Club Obi Wan

I've been mulling over the fact that Indy wears a dark hat while Belloq wears a white hat. I'm trying to think if there's any significance to that. I mean, was Spielberg trying to say something with that? Or was it just the fact that the brown hat looked better with the brown jacket? Storytellers sometimes like to weave subplots or hidden messages into their stories for those readers who like to dig a little deeper. So what can the hidden meaning be here? About the best I can come up with is that even the good guys have a dark side and even the bad guys are not without their redeeming qualities...sometimes at least! Anybody else ever given that any thought?

Curious,
Dean

Interesting idea. Personally, I don't think he's making a statement about color so much as values - Indy chooses a beloved old beater, whereas Belloq probably bought the most stylish panama on Saville Row which would be used during the Tannis dig and disposed of afterwards. It suggests that Belloq puts little sentimental value in his possessions whereas Indy sticks with his, even when they're beat up and dirty. :junior: -M

i wrote an essay on that last year actually at my first year at filmschool.
yes, usually the hero is the one in the white, clean hat but not this time. Now the hero is the dark and dirty one who gets in alot of trouble while the villain, Now in white, is clean and doesnt do much to get what he wants. This may be because steven wanted the audience give the hero more sympathy. and at the end when the hero finally gets what he wants after lot of struggle, he really deserves the prize.



CJ

I don't really think that Belloq was a traditional villain, IMO. Actually, if circumstances were different, he would actually be the hero of the piece! I mean, sure he stole Indy's idol, but Indy in turn stole the idol from the temple! To me, Belloq seems more like a lampoon of the traditional hero mold, much like Captain Brannigan from Futurama. He doesn't want to get his nice clothes dirty, so he lets a scoundrel like Indy do all the dirty work.

Certainly he joined up with the Nazis, but that couldn't really be held against him, since to him, the ends justified the means, and would be no different than Indy trading with Lao Che's triad, just on a grander scale. And it's not like he really believed their ideology anyway, unlike Donovan (presumably)in the Last Crusade.

And to his credit, he did try to help Marion when she was captured. He did try to persuade the Nazis she had nothing to do with it, and even treated her fairly kindly. IMO, the scene where Toht shows up in Belloq's tent makes it look almost as if Belloq would be ready to save the girl, but he's not a moron, and knows when he's outnumbered.

Sure, he may have been slower than Indy when it came to archaeology (read: the ark), but that was no different than Indy's enthusiasm when he has the grail in his fingertips. Like Norman said, "everybody goes a little crazy sometimes... haven't you?"

But in all honesty, I think the fedora colors were just an aesthetic choice

Belloq is the worst kind of villain. He's a pure opportunist that does not care one way or the other who he works with, who he hurts, or by what methods. To him the end definitely justifies the means. Collaborate with Nazis, no problem; exploit indigenous cultures, sure thing; sell out your fellow man, in a heartbeat.

His hat colour is incidental to the story. Being a fastidious prim is just part of his demeaning and arrogant character.

Belloq is the worst kind of villain. He's a pure opportunist that does not care one way or the other who he works with, who he hurts, or by what methods. To him the end definitely justifies the means. Collaborate with Nazis, no problem; exploit indigenous cultures, sure thing; sell out your fellow man, in a heartbeat.

I like your view of it Hunter - Belloq is basically a sociopath. He has no scruples, doesn't care who gets hurt and doesn't care about history. He's Indy with more glamour and far fewer scruples.

I mean, sure he stole Indy's idol, but Indy in turn stole the idol from the temple!

Indy was collecting pieces from the temple which were supposed to end up in a museum, Belloq was stealing them for the purpose of selling them on the black market in order to fill his wallet. How can you compare the two?

And to his credit, he did try to help Marion when she was captured. He did try to persuade the Nazis she had nothing to do with it, and even treated her fairly kindly.

I think that's called "seduction." He's not being a gentleman, he's trying to get her into the sack. :junior: -M

Good guys wear BROWN.

Indy could also be regarded as some sort of anti hero in this respect, he was never a clean cut "hero" so to speak...he drinks, swears, has casual relationships with women and arguably breaks there hearts..."I was a child, I was in love, it was wrong and you knew it"

btw not slating indy in any way just offering an interpretation

Cheers

Mulceber wrote:

I mean, sure he stole Indy's idol, but Indy in turn stole the idol from the temple!

