Disappointed with Todd's HJ Venice Pier Style

[JR]

I've just received my very first HJ from Todd's and I am sadly disappointed with the blocking. Before anyone says "I told you so" and starts posting links to other discussions about which HJ to get, I've already read those discussions. I decided to go with Todd's because I've read that when it comes to the LC style, Todd's is the way to go. So, when I got the hat last Friday, I've noticed the brim was almost flat. Only the back of the brim was slightly curved. I've contacted Todd's about this and I was quickly refunded the custom styling fee. Their response was that the hat probably relaxed during shipping and I could just roll the brim and hold it over some steam for a few seconds. But, if the hat relaxed during shipping then why is the back of the brim still curved while everywhere else is practically flat? Since I requested Venice Pier styling, shouldn't the side brims, at the least, be slightly curved?





When I wear the hat, the crown dwarfs my small face. I had to bash the top of the crown in more so the crown doesn't look too tall. I wanted the LC style HJ so that the side brims could offset the huge crown. Also, wearing the hat now makes it seem like I'm wearing a fisherman's hat with the sloppy brim. In fact, my Pacific Dorfman hat looks better on me now than the HJ.

Incidentally, the brim on the Dorfman hat was flat when I first got it. No amount of hand curling would get the thick brim to curl up. At least not after several days of trying, and even then the curl was minimal. But, 1 1/2 weeks ago there was a heavy rainstorm in NY where buckets of water was raining down. It was cool watching the rain roll off the brim of the hat. It was even more amazing that the hat kept me dry the entire 18 blocks home. So, now that the hat was soaked and pliable, I saw it as an opportunity to shape the hat in LC style. However, my only hat blocking tools were a 6 oz ceramic cup, a glass bottle of Tobasco sauce, and a 64 oz glass bottle of pomegranate juice. I used the cup to curve the side brims using the two glasses to hold the front and back brims. And, I hand curled the side brims. Surprisingly, the hat has retained this shape since with no hat stiffener with only a tiny relaxation of the side brims.





I tried this method with my HJ today by rubbing some water on the brims and then holding it in place with the cups. I only got a slight curl on the sides, since I could only spent 10 minutes doing this in the morning before I went to work.

[TonyRush]

It sounds like the advice from the thread you mentioned might have been spot on after all. That's not an "I told you so" at all (I think you've as much as said that yourself).

But it's another good reminder that there are some people here who've had learn things the hard way and it's not a bad idea to take their word for issues of quality.

Man, there's nothing more frustrating that buying something and it turning out to be below expectations. I hate that.

Tony

[Indiana G]

the hat is far from a "lost cause" my friend. yes todd orders his hats with less stiffener in them but there still is stiffener. if you are willing to chance it, lightly steam the brim and the stiffener will release allowing you to mold it. i've done this with 3 of todd's hats and it worked fine.

as for my experience, i iron the blim flat and allow the stiffener to hold it down like a pancake. then i lightly steam the brim so that the stiffener softens again which will allow you to curl it. for this procedure, you need to work fast and have a mirror right next to the kettle. be sure to keep the crown away from the steam....as much as possible.....STEAM ON CROWN IS BAD.....use distilled water if you want to play with the bash on the crown.....distilled water does not have any minerals which may stain the felt.

just my opinion....take it for what its worth

[McFly]

Also, I think if you push in that center dent a little bit, all the way from front to back, the crown would make a nicer shape and you'll probably like it more. And if you wanted, you could define the edges of the front bash, pinching it along where you think the lines should go. I think it's a fine hat, but just doesn't look like it got bashed at all. Nothing serious! Don't give up on it!

Shane

[Marcus Brody]

If that's the way it came, that a pretty fugly custom styling. What needs to be done is that the side dents need to go back a lot farther, because right now they're barely there. From the side shot, you can see a hump at the front, and that should be there. What has to happen the the front and back needs to be pushed down more as well.

In terms of the brim, I suggest ironing it flat with a towel or similar fabric protecting it. Immediately after, you should use steam and give it some curling by hand. Although, one problem is a LC style hat should be much more of a snap brim than one with a slightly rolled edge as on a Raiders hat, and that's very difficult to achieve by hand.

[Tron7960]

JR, pics of the HJ look good.

Would need to see it on you to comment on the face dwarfing fisherman look but my guess is it's not as bad as you think.
Going from the DP you will need to get used to the look of the HJ. It's going to seem BIG.

