Club Obi Wan

hiya fellas,

Been doing my search for my next jacket. Among my findings was the notion that if Indiana Jones were a real character he would be wearing Horsehide because of its durability (being dragged behind a truck isn't for the faint hided) But doesn't only get dragged, he gets wet too in all the movies and I hear goat is the most water resistant of all the hides, and the desert heat can't help if he's wearing horsehide since it insulates heat better. Plus taken from wikipedia

"Some original A-2's were made from goatskin (as was the Navy G-1 jacket), and others possibly from cowhide (which can be very difficult to tell from horse if tanned identically). Generally goatskin was held in reserve for when horsehide stocks ran low, (reference?) but all Spiewak- and Doniger-made jackets are of goat, as are many Cable, Dubow, Bronco, Perry, and Rough Wear examples."

Horsehide is tough but I think Indy would anticipate that being dragged isn't the only drag.
So Indy being a jack of all trades needing to be ready in any situation, wouldn't he wear an all around durable, tough, comfortable, and resistant jacket?

tell me what you guys think about this.

Cheers

I've always been of the same thought, and I base many of my gear choices on practical matters like this...I'm sure this will spark endless debate, but here's my take.

Indy wears a jacket for protection, and what better hide than Goat to add a little extra 'Armor'?

That's the kind of gearhead I am. I'm buying another Goatskin jacket next week. I'm grabbing a Fed Deluxe because of their toughness. I make and use hardcore nylon whips because they work so well and are very nearly carefree. And it goes on, ad nauseum.

Guess I'm just in that camp. Indygear is meant to be used, not just shown off once or twice a year.

In terms of practicality and the hides we fans can choose from, I agree that Goat is idea. It's tough, fairly good with getting wet, and not too heavy of a hide, making it better for more climates.

However, I believe that in terms of period accuracy, horse would be the most likely hide. As I understand it, pilot/bomber jackets of the time were made of horse hide at first. This would suggest that the odds would favor Indy wearing horsehide.

Yes, Indy would most likely have worn either goat or horse.

But from a film-making perspective it's better to stick with lamb since it's easier for them to age. :junior: -M

Indy would've had his jacket for years and the A-2 didn't become standard issue till May of 1931 which they first used SealSkin and then started using horsehide. So whether he would have a horsehide jacket would still be questionable, of course I could be misinformed.

IndianaSolo wrote:Indy would've had his jacket for years and the A-2 didn't become standard issue till May of 1931 which they first used SealSkin and then started using horsehide. So whether he would have a horsehide jacket would still be questionable, of course I could be misinformed.

You may right about that. However, since Indy had a gas mask bag that hadn't been created yet, I think the same logic could be applied here. herefore, his most likely choice in a jacket would have been horsehide or sealskin. Although, if I were going to go through the trouble of shattering the laws of space-time to get a durable jacket, I think I'd go with horsehide. I couldn't wear seal. Just one step too far for me.

A-2's were never made from seal skin. The original specification was for "Seal brown" horsehide. That's were you get the "seal" from. Somebody got their wires crossed on that one. Cheers

Years before WWII, the U.S. Air Corp was issued the 'Type A2 Bomber Jacket', Standard Issue on May 9, 1931. The U.S. Navy followed later with the 'Type the M-445 Flight Jacket' for Pilots of the Navy and Marine Corps ( later to be called the G1 during the war ). The issues were made of Seal Skin Leather and a functional cotton lining. However, as the Air Corp gained popularity and enlisted ranks swelled, the sealskin was deemed unpractical to fill such large orders. The then Department of War went to making the Type A2 Bomber Jacket out of Horsehide, which at that time was plentiful in the United States Leather Tanning Markets. Today, the A2 and G1 are made to Department of Defense Standards for Military Issue using only Goatskin and Cowhide Leather.

