Club Obi Wan

I know everyone here will stand by Adventurebilt and from what I've seen and heard I don't blame them. It's an amazin looking hat and I'm sure it's even better on your head. But with Indy4 coming out and Steve up to his 8th neck with orders, an AB may be too far for some to reach. Hopefully the factory hats are coming along nicely, but...

From your experience what Beaver felt alternatives have you discovered to come close to an AB?

Thanks

Art Fawcett of Vintage Silhouettes makes handmade Beaver hats for around $305.00. I'm currently working with him on a project for a beaver felt safari style hat. He specializes in vintage fedoras.
I believe there are posts here and on the FL that can attest to the quality of his work.

You can't go wrong with Art's hats. A+ all the way.

Cheers!

Dan

Check out the next 100% beaver from Peters Brothers too. Amazing hat, and the felt is from the same felter as the one Steve and Art uses.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q233 ... G_1285.jpg

Here's a scary photo of me wearing one when my wife and I met up with folks at DragonCon this past year.

Regard! Michaelson

Oh and JPdesigns is now selling beaver felt as well - $250 - even cheaper than an AB will be after CS comes out. :junior: -M

Mulceber wrote:Oh and JPdesigns is now selling beaver felt as well - $250 - even cheaper than an AB will be after CS comes out. :junior: -M

......but has anyone heard from Jimmy in awhile. ?

Good to know, I havent seen him around in a while.

Nice hat btw.

Nah, old A/C just wears them well.

Regards! Michaelson

Just a little caveat emptor. Pure beaver is expensive for any hatter to buy. And if you buy from America or Portugal, you can be assured of the pure beaver content. If bodies are bought from South America or China, the hatter may not get what he ordered. That is, if he orders pure beaver, it may or may not be pure beaver. It could be 70 per cent, and it would be hard to tell the difference. It takes basically 20 per cent beaver fur in a hat to give it that beaver feel or nap that beaver felt has. Feltmakers know this, as well as hatters. So most hatters pick their feltmakers based upon their reputation for delivering what is ordered.

Personally, I would not buy a body from South America or China. I don't trust them. But they are cheaper to buy for a hatter, and some use them, due to the lower cost. But I am paranoid when it comes to dealing with them. I tried one company early on, and ended up running away from them as fast as I could.

I don't think any of the hatters here uses South America or China for their felt, as most know better. But, if you go outside our little circle in search of a pure beaver felted hat, ask where the hatter sources his bodies from.

The best pure beaver bodies come from Portugal, Marc's felt maker. The next in line IMHO are the ones that Art and I use. But you pay the piper for them. And that is why most walk in hat shops charge 500 to 795 for dress grade pure beaver. If they are using the good stuff. It is always good to do your research prior to buying ANYTHING. Many times you "get what you pay for". Fedora

Dear Sir:
We are one of the leading hats and caps factories in china.
We will be very happy if can received any inquiries from you.

Best regards,

Figo - Marketing Executive (Email: sales05@nblanxess.com)

..................................................................
Ningbo Lanxess Limited
Address: Rm509,HeBang Main Buliding,933TianTong North Road,Ningbo,China
Tel: 86-574-2786 6868 Ext. 111
Fax: 86-574-87718618
Website: www.nblanxess.com

I get this sort of email all of the time, but not from the same company.

As most know, China has pushed up the price of fur, due to the apparel industry over there as well as the hatting industry.

What I fear the most is this. We have lost much of our other industry to China, and cheap labor countries. (Portugal is NOT one of them) I think it is only a matter of time, before my own felt factory will shut its doors-forever. I just heard from Brad Bowers, that my and Art's felt factory is not running any more felt until they sell out their overstock. There sales have plummeted. This has never happened since I have been using them. It is scary. Now, the Western market is their bread and butter. This leads me to believe that already many western hatters have changed their supplier!
If you can buy felt for 1/3 the price the US and Portugal feltmakers charge, it is enticing to do so. Cheap labor markets of certain parts of the world is killing our feltmaking industry, and have done so to all of the old furniture factories in my neck of the woods. I may not be able to make and sell what I sent to the film for that much longer. I won't be able to get the same felt.