The bashing advice from McFly and Indiana G will produce a fine looking fed.

With enough time and tweaking, I think you will have your LC-VP.

[JR]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm definitely not giving up on the hat. As far as the stiffener, it's not an option right now since I have to order that and wait for it. I want to shape my hat now so I don't feel embarrassed going outside with it. I have a professional steam iron that comes attached to a heavy tank. So I'll try steaming it, but I have to gently press the steam lever otherwise steam will be blasting out of the bottom of the iron.

[Jonny Whip Crack]

JR, sorry to hear about you dissapoinment. I hate to say it, but I have a Todds Venice Pier LC HJ, and that bash looks nothing like it, including the side curl. Follow the advice given, work with it, and I'm sure you'll get the wanted results. It's the same hat...a little stema and attnetion to detail is all anyone uses. Here's the Todd LC venice I received from Todd.... hard to see detail, but a definate difference......
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=3 ... =532107535
If you're still not happy, make Todd aware and send it back for a reblock...he's well aware of how it should look. Never give up...never surrender!
Jonny

[Jonny Whip Crack]

Oh yeah...JR....if you need still shots of just the hat, let me know and I'll be glad to take a 360 degree shot of the Todd HJ hat and post.
Jonny

[BendingOak]

I'm sorry but if you not happy with it and thats all they offered you is to refund the style. I've give them another call and/or send it back. rather not trying to fix it yourself. What if the hat gets worse??? Then your out in the cold.

[bigrex]

yipes..oh.. the last two were a dorfman, phew, I was really miffed, the first two do look like the bashing is virtually non-existant.

[WinstonWolf359]

To be fair, one of the reasons I'm always suspect of getting a pre-creased hat shipped to me is that getting knocked around in a box is hard on whatever had previously been done. No matter what the hat looked like before it went into the box, heat and jostling are pretty much par for the course on anything going through the mail, and those are absolute murder on a creasing job.

I completely understand being disappointed in shelling out big money for something and it looking nothing like what you expected, but at the same time it's not like the hat is broken or unfixable. Just from looking at the pics it's pretty obvious to see exactly where the top dent popped out, which will only take pushing it back down to fix, and curling the sides back up really shouldn't be too tough either. There's not a lot of magic involved in bashing a hat, you just have to grab the hat in your hands and make it look like you want it to look.

[JR]

I'm sorry but if you not happy with it and thats all they offered you is to refund the style. I've give them another call and/or send it back. rather not trying to fix it yourself. What if the hat gets worse??? Then your out in the cold.

Todd's is on the west coast so it'll take 5 business days to ship the hat back to him and another 5 to get back to me. And, this is not counting however long it takes for them to fix my hat. This would be cutting it either too close to the movie premiere or miss it completely. Besides, I don't think a little hand curling and a little steam from a tank full of filtered water would damage the hat.

To be fair, one of the reasons I'm always suspect of getting a pre-creased hat shipped to me is that getting knocked around in a box is hard on whatever had previously been done.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. In addition to the HJ I've ordered from Todd's, I also ordered a hat rest. Which ironically is made by Dorfman (So, I'm resting my HJ on a Dorfman hat rest and I have another hat made by Dorfman). When I received my order, the HJ was placed on the hat rest that was resting inside the box tightly surrounded by wadded up paper. So, I doubt it was jostled too much. I think they simply forgot to block my hat.

[imagine671]

If you ask me, that hat looks fantastic, and a bit of steaming and hand-shaping will get it looking perfect in no time. And no - it won't ruin the hat, because it's the process most hat-makers use to bash a hat. I was a bit apprehensive about steaming my Magnoli HJ the day I received it, but its bash had largely disappeared in transit as well. Unfortunately, it seems my crown height was a little short, so I sent it back to have it worked on/replaced. However, your crown height looks great! I'd love to be in your position. Just turn on a kettle or buy one of those inexpensive water-heating pots (usually plastic with a metal ring around the bottom that heats up), keep the lid up and BAM, steam!

