Club Obi Wan

I was just wondering..........
Which whip is best if i didn't have a spending limit?

It is my understanding that for total quality Joe Strain can not be beaten. I have a Joe Strain 8ft that I own that is incredible. I highly recommend him for premium grade whips. He is also a super nice guy with great communication and customer support.

A link to his website:
http://www.northernwhipco.com/

yah i was thinking a strain or a morgan

The current controversy (if you can call it that) is that David's no longer making his whips. IIRC... his children (or grandchildren?) are. So essentially if you're looking for quality, then the modern Morgans are questionable. Unless you found an older Morgan somewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've gathered, this seems to be the case.

Shane

McFly wrote:The current controversy (if you can call it that) is that David's no longer making his whips. IIRC... his children (or grandchildren?) are. So essentially if you're looking for quality, then the modern Morgans are questionable. Unless you found an older Morgan somewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've gathered, this seems to be the case.

Shane

when i purchased my DM, he was still cutting the leather and tying the knots. the plaiting was being done by his son or grandson.

Aha! When did you buy it?

Shane

This is an impossible question to answer.

So much depends on your sensibilities and aesthetic values.
What attributes do you think of when you use the word best?
What style of whip do you favor? How will you use the whip?
Are you thinking collectable or usable? Exotic or practical?

From a personal point of view, I can name makers who are
responsible for some of the whips I own, which I consider "the best."

Joe Strain and Paul Nolan are American makers on my "best" list.
Sy Dave, Bernie (EM Whips), Michael Murphy, SKT Whips, Simon Martin,
and Chris Barr are makers in Australia/New Zealand who would, in my opinion, qualify.

If my house were on fire, God forbid, and I could only save one whip, it would be an agonizing toss-up
between a Paul Nolan whip and a Chris Barr whip- both are exquisite.

David Morgan's name certainly has a cache, but I doubt any serious, knowledgeable, whip fancier
would consider his work the best. Influential, defining, and ground breaking? Of course- without doubt.

I'd say Jacka for myself.

McFly wrote:Aha! When did you buy it?

Shane

last year around summer/fall.

It depends on what you're looking for; what you know and what you like using and looking at/handling. What you have seen before, what your colleagues use if you use whips for work, and what you discriminate against in selecting what is best for you.

I like Morgan style whips best, with 8" handles and with no binding in the transition, made with roohide plaited bellies and kip bolsters. I also like the point of a DM style bullwhip to be not too thin. I consider stockwhip points, for instance, to be in general too thin on a bullwhip, though I realise this is only my opinion and others would strongly disagree because they would rightly say that it affected the action for them. That's fine. I have learned to crack using a certain type of whip, and I like the way I crack a whip, so I seek out the design features that I like.

Start out with a good whip, and develop your preferences from that point of reference.

Some great makers that I know of are Bernardo del Carpio, David Morgan, and Meagan Baldwin (whipmaker for the David Morgan company).

JMObi wrote:
Some great makers that I know of are Bernardo del Carpio, David Morgan, and Meagan Baldwin (whipmaker for the David Morgan company).

Bernardo del Carpio's whips look good

I had a very insightful discussion with Mark Allen of Western Stage Props regarding my Russell Schultz Indy style whip. When I ordered it, i wanted a Strain, but forgot to specify thinking that i would receive a genuine Joe Strain, as advertised in their catalog.
When I received the ten footer, i was slightly dismayed to see that it had an eight strand finish, and just looked soooo fragile! So I got right on the horn to complain. "I'd rather have a Joe Strain!" I said very directly.
Mark was very understanding, and went into the virtues of having a Schultz, namely that his braiding isnt as tight as a Strain, and therefore more accurate, and fluid...He even went as far as saying he couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a Strain, lol.
He praised Russell Schultz's braiding style profusely, and assured me that i was in fact LUCKY to receive a Schultz, as he normally specializes in stock whips.
After having got used to the beauty that is a Schultz, i gotta say i would seek out his bullwhips over a Strain any day....but not over a Morgan, haha...what's in a name?

Sorry but I gotta steer you clear of a Morgan with my opinion. I bought my 10' Morgan 3 years ago and it has had very little use since I got my Strain and DelCarpio whips. The Morgan is very loud on the crack but the Turk's head knot became very loose when I started using it again recently. I sent it back to Morgan and they repaired it without cost. I was excited to try it out and after 3 cracks the knot started coming loose again. So loose that you can see much of the white material that underlays the leather and with much more usage I fear it would come completely undone. I think now I will retire it and let it live its days out as a wall hanger. I'm happy to have it as a piece of American history but still I am disappointed.

-Nebraska

Ravenswood,

With all due respect to Mark Allen, I think he is way off base. My Strain whips and my Schultz whips are among my most prized whips. But to somehow imply that Schultz is somehow superior in handling and accuracy is nonsense. Perhaps in an isolated individual case you might find some advantage in a Schultz whip, but overall I believe Joe Strain' whips to be as good, probably better, in every way.

I almost wonder if there was an underlaying agenda fueling Mark Allen's comments. I certainly remember that he avidly talked up the virtues of Joe's work a couple of years ago when I placed an order with WSP (I ultimately cancelled the order when Mark declined to deliver to PO Box).