http://www.americanmystique.com/history ... ackets.htm

AND

In 1931, the US Air Corp was issued the 'Type A2 Bomber Jacket'. Pilots in the Navy and Marine Corp were issued the 'Type M-445 Flight Jacket' in later years; this jacket was later to be known as the G1. These bomber jackets were made of seal skin leather with a functional cotton lining. In the years to follow, enlistment in the US Air Corp swelled in numbers due to it's popularity. Because of the large numbers, seal skin was no longer practical to use in the making of the jackets. Since Horsehide was plentiful in the United States leather tanning markets, the Department of War went to making the Type A2 Bomber Jacket out of the material. However, the need for a warmer flight jacket came about in World War II when the planes became more advanced and were able to fly at much higher altitudes

http://www.leather-bombers.com/history- ... ackets.htm


Because there were very few jackets manufactured with Seal, it is mostly assumed that Horses were used from the very start. While Horsehide was the pick, it was mostly reserved for miliary personel, and since Indy's jacket would predate the inception of the jacket being Standard Issue, the animal used is in question for me since a good fraction of the jackets were also made using goat, which means to the public goat would be the most readily available, I assume.

The info on those sites is erroneous. The original contract called for horsehide leather and a lining made from silk. What was not practical when the war started was the use of silk (not seal skin leather). They then went to cotton. As the war progressed General “Hap” Arnold decided that the variation in shade of the A-2 was not very professional. He standardized the color to a “dark seal”. Cheers


There's a book with original military contracts in it. I'll try to site it tomorrow.

Geez, I get so guilty in this hobby. Horsehide. Lambskin. Goatskin. Cowhide. Roo hide. Beaver fur. Rabbit fur. So many slaughtered animals. Oh well.

Anyways, I guess the next jacket I get is gonna have to be goatskin or something. I love my lambskin, but it'd be great to have one I could beat up more.

Argonaut wrote:Geez, I get so guilty in this hobby. Horsehide. Lambskin. Goatskin. Cowhide. Roo hide. Beaver fur. Rabbit fur. So many slaughtered animals. Oh well.

This made me smile. I remember eight years ago thinking of buying a horsehide jacket and feeling really guilty. I guess horses have more 'nobility' or something as opposed to a cow. Anyway, when I found out they only used horses who had already died I made the purchase. I mean I eat meat but I guess we 'personify' some animals more than others. It's all great hypocrisy but I'm very appreciative of the clothes and shoes etc. so that must count for something...

Alex

morganswift wrote:

Argonaut wrote:Geez, I get so guilty in this hobby. Horsehide. Lambskin. Goatskin. Cowhide. Roo hide. Beaver fur. Rabbit fur. So many slaughtered animals. Oh well.

This made me smile. I remember eight years ago thinking of buying a horsehide jacket and feeling really guilty. I guess horses have more 'nobility' or something as opposed to a cow. Anyway, when I found out they only used horses who had already died I made the purchase. I mean I eat meat but I guess we 'personify' some animals more than others. It's all great hypocrisy but I'm very appreciative of the clothes and shoes etc. so that must count for something...

Alex

I dunno dude, cows are pretty cool I mean, for those of you who have seen it nothing ever topped the Gary Larson comic of the cows with the car driving past!

morganswift wrote:

Argonaut wrote:Geez, I get so guilty in this hobby. Horsehide. Lambskin. Goatskin. Cowhide. Roo hide. Beaver fur. Rabbit fur. So many slaughtered animals. Oh well.

This made me smile. I remember eight years ago thinking of buying a horsehide jacket and feeling really guilty. I guess horses have more 'nobility' or something as opposed to a cow. Anyway, when I found out they only used horses who had already died I made the purchase. I mean I eat meat but I guess we 'personify' some animals more than others. It's all great hypocrisy but I'm very appreciative of the clothes and shoes etc. so that must count for something...

Alex

Haha. You'll notice I included cowhide in my list. I feel pretty much just as guilty about cows too. I'm a tree-huggin animal freak most of the time, so being a gear head kind of goes against who I am.