Don't be afraid...keep it over the steam for a while until the hat 'melts' in your hand a bit, and it becomes very easy to work with. Hold it away from the steam for a few seconds, and you'll start to feel it firm up immediately. When it's completely dry, it will hold any shape you give it. Even though Todd's uses less stiffener, I've done the same with WOOL hats, and had good results. So, you'll be fine. I would NOT, however, recommend doing/using anything else to change it's shape. All that talk of tabasco bottles, etc was scaring me. You shouldn't need to use anything but your hands. If your problem is with block-shape, then there's nothing you can do about that save for send it back, but I see nothing wrong with the block-shape. You just want it styled like the Pier scene, which shouldn't involve even touching the block. Throw that bad-boy over some steam and see what you can do! Reference the film over and over, of course! =) We're all anxious to see what you can do to tweak an already fantastic-looking hat!

[Captain Ron Solo]

Echoing what Tron7960 said, it can be a shock when you see a new shape on the top of your head when you have gotten used to seeing a particular hat. However, you are likely the only person who would spot the difference. So, once you get the HJ shaped, definitely don't let the size of the crown bother you. After wearing the DP for a long time, you are finally getting the proper proportions. Congrats on the hat.

Ron

[moses]

That soft brim would be excellent for Raiders. Just look how relaxed the brim break is! Try putting on and giving it the turn - I'll bet that brim really comes to life.
As for shaping a soft hat, you just mustn't be afraid to be a bit rough - really squeeze the creases till they stay. After a day or two the bash will hold.

[BendingOak]

JR, I would be very carefull with any steam or water on thet hat. It will taper. The HJ from magnoli are put together by Steve Delk (long story short) are blocked and put together much better than the Todd HJ.

[rebelgtp]

JR, I would be very carefull with any steam or water on thet hat. It will taper. The HJ from magnoli are put together by Steve Delk (long story short) are blocked and put together much better than the Todd HJ.

Yeah I have to second this be extremely careful with the steaming it is very possible to ruin a good hat with to much steam. Just remember these hats are not indestructible, especially an HJ. So be careful with it. I can see why you aren't happy with the hat I wouldn't be either, it has no shape what so ever. If it was me I would send it back, but its your call.

In fact I can remember when I first got my federation I asked Fedora about shaping it and he said just use your hands don't use steam. I followed his instructions and I was very happy with the results.

[Fedora]

I think Todd gets his with little stiffener. Now, soft hats are so comfortable to wear, but don't expect the style job to endure the shipping. Even on my own hats, which are much stiffer than the unstiffened HJs, I see the creases relax in pics that folks take of the hats. If the box is dropped(and it is, many times in transit) the creases will try to pop out. The brims will lose some curl, but less so. To me, it looks like Todd's HJ just lost some of the style he put into it, in transit. The only way to bypass this is to buy stiff hats. They seem to always arrive looking just like they did when shipped. But real stiff hats are not comfortable unless a comforatuer and formillion is used to copy the exact head shape. So there is a trade off. The best thing to do is to learn how to crease hats. And how to put curl back into a brim. Indy G's comments above should be heeded. And anyone else who chimed in.

If the floppy brim of Todd's hat does not want to hold the side curl, buy some Scout stiffener, apply to the under side of the brim, and use the sizing with steam to make the brim hold the curl you want.

Back when all men wore hats, most of those men were used to creasing and tweaking their hats. It was part of hat wearing, that we have forgotten about. So, if you can't crease a hat, it is time to spend some time learning to do so. Hatters don't reside on each corner these days. So, you can't take your hat in to have it creased by a pro. Fedora

[DanielJones]

Steve's right. There is a lot of good advice here for the learning. I've bashed all of my hats, vintage & new, & haven't had a single problem. Men back in the day knew what they wanted in the shape of a hat, & most hat resellers offered shaping services but it was the customer who shaped his own hat to his liking. Read through the information again and then if you feel comfortable with shaping your brim just dive in. As long as you're not totally smashing it, it should take what you dish out.
As they say in The Water Boy, "You can do it!!"

Cheers!

Dan

[starks_6]

Look on the bright side, you still have a HJ! and as Steve said add some stiffiner and with re-bashing you'll have a nice hat

[Puppetboy]

JR,


Wow! I don't know what happened to that hat in transit, but it doesn't look anything like it should. I wonder if the box was shipped inside a sauna.

If you don't mind sending it back, I'll replace it with a fresh hat. That one will make a good "Cairo" hat. There's no way to get that one to look "Venice Pier" now.

I may file a claim with UPS for the damage. It's obviously been exposed to extreme heat and humidity - very bad for a hat.

[mtechthang]

[ ] To me, it looks like Todd's HJ just lost some of the style he put into it, in transit. The only way to bypass this is to buy stiff hats.