I agree that you are lucky to have a Schultz, but I don't agree that you necessarily have a whip that is better than a Joe Strain whip.

I'm agreeing with Boggstandard here for sure. Mark's statements are completely false. Hit the broadside of a barn? I have some what of a heavy 8 foot Strain and can cut small pieces of a spaghetti noodle constantly. Tighter strands affecting it? I wouldn't think so. Yes, a broken in whip is better but that doesn't mean his whips aren't great. Something fueling Marks statement? I couldn't agree more.
Schultz whips do tend to be much more fragile but that's ok, they are nice whips and I've heard great things!

Nebraska Brad wrote:Sorry but I gotta steer you clear of a Morgan with my opinion...he Morgan is very loud on the crack but the Turk's head knot became very loose when I started using it again recently. I sent it back to Morgan and they repaired it without cost. I was excited to try it out and after 3 cracks the knot started coming loose again... I will retire it and let it live its days out as a wall hanger.
-Nebraska

Nebraska,

A Morgan whip a wall hanging! I can't believe I just read that---I better go wash my eyes out with soap. Heh!

Could you post a pic of this problem? I have 4 of his whips purchased over the years (the last just a couple of years ago) and nothing like this has ever happened. (Btw, I'm certainly not implying that it can't happen.)

Did you over condition the whip by any chance, or get too much conditioner on the TH? That might have loosened up the strands.

best,
Gene

Hey Gene

The whip has been conditioned appropriately (I thought it might have been overdone myself) and I once even had it checked over by Joe Strain because I felt that the thong was way too lose. He said that I took "excellent care of it" and that it was very much like all Morgans he has seen in recent years. There is even a strand that was braided incorrectly near the handle and the rep at Morgan said it would not be worth fixing as it would not affect the way the whip handled. Agreed, but still... Luckily a very kind COW vendor has offered to redo the knot for free and assures me that it won't come lose again. Any guesses who?

I will try and post pics in the next couple of days but my plate is pretty full right now.

-Nebraska

Casting my vote for Jacka and Strain.

IndianaJack91 wrote:I was just wondering..........
Which whip is best if i didn't have a spending limit?

IndianaJack,
Since you state money is no option, my vote would be for a screen-used David Morgan whip! A few have popped up at auction in the last few years.

Now if money is actually a consideration, I would recommend a David Morgan, Terry Jacka, or Joe Strain whip. All three are top-notch!! You won't be disappointed. A vintage DM would be the ideal candidate for me.

-Craig

Ok I havent learned how to do the quote thingy, but theres some scuttlebutt that i may have been taken for a ride regarding my Russell Schultz Indy Style whip...Something along the lines of Mark Allen blowing smoke regarding his comparison of Schultz whips versus Strain whips (read above)...OK apart from the whip being a bit more fragile, whats really the problem with the Russell Schultz bullwhip???

They are more fragile. His strands aren't as tight and they tend to be much more thin especially towards the bottom near the keeper where sharp flexing happens and where loose strands are bound to happen the easiest.
Other then that, there really isn't anything wrong with a Russell Schultz whip, which is why I stated that they are still good whips, you just need to care for them more.
Mark Allen blowing smoke? Nah. Never.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a Schulz whip -except tzhat it's not really an accurate Indy whip. For one thing it's a finer whip, and also the knots are the wrong type. It's a still a well made whip though.

My suspicion is that perhaps Mark Allen was trying to unload some of his Shultz whips (afterall, most folks don't want them if they want an Indy whip - they specify Strain - and in particular an Indy style Strain).

His critisism of Joe's whips is hogwash (to use an Americanism). I defy anyone of sound mind to find any fault with one of Joe's whips. They are excellently built, beautifully braided, well balanced and tough as nails. They are the perfect blend of Australian and American tradition, and screen accurate as well.
If Mark says he can't hit a barn with a Strain whip then he's talking out of his rear end for one reason or another. He should know better!

Right on, Whiskyman! I agree with you and everyone who's praised Joe's Work. This thread reminds me of when Joe posted that he wasn't supplying Western Stage Props with any more Indy whips. I wonder if this is the reason, though I wouldn't want to start a rumor. But if a distributor who was selling my whips were to say that, I'd stop supplying them. I apologize if I'm way off base, just a thought I had.

Steve.

Schultz whips do tend to be much more fragile

I'm curious of what you guys consider "fragile"? I have an Em Brand 8ft that ends in 8 plait 5mm, two Mike Bower whips that end in 8 plait 5mm, and a 6ft Jacka that ends in 8 plait but is only 3.5mm stands. None of the whips seem fragile to me. Although the Jacka is really narrow right before the fall knot, it doesn't seem like it would break cracking it. It is also the whip I've used for cutting targets. Has anyone measured the width of the strands at the fall of the Schultz whip?

