Club Obi Wan

For the time being please keep all comments, questions and concerns about the whip cracking or lack of whip cracking in the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull to this thread.

Since not everyone has seen the film just yet, and may not for a few days lets try to be polite and not have these topics popping up all over the bullwhip forum. Thanks.

Dan

What whip cracking? Seriously! One swing, one wrap. I was hoping for sooo much more. Anthony himself did more for a 45-second spot on a TV show. Very, verrry dissapointed. I was told my whip demo before the movie had more punch.

I know! Hence my sarcastic comment of the lack of whipcracking.

It's a shame considering all the effort Harrison Ford put into his training for this. I've seen behind the scenes footage of him practicing and working on set, he looked pretty good cracking that bullwhip.

Dan

I just got out of a midnight showing, and yes I'm very disappointed!!! What's the point of practicing with the whip, if its rarely used; as well as change the whip all together, when you rarely see it (or Harrison use it for that matter). Plus, some of it is digital. That's all there is to say. At least right now, because it's extremely late.

So, basically, the whip shots in the trailers are it?

How disappointing...

Though, I guess there weren't that many in Temple or Crusade either. Still, I was hoping for more.

I don't ever want to see that film again.

this isnt a surprise, its not a "WHIP" movie, guys

The_Edge wrote:I don't ever want to see that film again.

Ditto!

That movie s ucked big time. And the fact the whip was only used twice only made it even worse. So much for all the whp training. What a dissapointment. Not even remotely close to the worst of the first three. It didn't even feel like an Indy film.

But, like my friend Paul Nolan said to cheer me up last night, we still have Raiders!

Bernardo

I don't think the movie stunk, but it was certainly the weakest of the four. I did go in hoping for some serious whip action like the rest of you and that was a sorely disappointing element, especially given how prominent the whip features as the trademark climax of the trailers and in the advertising.

What I've come to realize is that there is this movie called "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and after that, Lucas and Spielberg had some fun making these three "Indiana Jones" films...

Hmmmm,

I bought my tickets last night for the 5:00 showing today. It will be interesting to read the posts rolling in the next few days. Bernardos review isn't giving me a warm and fuzzy. How can two guys get things so right with Raiders, and seemingly go so wrong with KOTCS? It can't be just Lucas, Spielberg deserves some of the blame. But again, how do you say 'no way' to Lucas?????

Here's hoping for a little magic at least when I see it tonight.

Scott

You said it, Bernardo. Nothing is going to touch Raiders, b/c it just simply stands alone in a class all itself.

"We'll always have Tanis."

Bernardodc wrote:It didn't even feel like an Indy film.

I agree completely. About half-way through I was just waiting for the film to be over.

That's torn it.

I'm waiting for the video to come out on DVD and then MAYBE I'll rent it.

What a downer.

I completely agree with Bernardo. It didn't feel like an Indy movie from the first 15 to 20 minutes.
Shagbd,
You're right! It's not a whip movie, but if the rest of it was descent and felt like an Indy film, I could probably live with it. Here's an experiment and I hope this helps: If you're disappointed about the amount of whip usage, just look at these little icons for 2 hours and 3 mins. Did it work?

Saw the film last night and I must say I wasn't as disappointed as I thought I'd be. There are parts that work and feel like the Indy we know and love. But then........... there are parts that are just so implausible that it takes you out of the moment.

Remember the scene in Phantom Menace(I think that was the movie) where Jar Jar was in the middle of a battle with the droids? Here was what was supposed to be an intense scene, yet Lucas just had to have his 'comical' moments with Jar Jar bouncing around looking stupid. In this film, the equivalent moment was the truck chase in the jungle. Why, I repeat WHY must Lucas have to water down these scenes?? George, here's a clue, your audience does have intelligence. Give us a film with some next time!

If you look past these scenes, I think there are enough moments in the film that make up for them. I did come out of theater with some of the magic I had hoped for and with that, here's looking ahead to Indy 5.

Scott

I hate to be a nag, but isn't this thread supposed to be about whip work in the Crystal Skull? There are plenty of general movie discussion threads elsewhere.

stealthboy, I think you have a point, but then there's not much to talk about, since there's virtually no whip cracking on Indy 4. Let's see:

There's three scenes where Indy uses the whip.

1.- He grabs the bad guy's gun.

2.- He wraps around the light and swings.

3.- He tosses the whip like a rope to help Mac.

That's it. None of them strictly qualify as whipcracking, although as we all know the wraps are typical for Indy using the whip as a tool to swing or to remove the bad guy's weapon.