That seems correct from my perspective (as a reformed Outback/Cowboy wearer!). The problem is that such a stiff hat would never provide the warmth and comfort of the fit in a fedora. Thus leading to-

The best thing to do is to learn how to crease hats. And how to put curl back into a brim. Indy G's comments above should be heeded. And anyone else who chimed in.

Steve said more about this but I wanted to add one thing from the other side of the fence, as it were. The processes Steve described are very important to learn. But they are also difficult and somewhat frustrating at first (sometimes later too!). I'm a wood-worker and reasonable new to hats. I knew that my first few attempts at bashing/firming/etc would be disasters (yep!!). But I got better and the felt is forgiving!! I wouldn't hesitate to spend some time with this hat and kind of let it any your hands find your style and skills. BUT, and this is a big one, I think your goals for this hat are authenticity or at least include that. I'd take the vendor up on his offer and return it for a different hat. My intuition, for what it is worth, tells me you'll not be happy with this hat in the long run.

[JR]

Sorry for the late reply. I didn't see this until late night yesterday, but couldn't respond until today. It's funny how those topic reply notifications work. Sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't.

Thanks for the offer Puppetboy, but JPdesign was kind enough to let me know that there were two nearby hatters in NYC that I could go to and block my hat in time for the movie premiere. So, I left it at the hatters last Saturday and I just picked it up today. I was going to shape it myself from pictures supplied by Jonny Whip Crack, but then JPdesign pm'd me the names of the hatters. So, I decided to have them do it. Btw, thanks Jonny. Those pictures (I had them printed out on a color laser printer), along with pictures of the Venice Pier scene from Raiders.net and 1 other website, allowed the hatter to block my HJ accurately (I think). I'll post pics of the newly blocked hat tomorrow (early morning) when I get home.

The first hatter that I stopped by on Saturday was the J&J Hat Center. When I asked one of the staff to re-block the hat according to the pictures, he didn't even look at the pictures. He only glanced at the picture that was on the first page. Then, he proceeded to a hat pedestal attached to a steam machine operated by a foot pedestal. He bashed the crease too deep making the inside walls of the crown too deep. Also, he didn't even attempt to curve the sides of the hat. I did have him make two more adjustments to the hat and showed him one of the other pictures. He barely glanced at that picture. I still got the feeling that he didn't want to block my hat unless I bought one of the store's hats. He had showed me the nicer version of the Dorfman hat that they sell for $125. The brim still had that undulated curve and he said that nothing could be done about this since I have an oval-shaped head. This entire process was less than 10 minutes. At the end, he said that there was no charge when I asked him about the cost for the blocking. But, I insisted on leaving a tip - I left a $20 tip. *cough* This place should be avoided if you actually need your hat blocked. But, if you need a droopy brim or sides restored in a jiff, then this is the place for you.

So, unhappy with the block I went to the other place, Worth & Worth. I met with one of the owners, Orlando Palacio. He was wearing a white cowboy hat with highly-curved sides. Here's a picture of him and the left-side of the showroom facing the street in a New York Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/busin ... suits.html

They had shelves lined with Worth & Worth hats and even brown fedoras, which I concentrated on. I looked at the inside of one of the hats and there was a label that said "Exclusively made for Worth & Worth." There were also some suitcases, men's and ladies shirts, scarves, and ties displayed. He made the crown smaller and even fixed the issue with the brim. When I first received the HJ the brim really looked like a fisherman's hat brim on my head. After a minor block I did, it looked somewhat decent but the brim still looked slight wavy. So, it looks like I've found my hatter.

Of course, I'll take all your advice to heart and learn to do my own hat blocking. I was pretty satisfied with my very first hat block on the Dorfman hat (Even though I was aiming for the LC style and ended up with the Cairo style). The Dorfman hat may look ugly by itself, but it looks pretty good on my head since it was made exactly for my head shape and face. Though, I nearly had a heart attack when I first saw that thing, and the hat grew on me after I wore it for a month. It didn't look anything like the Ebay picture, which was probably a picture of the nicer Dorman hat. With the HJ, the hat is about 1/8 inch bigger, so I have to rest the back of my hat near the nape.

05/05/08 Edit:
Sorry for the delay in posting the pics. It turns out my camera's USB cable was left at work. Here are the pics.

Blocked Left Side
Blocked Right Side
Blocked Front/Top