off topic.

I had planned to make some videos to post to back up my original post, but i can see that it would serve no purpose here.
too bad, this could have been a very interesting thread had it not been derailed........

Weston wrote: To me, it is at the extreme reach of my imagination to envision a real life scenario that would require me to rely on my whip for surival in a physical confrontation beyond stray dogs.

Not that I don't sometimes imagine being rushed by pirates or ninjas, sometimes pirates AND ninjas, sometimes pirate/ninja hybrids while practicing. Come on, who doesn't? And when they do, I'll be ready!

Weston

.......... which is what the initial purpose of this post was all about..... to talk about the whip as a weapon in a hypothetical sense...... not get off on some kinda weapons rights tangent that is neither here nor there....

but i digress....

Everyone has brought up Lots of good points in this discussion on both sides of the debate.

For me, there is no fear to discuss whips as weapons, but rather a choice to portray the use of the whip more as a positive art form or as a sport like activity rather then a negative. For along time whips have been seen as a tool of punishment, cruelty or as something dark and bad. Groups like the now defunct Wild West Arts Club, the Whip Enthusiast group, the Australian Whipcrackers & Plaiters Association and the Society of American Whip Artistry amongs others have done a lot to help bring whip cracking out of those shadows and portray whips and whip cracking in a positive light.

So my concerns really have little to do with whether or not whips can be incorporated into martial arts, or used as a weapon because they can on both accounts. It’s more along the line of how should we responsibly portray them. The Martial Arts are a very dignified, honorable and positive activity, so there shouldn’t be any real negative connotation in incorporating whip use into them. I would just hate to see that positive progress backslide to where whips are put in the same category as flee market nunchakus or stiletto switchblades and be banned because of bad publicity caused by a few irresponsible morons who try to use them as a weapon and end up hurting someone other then themselves. We have enough members here who have been warned and chased out of public parks by the police for cracking whips. If the whip where to ever become clearly classified as a weapon in the eyes of the law, it wouldn’t be long before those same unknowing whip enthusiasts start getting ticketed or arrested and having their $700.00 Indiana Jones bullwhip confiscated.

Those of you who know me, know that am far from a newbie when it comes to whip cracking. I know the potential the whip has as an art, as a sport and yes as a weapon. I have explored them all and utilized them in great dept but even my own feelings on this topic are mixed. The Bullwhips and Australian stock whips where never intended to be used as weapons. For all intensive purposes they are tools designed to make noise to move livestock. But I am also very aware that historically many weapons developed from tools and like it or not if one has the intent to use an object, Any object (including a whip) as a weapon, it’s a weapon.

Like Hollywood said, “how it's PRESENTED is of the utmost importance” as there is a thin between the whip a dangerous weapon to where it draws in negative publicly or as a tool or as an item for sport and recreation, but there is no easy answers one-way or the other.

Now it's time to stop hijacking Shagbd’s thread and let him get it back on track to his original approach and experiment… I for one would enjoy seeing those videos! The MOD has spoken!

So Play nice and that goes double for you "Other" Dan

Dan

I think I get you Shagbd. I hope we still get to see your video.

Weston

Thank you Borton....

.............so um...... Can i still post my videos?

Your welcome, and only if they are good! I dont want to watch bad whipcracking videos

Dan

This has all been about the whip as a weapon in a hypothetical sense. The sphere of influence is always bigger then pure technique as are the consequences. I can't teach or talk about giving a knifehand to the throat without also thinking and discussing about what can happen afterward or weighing my options.
But by all means post your videos. As a hapkido stylist myself, danbong and rope comes out in my scenarios. I use a longer handled whip as a rule and on occasion I can even pull off some of my cane techniques. You mentioned the ranges of combat, something to always consider no matter what the weapon. So you do you, with a whip, deal with those different ranges?

BullWhipBorton wrote:So Play nice and that goes double for you "Other" Dan

Hey! What did I do? I was on HIS side!

Awwww...RATZ! Mom always liked you better too, David! Now yer gettin' me in trouble with The Man!!!!

Oh, and by the way, James. Original Enterprise. NCC-1701. If it was the 1701-D, then Picard would be having Vader over for Tea, trying to uphold the Prime Directive and getting his bald little head sliced off with a lightsaber.

Captain James Tiberius Kirk would see that big triangle thing come out of hyperspace and it'd be "Forward Photon Torpedo Tubes and Phaser Banks, Lock and Load!"

Yeah, D has more firepower, but The Power of the Force is insignificant compared to the Power of the Shat!