Normally I stick to cotton clothes and stuff like that.

I dunno dude, cows are pretty cool I mean, for those of you who have seen it nothing ever topped the Gary Larson comic of the cows with the car driving past!

Ha, indeed I have. There's quite a few cows around where I live.

I would suspect horsehide would be the most likely choice from the standpoint of it being the toughest jacket material but goat or a tough cowhide would also be likely choices of the period.

From a climate perspective, I don't really think any of these materials make much of a difference as they all provide about the same level of warmth. Indy seems to remove the leather jacket when he gets hot unless he is anticipating taking on a truckload of Nazis and needs the protection.

I'm no expert on the water issue but from what I gather any quality leather of the period would handle getting wet. I know the Navy used goat on the G1 so maybe they know something I don't.

Since we are talking about a fictional character I guess it's up to interpretation. I know I prefer the feel of goat to horse hide so maybe Indy would too. Or maybe he liked lamb and didn't give a flip about replacing his jacket quite often... I think that's the way I'm leaning. I'll say he started out wearing lamb but as he got older and wiser (or maybe his tailor got wiser after dealing with all the repairs) he switched to the cheaper more durable cowhide.

www.acmedepot.com will provide all you need to know about A-2s.

I could add to Wikipedia, so I am always leery about info obtained through that source.

My vote would be horse, as I don't think the jacket would have been originally designed for wet weather such as was the case with the Navy M422s and G1s.

This is a question no one can claim to have the definitive answer on, but it's fun to speculate!

Tron

i like to think that indy had only one jacket and did not get a new one when needed...

for the purposes of filming ie: hot sets and climates, ease of distressing photogenics etc. lamb probably made the best choice.

but the lamb is more of a "modern" leather... if i may be so bold.

i don't see indy picking up a lamb jacket during that time frame and saying "oh this will impress marion at club obi wan tonight". )

i see him picking something that he thinks is going to hold up under everything he anticipates going thru.

so...IMO most likely the jacket would be a tougher hide...

of course the great thing about his adventures is that everything he goes thru, he does not anticipate at all!

OK, let's get really controversial - if Indy were a real person he probably wouldn't have a leather jacket at all! ...ducks for cover...
He's an archaeologist so he's mainly working in hot dusty conditions and the last thing he wants is a hot sticky jacket. He'd probably be dressed more like Belloq in a linen suit or cotton...

BUT...by the time of Raiders he must realise he's a chaos magnet so he's kitted out for being duffed up and dragged around a lot. My bet is he'd be wearing horsehide. Out of the jackets I own the HH one is the only one I'd be dragged behind a truck in (if I had to be)...

Alex

I've gotta disagree with you guys. The most important jacket requirements for Indy would have been drape and dramatic flapping about during fights. Therefore, it would have to be lambskin.

Because there were very few jackets manufactured with Seal, it is mostly assumed that Horses were used from the very start. While Horsehide was the pick, it was mostly reserved for miliary personel, and since Indy's jacket would predate the inception of the jacket being Standard Issue, the animal used is in question for me since a good fraction of the jackets were also made using goat, which means to the public goat would be the most readily available, I assume.

Horse was the standard as cow is today's standard. The horsehide was not reserved for the military as before the war there was much demand for A-2 jackets anyway. Let's also not forget that before the A-2 jacket was the A-1 jacket which was also horsehide.

Also I guess there were enough horses in the US rather than goats or lambs.

Satipo made a liar out of me. There IS a definitive answer!

Tron

As the war progressed General “Hap” Arnold decided that the variation in shade of the A-2 was not very professional. He standardized the color to a “dark seal”. Cheers

The spec was for seal brown from the start. It's just that some suppliers failed to get it right (too dark) in the early contracts.

I've gotta disagree with you guys. The most important jacket requirements for Indy would have been drape and dramatic flapping about during fights. Therefore, it would have to be lambskin.