Indy was collecting pieces from the temple which were supposed to end up in a museum, Belloq was stealing them for the purpose of selling them on the black market in order to fill his wallet. How can you compare the two?

You mean Belloq was stealing historical relics just to sell them? Just like Indy was selling the Peacock's Eye for Nurhachi's remains, which he later planned on probably selling anyway? Unthinkable!

Mulceber wrote:

And to his credit, he did try to help Marion when she was captured. He did try to persuade the Nazis she had nothing to do with it, and even treated her fairly kindly.

I think that's called "seduction." He's not being a gentleman, he's trying to get her into the sack. :junior: -M

Sure, I think that's part of it, but I also think he really was really trying to help her. Maybe he wouldn't have given his life for her like Indy would, but then again, he didn't know her like Indy did. I suppose that's just the way I read his scenes with Marion.

Thank you for the idol, Dr. Jones...

Chiliana Jones wrote:i wrote an essay on that last year actually at my first year at filmschool.CJ

I'd like to read that essay, if you don't mind and it's in English. Typical American...I can only speak American!

Dean

Alan,
Thanks is a great looking suit.
Really, really nice.

C

Just like Indy was selling the Peacock's Eye for Nurhachi's remains, which he later planned on probably selling anyway?

First off, he was selling the remains for the diamond, not the other way around. Second of all, that was almost certainly going to a museum. Think about it. Lao has the eye, you have the ashes. What's more valuable to history? A Diamond which belonged to the greatest General who ever lived or the cremations of an obscure Chinese Emperor? The value of the ashes can't be underplayed, but the diamond tops them out, easy.

Sure, I think that's part of it, but I also think he really was really trying to help her. Maybe he wouldn't have given his life for her like Indy would, but then again, he didn't know her like Indy did. I suppose that's just the way I read his scenes with Marion.

Really? Than while he was insisting the girl knew nothing, why didn't he try to persuade them to let her go? Oh and don't forget that line "If she fails to please me, you may do with her as you wish." Doesn't sound very caring to me. :junior: -M

Even at his worst, Indy's got morals. Beloq didn't. Beloq wanted Marion, but I doubt he really cared about her.

I never really thought about the hat thing. Indy wore the hat he wore because it was rugged and rustic, and he wasn't trying to draw attention.

Beloq was high class. He wore a white hat because he was flashy and stylish. He was a cool bad guy. He wasn't nearly as rugged as Indy. He was more sophisticated.

If I remember my cowboy shows correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, the good guy did not always were a white hat. While well noted cowboy heros such as Roy Rogers and Gene Autry often did wear white hats, Hop-a-long Cassidy wore a black hat but he was a good guy. So the color of the hat doesn't always mean good/bad.

why didn't he try to persuade them to let her go?

There Nazi's...with guns...and a submarine full of troops...seems like a descent enough explanation

"If she fails to please me, you may do with her as you wish." Doesn't sound very caring to me. -M

yeah but was belloq not really trying to help marion out of a sticky situation there...in all fairness he was alone with her in that tent for the better part of a day...if he wanted his wicked way with her he could have no better time than that over a bottle of belloq's "family label"

plus the look in Belloq's face when marion gets thrown into that big ole hole full of snakes is one of shock, he wanted to save her but didnt have the Cohones imo

The Avaitor wrote:

why didn't he try to persuade them to let her go?

There Nazi's...with guns...and a submarine full of troops...seems like a descent enough explanation

"If she fails to please me, you may do with her as you wish." Doesn't sound very caring to me. -M

yeah but was belloq not really trying to help marion out of a sticky situation there...in all fairness he was alone with her in that tent for the better part of a day...if he wanted his wicked way with her he could have no better time than that over a bottle of belloq's "family label"

plus the look in Belloq's face when marion gets thrown into that big ole hole full of snakes is one of shock, he wanted to save her but didnt have the Cohones imo

This is why I love Beloq. He's such a complex villain. You can almost understand him, and what he says to Indy in the bar is almost believable.

There Nazi's...with guns...and a submarine full of troops...seems like a descent enough explanation

It would be...if he was thinking about DEMANDING they let her go.