Oh, sorry...hijacked again. So, David...video's...let's see 'em!

-Dan

I agree with "thefish". Even in my short time cracking I can already tell that having the whiplash you in the face would be extremely painful, and perhaps permanently blinding.

But the whip is an EXTREMELY specific TOOL, with a very fixed range, and needing a lot of space to employ. Any of you guys hear of the "21 foot rule", also known as the Tueller Drill?

The idea is that the average man can run TWENTY ONE FEET in a second and a half, which is about the time it takes a decent shooter to present their pistol from the holster and press off an aimed shot. So everyone has a 21 foot radius dome around them where their reaction speed fails against the approach speed of an assailant.

I've never "speed cracked", but I bet it would be hard to get off an aimed crack in less than a second and a half, much less time it so that the bad guy is within the strike zone of the cracker (longer the whip, the farther away the guy must be/less reaction time you have).

So I think the typical bullwhip would be a poor weapon overall. I'm sure you could make a dedicated fighting whip that was short, fast, and barbed or something, which could cause lots of damage. But I don't think any whip would incapacitate with just one hit, nor would they allow for more than one strike before things get ugly. So as a defensive weapon for a law abiding person, they are a poor choice when compared to pepper spray, batons, knives, or guns.

Really, I think whips would be more effective as an intimidation tool, hence would better serve in the hands of criminals than us. Of course a whip is just a tool, so its purpose is determined by the wielder.

But it would be VERY easy to demonize the whip, just like the firearm, switchblade, extendable baton, brass knuckles, tomahawk, etc. Some folks will go to ANY length to try to nerf-coat the world (our British and Australian kindred know this all too well) so the whip could easily get added to the list of prohibited weapons since most folks only exposure is seeing it as a weapon in "The Rundown" or "Underworld".

Seeing as how most of us are not herding cattle or performing with lions, I think the showmanship aspect of whips is what we ought to emphasize.

But I think it would be cool to see a whip integrated into a martial art. Since it is a very flashy weapon it would add a lot of punch and pizazz to katas and you could probably find a lot of interesting uses for it.

Like Hollywood said, “how it's PRESENTED is of the utmost importance” as there is a thin between the whip a dangerous weapon to where it draws in negative publicly or as a tool or as an item for sport and recreation, but there is no easy answers one-way or the other.

I agree, it is always difficult to anticipate how the general public will view or accept something they do not understand, perception at best is impossible to predict. However,I don't believe we are in the beginning stages of a negative campaign against whips and their useage for committing crimes. I believe that is what we fear most is their improper use. Using any tool or any device in an offensive situation can be considered a weapon, and will generate bad press. Sport cracking, demonstration techniques, entertainment purposes, disarming a sword wielding Thuggee (self defense), we all view as acceptable uses.

Shagbd, like myself practices self defense, skills and techniques. We hope to never have to use what we have learned to protect ourselves or others. Simply using whips as a training tool, shouldn't be alarming to the general public.


Regards,

Mark




[/list]

I've never "speed cracked", but I bet it would be hard to get off an aimed crack in less than a second and a half, much less time it so that the bad guy is within the strike zone of the cracker (longer the whip, the farther away the guy must be/less reaction time you have).

Seriously, with practice and a 6 foot or shorter whip, you can get off some pretty fast cracks, VERY VERY accurately in a fairly confined space. If the whip is IN MY HAND, and I don't have to "Present" as I would a gun from a holster, I can get off about 2 or 3 well-placed cracks in that second-and-a-half, and I'm certainly no master. A good whip artist can top that easily.

I can throw pretty effective flicks pretty rapidly with my 6.5 foot Jacka in my living room, which doesn't have an incredible amount of space to work in. About 10 foot ceiling, (it's a cabin with a vaulted ceiling, but it slopes down to about 10 foot,) and about 13X6 foot of floor space. I actually like to practice in confined environments sometimes. THAT teaches a lot of control and keeping the whip NEAR the body. Not that I'm expecting to get in a whip fight in a small room, but when you're out performing, you never know WHERE people are going to ask you to work. That, and if you practice in a small space, then working in a wide open one is THAT much easier.

That's the main thing as well. Keeping the whip INSIDE a particular radius, and using it more as a striking weapon than a slashing one, (I don't always use that "Rolling Loop" Supinated technique that DeLongis talks about, but it's the exact same thing.) It works the same way as fencing and knife fighting, a knife or sword WAY OUT away from the body isn't going to be as effective and efficient as one held close into the body and then thrust out in a strike. DeGrassi's 16th Century "Art of Defence" text on sword combat points out that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, and so therefore a straight thrust is more efficient than the arc of a slash.