I've never handled a Schultz so I can't comment on that, but I can on the fragility of the point of a whip. I am very concerned with this part of a whip because the points of my whips caused me grief twice when I was starting out in cracking. I had a redhide bullwhip (cowhide) with a 6 strand point whose strands had been heavily pared or skived so that about half or more of the strand was the hairy part of the leather rather than the smooth grain part. This whip broke a strand in the point very quickly after I bought it. I learned how to repair it, and this really did me a favor because it forced me to learn whipmaking. My next whip was an RMWilliams stockwhip in roo with a thin, 8 strand point (thinner than a Jacka point, with narrower strands and much thinner leather). This broke a strand soon after, too. I felt really let down by the whipmakers in both cases.

From that time onward I wanted whips with strong strands in the point, and a fairly thick point of about 7.5 mm diameter on a Morgan style bullwhip. Others like thinner, more delicate points for faster multiple cracking or a less heavy feeling whip.

What I consider fragile? Well, I don't believe I've used a Schultz whip before (I've used other peoples whips but never really bothered to ask, considering it was just a pile of whips) but the way people talk about Schultz whips, they are fragile compared to others. Does that mean they can't take a beaten? No. But I've often read that their strands break much quicker then what they should or the plaiting comes loose near the keeper easier then what it ought to. I'm very well sure other well educated whip owners who have Schultz can speak about how the braiding tends to be very thin at the end of the whip.

I make the analogy that a Schultz Indy whip compared to a Morgan would be a Rolls Royce compared to a Humvee...You wouldnt take a Rolls Royce off roading, but it sure is a nice car.
Btw, i am reattaching my fall YET AGAIN. My Schultz whip started out as a ten footer, and i am quite frankly afraid to measure it now. It's probably about nine feet, but a couple of inches lost can be attributed to me learning how to replace the fall in the first place.
I used to muscle the whip, now I dont do that any more. Heh, I used to be afraid to even crack it....

I am not sure about the Rolls/Humvee comparison. But, I do know that when you have a Schultz whip, you can expect a more delicate, less meaty, fragile "tip."

I have experienced tip damage on a Morgan whip, but only after many years of usage. With one of my Schultz whips the fraying/breakage occurred almost immediately- after only a few, not very demanding, outings. As a result, my other Schultzes are used sparingly.

Boggstandard wrote: I almost wonder if there was an underlaying agenda fueling Mark Allen's comments. I certainly remember that he avidly talked up the virtues of Joe's work a couple of years ago when I placed an order with WSP (I ultimately cancelled the order when Mark declined to deliver to PO Box).

Hmm...Why you ask?

Perhaps it's that Joe Strain isn't MAKING Indiana Jones whips for Mark anymore. Couple years ago, Strain was making whips for him, so Joe was the most brilliant guy around. Now, Joe is evidently only doing the Zorro's. All the Indy whips are being produced by others.

Perhaps it's that Mark tends to sing the virtues of products that he has LOTS of in stock, and downplay the advantages of what he doesn't. Let's say, for example, he's got a TON of Fiebing's leather conditioner in stock because he bought a LOT of stock when they went from the steel cans to the plastic jars, so THEREFORE Pecard will do nasty things to the belly of the whip after a prolonged amount of time, (so buy my Fiebings.)

(and NO, Pecard's WILL NOT do nasty things to the belly of a whip over time. That's my point.)

Perhaps he can't hit the broad-side of a barn with a Strain because...well...Let's not use the phrase "Past It..." shall we?

Perhaps it's that his heart is just three sizes too small. Who knows?

Russell's whips ARE beautiful. They are light, and they are quick, but he does cut his strands pretty thin. I LOVE Russell's whips. I don't know if I'd own one for anything other than target cracking, and very light work...BUT... Russell's work is still brilliant.

That stated, Strain maintains THE MOST consistent whip I have EVER seen. Yeah, there's lots of guys who make FANTASTIC quality whips. Morgan, Paul, Bernardo, Lauren, Louis, Jacka, Schultz, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on. But Strain is the only maker who's product, sight unseen, uncracked, I could pick up and know EXACTLY, (minus TINY little quirks and individual "Personality Traits,") how that whip was going to roll out, fall, and handle.

That's not dissing those other fine whipmakers. Anything but. They are ALL consistent in top notch beauty and top notch quality. Each whip from each of them is just a little different, and they are able to take that individual hide and make THAT raw material into the best whip it has the potential to be.

Comparing each one of their whips is like comparing the voices of several brilliant prima-donna sopranos. They all do it a little bit differently, and we all have our "favorites" but they are ALL fantastic. I'd like to have one from each of them, (I'm working on it, I'm working on it...) and I'm fairly sure that those makers I've mentioned above who've handled more than one Strain would agree with the following.

Joe is a little bit different. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Strain is a MACHINE. How in the heck he can maintain such incredible consistency in behavior from whip to whip, when EACH ONE of them is made of INCONSISTENT materials, and is hand-split, hand-cut, hand-beveled, hand-stretched, hand-plaited, and hand-finished I will NEVER EVER know.

So...I smell fire blowing out of Vegas, and I'm not quite sure if it's from Mark blowing smoke up his customers' tailpipes, or if it's because he's been smokin' something else over the past year or so.

Either way, just my take. Your mileage may vary.

Anyway, I can't stay here...This is Bat Country...