"look guys, it's pretty clear she doesn't know anything, why not just send her back to Cairo and let her shack up at my place until we're done with this 'ark-thing' and then I'll buy her a ticket back to the US." If he were to say that, the Nazi's would probably still say no, but there's no way they'd shoot him for suggesting it.

plus the look in Belloq's face when marion gets thrown into that big ole hole full of snakes is one of shock, he wanted to save her but didnt have the Cohones imo

I will give you that. He definitely didn't look happy that she was going to die. I was probably wrong calling him a sociopath - he's much more of a true-to-life villain. He does care about some things, but he doesn't have the guts to try to protect them - and he generally is willing to kill those who stand between him and profit - as long as it doesn't dirty his hands. Basically, he's a corporate CEO. :junior: -M

Alan wrote:Thank you for the idol, Dr. Jones...

Now that's a photo I could look at way more than just once!!! Very nice, the hat is fantastic...

Belloq is like the loner you knew at school. Generally popular, but not connected with any particular group. Occasionally, you'd hang out and confide in them. Then the next day you'd hear your secrets broadcast to the entire school. For some reason, you'd underestimate their traitorous tendency many times before finally learning your lesson. Then years later, you find out they went on to become a taxman ... or something like that.

gabrielle wrote:Now that's a photo I could look at way more than just once!!! Very nice, the hat is fantastic...

Thanks! The hat is an Art Fawcett custom. It's actually 'mojave' rather than white, but it was meant to be a felt version of a Panama hat.

I think the brown colour is on the one hand much more adequate :arrow: white hat in the jungle on the other hand and as a deeper interpretation, white is no colour, it is just clean and donnish. Indys character was always in my opinion a very issue-related and he was a man, who wears and uses things, that are at any rate usefull. The brown colour implicates for me also something local and stands for a settled in person. The colour brown is at last more down-to-earth than the non-colour white. So white fits better into the structure of a "Belloq brain". Just some thoughts

The more I think of it, good guys seldom wear white hats.

Aeris_Canon wrote:Nowadays, they seem to utilize PMs for those deeds - only with a slight twist to the facts in doing so along the way.

Ah yes, the secret world of the PMs ... any Belloq worth his salt would make good use of those!

Zorro was the original movie hero. When Walt Disney decided to produce the classic TV show starring Guy Williams, he worried over the fact that Zorro not only wore a black hat and costume but rode a black horse-- two big no-nos for a good guy back in 1957. Additionally, he had the villain, Capitan Monastario, riding a white horse.

According to Britt Lomond, who played Monastario, when Disney saw the first dailies, he yelled out "What stupid ### puts the HEAVY on a WHITE horse? What the #### have I done?"

Jack

Satipo wrote:Belloq is like the loner you knew at school. Generally popular, but not connected with any particular group. Occasionally, you'd hang out and confide in them. Then the next day you'd hear your secrets broadcast to the entire school. For some reason, you'd underestimate their traitorous tendency many times before finally learning your lesson. Then years later, you find out they went on to become a taxman ... or something like that.

I agree, except with Belloq, you'd more likely find out he went on to be arrested as a con artist. :junior: -M

Yul Brynner in "The Magnificent Seven" was another hero in a black hat; I guess the "good guy in the white hat" concept was more of a guideline than a rule.

Jack

Satipo wrote:Belloq is like the loner you knew at school. Generally popular, but not connected with any particular group. Occasionally, you'd hang out and confide in them. Then the next day you'd hear your secrets broadcast to the entire school. For some reason, you'd underestimate their traitorous tendency many times before finally learning your lesson. Then years later, you find out they went on to become a taxman ... or something like that.

All the comments about Belloq are true of course, but 1 very important thing...without the Belloqs we wouldn't need the Indys and without Indy, NO HAT!!!!

gabrielle wrote:

Satipo wrote:Belloq is like the loner you knew at school. Generally popular, but not connected with any particular group. Occasionally, you'd hang out and confide in them. Then the next day you'd hear your secrets broadcast to the entire school. For some reason, you'd underestimate their traitorous tendency many times before finally learning your lesson. Then years later, you find out they went on to become a taxman ... or something like that.

All the comments about Belloq are true of course, but 1 very important thing...without the Belloqs we wouldn't need the Indys and without Indy, NO HAT!!!!

And with NO HAT, NO MOVIE; a movie hero needs his hat-- black, brown or green.

Jack

Basically, he's a corporate CEO

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Basically, he's a corporate CEO