I was perusing the official Indy 4 magazine yesterday, and I noticed that Indy also uses the whip in a fight scene with one of the guys wearing the skull masks. Apparently, the guy takes away Mutt's knife, and Indy then grabs his wrist with the whip and pulls the knife away or something. Obviously they either cut this scene, or I was sleeping in the theather and I missed it! )

Opinons?

Regards,

Bernardo

Sure, there's not much to talk about, but that doesn't mean this thread should be hijacked for yet another bash-KotCS thread.

I remember seeing Harrison practicing some whip work in the cemetery; I believe it was to whip the blowgun away from that guy before he could shoot Mutt. They apparently replaced that with him blowing back through the blowgun instead.

from what i can even remember, he only actually cracks his whip in raiders. Its always used to disarm or swing from on the other films.

Indakin wrote:from what i can even remember, he only actually cracks his whip in raiders. Its always used to disarm or swing from on the other films.

Well, remember the lion in the beginning of LC, if that counts...

Let's face it Harry Ford is 65. I am 53 and still crack once a week but he said he hadn't cracked for 18 years.

IMO it showed.......

He said he practiced for a "couple of weeks" before the shoot. Too bad they did not put that practice to use.

Not the Indiana Jones of Old, at least not from my perspective.......

Bill

Indakin wrote:from what i can even remember, he only actually cracks his whip in raiders. Its always used to disarm or swing from on the other films.

And those cracks were only to keep a mob at bay, not to hit. Nothing like snapping some leather in front of someone's face to give you some space.

I haven't seen the new movie yet, but it sounds like he used the whip as much as he did in Temple and Crusade.

Temple: Neck wrap and fan pull, swing from statue, swing between catwalks, disarm a bad guy, and keep Willie from getting too far away.
(Though someone else did crack his whip across his back...)

Crusade: keep a lion back while demonstrating how not to shave with a whip, swing into his father's locked cell, keep his dad from getting pulled beneath the tank, and that's it(?)

Maybe we just expect more after all of these years, from both nostalgia and since most people here know more aobut whip craft. It takes more to impress us than the average movie goer.

I recently re-watched Mask of Zorro and I remember there being more whips in there, but there were only a few scenes too. The candle scene still rocks. And the training motivation.

ETA: added a Temple scene

Whipcrack wrote:Let's face it Harry Ford is 65. I am 53 and still crack once a week but he said he hadn't cracked for 18 years.

IMO it showed.......

He said he practiced for a "couple of weeks" before the shoot. Too bad they did not put that practice to use.

Not the Indiana Jones of Old, at least not from my perspective.......

Bill

Everything that's been said he was capable of much more.

I think a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor.

I myself was somewhat disappointed with the lack of whip stuff, though the film was not shy of action. The fight scenes are particularly brutal, (very well done. Especially all the hand-to-hand stuff between Harrison and Igor. Think that Indy's Haymakers are brutal in the Flying Wing scene in Raiders? Check THIS out!)

The whip stuff that made it in I didn't particularly like, (the swing that we've all seen in the preview was pretty good, though not real. It's CGI for most of it, but the gun disarm was shot at an angle that just made it look awkward as heck!)

I almost would have been OK with the cutting of the whip stuff speaking from a filmmaking perspective, and not a whip cracking perspective. But then, us whip folks would have been happy if Indy used his whip to open bottles, turn on light switches, get books from the top shelf at the library, and other OVER THE TOP stuff that just would NOT serve the plot of the film, (seriously, if you want that, watch "Don Q, Son of Zorro." That is GREAT fun!)

I say I'd "ALMOST have been OK with it" because some of the whip action that was apparently cut would have served the story FAR more than the PRETENTIOUS, EXTENDED-TO-THE POINT-OF-INSANITY ANT NONSENSE!

And that's all I can really say about the whip stuff in Indy IV, because that's all there is.

-Dan

I liked the disarm a lot, just wish there would have been a lot more whip action. I was hoping since HF is older, we would get more whip and gun action in the movie, which are my faves anyway. But no. :(

There was more whip action in Zorro 2. The whip is what gave the character so much of his flavor and uniqueness to begin with.

I think especially in the Cemetery Scene they cut a lot of action scene and some Whip Fight.. In the Making of Book you can see a Picture of Mutt hanging from a Cliff... and in the Scene "Part time" u see Indy holding his Whip!!! When did he ever used it??? The only conclusion I can see is, that they cut it off

In Ford's defense, he DID knock over a table covered with empty milk jugs in one swipe on Good Morning America this week (a heckuva lot better than Diane Sawyer, who nearly hit him with her own whip swing a few minutes later).