I gotta agree with Satipo 100%. I will also post this on another relevant thread.

Also, I think that the reason the jacket was lamb we all owe to Peter. I guess lamb was in fashion in the UK those days and Peter made it likewise. (If you go to the UK they will offer you tea instead of coffee that they will offer you in the US).

I would bet that if a US maker had done it, he would have done it in another leather e.g. cowhide or horsehide (because in his mind those kinds of leather would be good for an 'adventure jacket')

Not the same case for an Englishman though.

PLATON wrote:

As the war progressed General “Hap” Arnold decided that the variation in shade of the A-2 was not very professional. He standardized the color to a “dark seal”. Cheers

The spec was for seal brown from the start. It's just that some suppliers failed to get it right (too dark) in the early contracts.

Regardless of what the spec was, my point was that early A-2's came out a variety of shades. Most were not dark (as you say), but the opposite. Most of the russet jackets came from early or prewar. At a certain point, Arnold had all A-2's spray dyed a very dark seal, to standardize the color.

How about roo hide?

morganswift wrote:OK, let's get really controversial - if Indy were a real person he probably wouldn't have a leather jacket at all! ...ducks for cover...
He's an archaeologist so he's mainly working in hot dusty conditions and the last thing he wants is a hot sticky jacket. He'd probably be dressed more like Belloq in a linen suit or cotton...

Oh, c'mon, on if you want to be REALLY controversial you should point out that he's not really an archaeologist, he's an artifact thief.

mufflowne wrote:How about roo hide?

US. Wings used to carry that but they don't anymore. I'll be it had really big pockets.

RockBottom wrote:Oh, c'mon, on if you want to be REALLY controversial you should point out that he's not really an archaeologist, he's an artifact thief.

Good point I guess watching Indy dusting off bits of pottery and shovelling stuff for 2 hours wouldn't be much fun...

Alex

morganswift wrote:

RockBottom wrote:Oh, c'mon, on if you want to be REALLY controversial you should point out that he's not really an archaeologist, he's an artifact thief.

Good point I guess watching Indy dusting off bits of pottery and shovelling stuff for 2 hours wouldn't be much fun...

Alex

Technically I guess few American archaeologists were artifact thieves. Mostly because by the time we showed up, the Brits, French, and Germans had stolen about everything that could be moved! And having spent Saturday before last with the Assyrian stuff in the British Museum, I'd have to add that they stole a lot of stuff that couldn't be moved.

RockBottom wrote:Technically I guess few American archaeologists were artifact thieves. Mostly because by the time we showed up, the Brits, French, and Germans had stolen about everything that could be moved! And having spent Saturday before last with the Assyrian stuff in the British Museum, I'd have to add that they stole a lot of stuff that couldn't be moved.

Now I really am not an archaeologist (can barely spell it!) so I ain't gonna comment on what should and shouldn't be in the British Museum. All I know is they do have a LOT of rubble and they do a wonderful cream tea, though slightly overpriced (they steal the scones from the bakery round the corner)...

Alex

morganswift wrote:

RockBottom wrote:Technically I guess few American archaeologists were artifact thieves. Mostly because by the time we showed up, the Brits, French, and Germans had stolen about everything that could be moved! And having spent Saturday before last with the Assyrian stuff in the British Museum, I'd have to add that they stole a lot of stuff that couldn't be moved.

Now I really am not an archaeologist (can barely spell it!) so I ain't gonna comment on what should and shouldn't be in the British Museum. All I know is they do have a LOT of rubble and they do a wonderful cream tea, though slightly overpriced (they steal the scones from the bakery round the corner)...

Alex

I was disappointed that all the tickets to the Chinese terra cotta army were sold out. But I do love that place. This was my fourth visit stretching back 10 years or so.

RockBottom wrote:And having spent Saturday before last with the Assyrian stuff in the British Museum, I'd have to add that they stole a lot of stuff that couldn't be moved.

And how! Man, those are big heavy chunks of rock!