Back in my days of Duello fencing, that was my quickest way to size up my opponent; How close he kept his sword to his body. If he had it WAY out there, trying to keep it between me and him, then it was easy. They're off balance and just ASKING for you to disarm or walk right past the weapon. You envelop his blade and either use it against him, or move in to thrust with your own, (using that same CQC technique of getting close enough to kiss him. If he, (or she,) took a step back, where their sword hand was behind them, and their offhand was in front of them, then I had to seriously consider how I'd approach my attack.

That's the thing with the whip as well, especially longer ones. Someone out there swinging the whip wide, using "Loop Cracks" which have a fairly long setup, (as you "Load" the whip in the opposite direction that it cracks, therefore the whip has to travel a full 180 degrees,) the whip is WAY out from the body, and the movement is very telegraphed. After one or two cracks, a good opponent will have your timing down and will just cover that 21 feet Jason mentions before you can setup the next crack, and you're done, (good point, BTW. We covered Tueller Drills in the tactical part of my CCW class.) For that reason, flicks are more effective than loop cracks when using the whip as a weapon.

For those who are interested in this thread, if I haven't said this already, I HIGHLY recommend Tom Meadows' book "The Filipino Fighting Whip." It is essentially about the Latigo y Daga "Whip and Knife" system that is very heavily based on escrima and rope techniques, (I THINK I've mentioned this to Shagbd, and Hollywood and I have already gabbed about it extensively during a long 2AM phone call. Well, it was 2AM here. Far earlier out in Montana! ;-) ) I loved that book! I unfortunately loaned it out about 2 years ago, and haven't gotten it back, (nor do I plan to,) and I haven't replaced it yet.

Tom's book mostly covers flick-type cracks, and in his drills he uses mostly flicks. Why? Because the follow through for a flick crack sets up the next one faster than you can with a loop crack. And with flick cracks, you can quickly change the plane of attack that the whip travels in so that the whip comes in from different directions VERY quickly. Because you need to telegraph with loop cracks so much, it's easy to see what direction the crack is going to come from. Therefore, you can DODGE a loop crack, because you're moving out of the way BEFORE the whip starts that rapid acceleration to Mach 1. Not so with the flick. By the time you see where the whip is coming from, it's too late.

The whole disarm shot in the first scene in Raiders is like that. Indy uses a loop crack, (a cattleman's or circus.) Now, bear in mind that he had the element of surprise, but still...a little much. The same move in Crystal Skull is a lot closer to what would work. Whip near the body, snakes out in a flick and BANG, you've taken the gun away. Sort of Over The Top with that 10 foot whip, but far more efficient a move, (as Harrison had worked with a martial artist rather than a stunt man in the prep for this film. Notice as well, that he surprised one guard BEFORE throwing the crack to cause some confusion before attempting to use that whip. Double surprise element.)

Loop cracks can also pull the body off balance more easily than flicks. Flicks can be thrown very easily near the centerline of the body, and the power you put into a flick comes more from the body than from the arcing motion of the whip. With flick cracks, (and with loop cracks to a lesser extent,) I try to draw the energy that I'm putting into the whip up from my foot, and not so much from my shoulder, or arm or wrist. But kinda throw my weight into it slightly, the way you would a punch or a sword thrust.

When I started cracking, it was just all arm/wrist/shoulder. That led to a considerable amount of sore muscles. I can crack a whip for hours at a time now, not only because the muscles are used to it, and I'm not working as hard at it, but also because it's not my ARM doing all the work. It's the whip and to a greater extent, the force that has been draw through my whole body and not just my shoulder.

If you've seen DeLongis's whip videos, DON'T STOP THERE. His "Rapier and Broadsword for the Stage and Screen: The DeLongis Method" videos are in my opinion THE BEST theatrical swordplay videos out there. Yes, they are for Dramatic Violence, which is NOT REAL, but the techniques he talks about have a VERY SOLID real-world basis, (unlike every other western theatrical combat system that I've seen, save for the work of Bill Hobbs!) and EVERY THING that he covers in those sword videos, applies DIRECTLY to whip work as well.

I'm also with Jason that whips aren't typically good for defense. Whips are really only good as an offensive weapon, because their main strength is speed and surprise. The crack can also be very intimidating and distracting, and to strike with a whip...Well..you don't need a barb on the tip or steel wire in the popper to tear something up. Heavy cloth will prevent it from cutting you, but I've seen some pretty nasty deep tissue and muscle bruises from a bullwhip blow that transferred through canvas.