I blame the American hatters for this. For me, I will use USA made felt until I cannot get it anymore. Once it dries up, I refuse to buy from those countries mentioned. My only savior would be Portugal, but it is a no brainer to know that they are next on the chopping block. Then there will be no high quality felt anymore. I have no doubt about that. You ever noticed how everything from China is low quality stuff? Or it has dangerous compounds included in the product? But the western hatters will have nice bank accounts. It's about the money. It also *****.

I appeal to all of you, ask where the felt is being made before you buy. If you don't you are only helping in killing our feltmaking industry and your neigbors will be losing decent paying jobs and benefits, and the middle class will shrink some more.

I see nothing wrong with buying high quality felt from Portugal. We can compete with them as their prices are in line with our own. Not so with these others. Just something to really think about. Fedora

Steve, is this information readily available from the vendors? If we ask them where their hats' felt comes from, will they even know, or tell us?

Speaking from my experience, that's one of the best kept secrets the hat makers seem to want to keep to themselves, short of how some of them make their hats. I know, I've asked before and the conversation was immediately shut down in that direction.

The way to get around that is to just asked a direct question....'do you source your felt from China or the U.S/Portugal?' That is an answer they CAN answer without telling you their actual supplier.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora wrote: I just heard from Brad Bowers, that my and Art's felt factory is not running any more felt until they sell out their overstock. There sales have plummeted. This has never happened since I have been using them. It is scary. Now, the Western market is their bread and butter.

Maybe this is naive of me, but are there any hopes that the new Indiana Jones movie will re-vitalize both the hat-making industry and the felt factories here? I think a lot of us are now noticing somewhat of a recent resurgance of interest in hats (I know that I'm sure seeing a lot more teens and young men wearing fedora-style hats here in southern California than I've seen around here before). It seems like the previous movies--particulary Raiders--captured people's interest in hats, and maybe with enough demand for hats there would be more demand on our own felt factories? Or am I just being overly optimistic?

Nothing wrong with being optimistic in my book!

I have to admit, AC, that it's refreshing to see someone who has a personal preference of rabbit felt over beaver. Even though the differences and advantages of both can be debated ad nauseam, when you find something that suits your personal needs and tastes, it's nice to recognize that. I love beaver felt, but I also like a good rabbit or blend. There are characteristics I like of both felts, and sometimes I'll choose the hat to wear based on my mood and how the individual hat fills that mood.

since pure beaver is what got this topic going...just what are the differences between beaver and bunny? Feel, texture, weight...?

Yes. Beaver felt is more dense than rabbit, and since beavers spend so much time in the water, the fur has added natural weathering properties, allowing for a more solid felt. It is generally a much smoother felt when pounced nicely. Rabbit felt is not as dense, so where it can also be pounced smoothly and hold up to the elements (depending on the grade of felt) over time it will not hold up as well as beaver.

I wonder what stuff the Special Edition Dorfman Pacifics are made from?

DP bought Milano. Milano has used Portugal felt for quite some time, since they lost their South African feltmaker. Closed the doors. So, the Official Indy Fedora, the pure beaver model is from Portugal felt. Made by Milano.

I have always said that if Indy was a real character, given he was raised at least part of his life out west, he would have been wearing pure beaver. The cowpokes choice of fur, due to its superiour ability to shed water for a longer period of time and due to the durabiltuy of the fur.

But I am a crazy gearhead........Fedora

like the paradox and noncomformity of Indy's character choosing to wear an otherwise rabbity city hat among his adventures. Lucas was brilliant when sticking to the fedora in that sense. (Not the felt itself, simply that a fedora was used - a la Bogart, the old serials, etc.)

Yeah, me too. What really sets his fedora off is that dimensional cut as well. Remember, while this cut is nothing new, it is rather rare when it comes to fedoras. I think that one facet really distinguishes this fedora from the majority of fedoras worn in that era. Most were the same brim width all the way around, even Bogey's.

Most of men's hats from that era, were blends rather than pure rabbit. Not all, but most. This was because, generally speaking, a blend just makes for a more stable hat, and the non rabbit content gave it a different feel that was probably well noticed way back then.