**SPOILER ALERT** don't read this post if you haven't seen the film!!

I just came from seeing the film an hour ago. I've been offline awhile in the field, and have just switched on the computer to read these comments.

I liked the film, and thought the whipcracking just about right. It was a perfect balance for me. Too much whip and the general audience probably would think "heck, this is some kind of whip fest".

My favorite part was Indy and Marion getting, err you know what, at the end of the film. I'm a softy I suppose.

I think the big charm of the whip is that it is rarely seen, but when it is used.....look out. It has its own special occasions. Think about it. In the current film it saves Indy's life, and was offered as a lifeline that would have saved another. Pretty special tool in my opinion.

I liked the film and look forward to seeing it again. Just remember that Indy is 60 or so in this film. I'm grateful for another Indy adventure on the silver screen. I was thrilled and happy to see my old friend again.

Warning: spoiler in this post too.

Having thought about it a bit more in the cold light of day, yes I agree, one or two more whip shots would have improved the picture. Perhaps George and Steven will put those shots that fell on the editor's floor back in the movie in a later Director's cut DVD.

Indy should have whipped the blowpipe away (which makes more sense than blowing back into it). One more shot of something like the Cairo X crack -that Mr Ford does in the 'making of' documentary- when being attacked by the people at the temple would have been good also imo.

I didn't like the quartz skeletons much, or the giant saucer, but oh well I rarely like the final reel of James Bond or Indy films all that much. In my own mind I simply interpreted all that alien mumbo jumbo as just another form of spiritual malevolence, not necessarily representing evolved life on some other planet. That way it made sense to me.

Its no secret I was pretty disappointed with the film overall. Many people enjoyed it, and that’s fine. The lack of whip cracking was just one of many problems I had with it though, and it was a big one in my opinion. I know that I am not the only one that felt that way, Even the films whip trainer agreed.

Many of us where hoping to see something new and innovative with the whip in this movie, a well choreographed fight reminiscent of the Cairo marketplace scene in Raiders would have been nice. Harrison had the skill, the potential to do something really impressive was there but sadly the film makers decided to go in another direction when all was said and done.

You can still see more of Harrison Ford working the bullwhip on set in the behind the scenes video footage clips at

http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=co ... nk&id=1036

they shows more then what ended up in the final cut on the film.

Dan

A great disappointment.

My thought is wow...that's a really long whip! After using a 6' for a while now, it seems ponderous. Looks good though with that Delongis Roll!

I was disappointed with the whip, and the rest of it. I think that if they had made it more real world, more believable, it would have been ok- if not good. But all that alien stuff was way over the top. Though the first car chase was pretty good.

We've seen several pictures (the guy with the lightmeter shot setup picture) and video of him swinging at one of the cemetery warriors to save Mutt, but it was apparently cut from the film.

And if you think that's bad, he didn't even fire the Webley, and only drew it once.

The film was not dissapointing for me, but thats not the topic here. About the whipcracking my view is that due the age of our friend Harry maybe they couldnt afford that much action from him, therefore the use of the whip.

Just my 2 cents,

Regards,

LJ

I wish there was more whip use in the movie but other than that I thought the movie was absolutely fantastic!

Luisiana Jones wrote:The film was not dissapointing for me, but thats not the topic here. About the whipcracking my view is that due the age of our friend Harry maybe they couldnt afford that much action from him, therefore the use of the whip.

That's just it, if you look at the behind the scenes stuff, they SHOT it. It just ended up on the cutting room floor.

Now, as someone who's made those decisions, I can understand this. You cut what doesn't serve the story. Evidently, Steven or his editor didn't feel that the whip action lent itself to the pacing of the film.

The bits with the whip were quite dramatic. He disarms someone, he does a running crack and swing...All cool stuff, (and from some of that behind the scenes stuff, it's obvious that it WAS Harrison throwing the whip, and not a stunt guy or a CGI model.) Harrison was up to speed. Maybe the Cinematographer wasn't, (whip action is hard to photograph. Once again, trust me.) Maybe they didn't want to overdo it.

(With that in mind. Did we need 5 minutes of the ants? I timed it when I saw it the second time. 5 minute sequence. Cut some, if not all of that, add a bit more of the action with the Capoiera Skull guys at the Conquistador burial site. That scene seemed fairly full of holes.)

All in all though, I liked it. It was a good, fun, interesting action movie. Was it Raiders? No...But then...What comes close?