Leather falls with nylon poppers are probably still more effective than anything else you could put on there. Steel and silver tips might look cool in movies, but they tend to throw the weight off on the fall, which effects accuracy and because that little barbed bit is attached to the fall and then jerked at the end at Mach 1, they tear the fall to pieces, and will most likely go flying off after a few solid cracks.

I've seen whips with steel cores and falls, and poppers made of piano wire. Heck, I've USED thin Kevlar, (bowstring material,) poppers that cut through cucumbers like a hot knife through butter, and I've cracked a stainless steel chainmail bullwhip. But these are gimmicks at best, and ultimately, I don't think are in any way as efficient and as versatile as a good ol' nylon popper on a good ol' whitehide fall on a naturally weighted or slightly shot loaded kangaroo bullwhip.

Well aimed strikes at exposed skin, (slash across the forehead that bleeds, so blood runs down in your opponent's eyes, or fast flick to the eyes, face, bridge of the nose, back of the weapon hand a la Barranca, etc.) are the best use.

In whip boxing, (do a search and check it out. Two folks in fencing masks heavy gloves and Aussie canvas dusters each armed with a stockwhip. Only valid target it a small spot on the mask. Based on points scored in a timed round,) the point is to be accurate. The whip is the fast part. They say right in the info about it: "There's no use trying to dodge something that's travelling at you at 800 miles per hour!"

THERE'S your strength. THERE'S the advantage. The tip of that whip is travelling faster than a speeding bullet...

I've been meaning to get back into doing stuff with the OU Fencing Club here in Athens, which covers European Renaissance Duello-style rapier combat rather than Olympic style modern sport fencing. While whips are traditionally frowned on in their rules, (and who can blame them. Anything that severely binds a weapon is frowned upon, and it's against the rules to hit your opponant with anything but a sword blade. So, no swats with rigid parrys, cloaks, etc. An idiot with a whip could break the wrist of their opponent with a badly timed wrap,) I've been looking at the whip boxing stuff, and what they are wearing for protection, and that's VERY similar to what we do in Duello, (Standard FIE Fencing Jacket with ANOTHER layer over top. FIE 3 weapon mask with a heavy hood under that. NO SKIN MAY BE EXPOSED ON THE BODY, and any seam or place where one piece of clothing meets another MUST have a 3" overlap. That goes for pants, shoes, gloves, masks, jackets. These folks are going at it full speed with unsharpened swords with rubber tips on the ends. One breaks or develops a barb, and someone gets hurt BAD.)

I've known the coaches for over a decade, and they've been trying to entice me back. I've convinced them to allow us to "Experiment" with whips, (pretty much, just me with the whip and some other weapon...most likely dagger...against one of the two coaches until we get some stuff worked out. That, and I think they want me to work with them on the whip too, because hey...it's just G-Darn cool!) Before I do that, I want to get a nylon whip, (probably July when Steve "Jabbahutt" Huntress is back to normal business,) and I pick up another copy of Meadow's book to brush up before Fall when practice resumes.

I'll keep you posted on this. Could be cool, and certainly a different sort of application to what you guys are experimenting with.

Lordy, I do go on at length don't I? Sorry, this has been something that has very much been on my mind for about 2 or 3 years, and of late even more so.

I've been meaning to shoot some videos that cover what I'm talking about, but I just haven't gotten out to do it, (that and I've been facing some computer-based limitations of late. Need a new one, and am waiting for a certain model to be released. In the mean time, chugging along on a 9 year old fossil! Got to baby it along, so I don't kill it! I shot about an hour of footage of me with whips a week or so ago, but I'm trying to chop it down into manageable, relevant bits, and the computer is arguing. So, I'm working on it!)

In the meantime: David! Videos!

-Dan

The idea of a whip as a non fatal weapon is laughable. A strike with the handle or doubled up thong to the neck has the very real possiblity of killiing soneone, not to mention the strangulation possiblitlies possible with a whip. When talking about the whip as a weapon it's not just the bit at the end that does damage. That's only the show and noisy bit.

a cane of beer in plastic bag is more dangerous than whip.

What about Crocodile Dundee on the streets of New York, stooping down to nonchalantly pick up a can of soup?

I've seen a 'full blood' indigenous Australian pick up a flat rock, in the same carefree style as the above, and throw it an enormous distance at a snake slithering across a rocky outcrop, and break its back with that one throw...

That's martial arts for you