-Dan

Well last night was my third viewing and what I realized was that although he doesn't USE the whip a lot, he sure does HOLD the whip a lot! in MANY scenes, he has the coiled whip in his hand rather than on the belt.

Spoiler in this (only a mild one though). Don't read this please if you haven't seen the film! (you haven't seen it yet?!!)

Here are a couple of things I noticed about this film, both having to do with the whip, or rather the absence of it. Thinking about this, I realised the director probably chose to do both for film, or theatrical, reasons. Here they are:

1) Indy is back at his house. He is talking with the Dean, contemplating a new life after having been given the boot from his teaching job. He is packing his suitcase. He looks around for a moment, absentmindedly looking for something next to pack, then goes over to the wardrobe. We expect him to pull out his whip that traditionally is kept there. But no, he pulls out 2 leather belts, folds them up and packs them in the suitcase. How boring. That is not what we expect him to do. This is the very same thing I do when I go away on trips. It is a subtle joke from the director. If Steven Spielberg is going to make this sort of joke, there are probably other places in the movie where what we expect to see we are not going to get to see.

2) At the cemetery, Indy and Mutt are down below. Indy is out of shot. The guy with the blowgun suddenly appears and is pointing it straight at Mutt. A look of horror crosses Mutt's face as he realises he is about to be hit by a poison dart. There is a pause to build tension. We the audience know that Indy is probably going to do something - most likely we will suddenly hear a whipcrack and Indy will whip the blowgun away. But no, Indy jumps up and blows back into the pipe. Contrary to expectation.

I think in both cases the director deliberately chose to play with audience expectation. That makes good movies. I remember being pleasantly surprised, at the time, with the unexpected 'blow back' shot. I wasn't expecting it. In hindsight another scene with the whip being used would have been good but I think Steven Spielberg was more interested in making a good, tight, fresh picture. That is probably why we don't see too much whip action in this film. It is already a well established feature of the character, and to reiterate that 'calling card' too often would be, well, maybe inartistic.

That's the bare facts of film-making. Maybe. We whip crackers might appreciate it but new and impressive whip routines might have put the film at real risk of getting bogged down by trying to please fans too much. Still, having written all this, yes I agree that one more scene with the whip would have made the film even better.

I agree about the ants ) That scene was too long. Great film overall though imo.

I think the bit at his house was showing he doesn't get the whip out every time he leaves the house. He's not going on some grand adventure, he's going job hunting. So there is not need for his adventure gear, just my thoughts.

In watching the credits I saw TWO names under Whip Coach, Antony of course, and Doc....somebody. Who is the Doc somebody?

Yes, I see what you're saying, but it really struck me as boring...and non-Indyesqe, even if he was just going on a short road trip. Nearly everything in an actor's 'actions' should serve the story somehow. I couldn't understand why Spielberg showed us something boring, so thought it must have been a subtle joke. Maybe I notice too many fine details and need to eat more popcorn )

The second whip trainer was Doc Duhame. As I understand it he only came in for one day and that was at the request of stunt coordinator Gary Powell. He was more of professional stunt man then a true whip handler as he didnt have the the more advanced skill with the bullwhips that Anthony does.

Dan

Anthony and I thought you all might enjoy this...

One of the original proposed bullwhip stunts in the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull called for Indiana Jones to use his bullwhip to grab a Ugha warriors boliadora out of his hand as it was spinning in the air. Then Indy would sling shot the whip and the boliadora it around himself to hit another warrior.

Unfortunately for us the producers of the film decided to omit this scene all together but this is how it was set up to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9-1IKKz4z0

Enjoy.

That would have been completely awesome. Would have been an all new way to use the whip and everything. Blast the film makers of Indy 4!

Oh please be cut scenes on DVD release.....

The thing I've liked about Indy is he uses his whip as a tool, not an art. In this case he missed the boat on using his tool. It's not gratuitious if it makes sense. To a point if I as an audience member, knowing the capablities of the whip think, "hey I would have" then something IMO is missing.

Holy smokes! If you guys have not clicked on that link, DO IT!

Anthony doing great whip trick + dissin' on CGI + music by Hank Williams = possibly the greatest 1 minute YouTube video ever!!

MAN, it's frustrating to think of what was there for the taking and not capitalized on.

did anybody catch that it said it was TAUGHT to Harry?

everyones saying "oh.... harry is 65..."
SO WHAT?!?!?!

he could DO IT!
is that not ringing a bell?
regardless of age, he was in EXCELLANT shape for this movie and had the skill!

That would have definitely improved the picture. I take back what I wrote before. The film makers missed an opportunity there for something great and original.

That was cool