I heard someone say once that the dimensional cut was something invented for the Indy films. Not so. Go to ebay and look at that brim flange that is a dimensional brim flange. Not a derby one either that has the reverse dimensional cut on it, that is the sides are wider than the front and back, the exact reverse of the Indy cut. Fedora

Fedora wrote:Just a little caveat emptor. Pure beaver is expensive for any hatter to buy. And if you buy from America or Portugal, you can be assured of the pure beaver content. If bodies are bought from South America or China, the hatter may not get what he ordered. That is, if he orders pure beaver, it may or may not be pure beaver. It could be 70 per cent, and it would be hard to tell the difference. It takes basically 20 per cent beaver fur in a hat to give it that beaver feel or nap that beaver felt has. Feltmakers know this, as well as hatters. So most hatters pick their feltmakers based upon their reputation for delivering what is ordered.

Personally, I would not buy a body from South America or China. I don't trust them. But they are cheaper to buy for a hatter, and some use them, due to the lower cost. But I am paranoid when it comes to dealing with them. I tried one company early on, and ended up running away from them as fast as I could.

I don't think any of the hatters here uses South America or China for their felt, as most know better. But, if you go outside our little circle in search of a pure beaver felted hat, ask where the hatter sources his bodies from.

The best pure beaver bodies come from Portugal, Marc's felt maker. The next in line IMHO are the ones that Art and I use. But you pay the piper for them. And that is why most walk in hat shops charge 500 to 795 for dress grade pure beaver. If they are using the good stuff. It is always good to do your research prior to buying ANYTHING. Many times you "get what you pay for". Fedora

JPD discussed, back in Jan, two beaver felts with me. He said the better one, from South America somewhere, was $300 whereas the other one he had was only $250 (the original felt I suppose and possibly from a US supplier). Was told by JPD that the South American felt was the better one.

Still haven't heard a word from him.

Was told by JPD that the South American felt was the better one.

Very well could have been. Several factories in S.A. He probably used a good one. I was generalizing, because what I bought when I first started was far inferiour to what I found in the US. Must be a decent company down there.

I have tried two from S.A. Won't mention names, but both were pretty bad felt. He must have used the one that I never got samples from.

Still, the best is made in Portugal. Hands down, but you pay the piper for that felt, at least the pure beaver. Bodies probably start at 5 bucks each and run up to a couple of bills from Portugal. S.A. is much, much cheaper to buy on the mid grades.

With that said, not many custom western hatters use S.A. felt. Call em, if you don't belive it. Fedora

Na, just passing along what was said to me. It is hard to find much out on the web though, have done some serious searching but never came up with much. Done searches on beaver felt, beaver felt fedoras, etc, etc... Not a whole lot of info out there.

Done searches on beaver felt, beaver felt fedoras, etc, etc... Not a whole lot of info out there.

Yes, most of the feltmakers don't have sites, unless they also make their own line of hats like Cury. And the last time I looked(3 years ago) Cury only made a rabbit body and a rabbit/wool blend) Most of the suppliers are hard to find unless you get in with a hatter who already has them. The samples I got from them had a lot of guard hair in the mix, Poor sorting.

Things change with time as well, because the other felt I saw from S.A. was 4 or 5 years ago. At that time, this one feltmaker sent very nice samples, but the order you would get in would NOT be of the same quality as the samples. Irritating to say the least. Especially after you forked over a couple of grand. And at that time a pure beaver was not even available from them. Only 80 per cent beaver, plus lower percentages were available.

Alot of hatters have tried some of the S.A. bodies and found them too trashy. That is, other fibers besides fur make it into the hat. Of course this generally is the result of NOT cleaning the machines used in feltmaking. Or mimimal sorting of the grades of under fur. Both Marc and my felt maker clean the machines after each run of a particular blend, or pure furs. This is absolutely necessary when running good felt.

As I said things may have changed in S.A. I heard, rumor really the Portugal Co. has a felt factory down there, or is in some way affilated with them, but this is rumor. I have no facts to support that. If so, I would imagine they would be the best felt maker down there.

I recall when I was waiting on a small run of felt from J.W. who was trying to be a distributor for this one S.A. felt maker, and was getting impatient as it had been about 6 months since I was told the shipment to him was imminent. He finally went down there to tour the factory and check on his order. The order was sitting on the shipping room floor and had been there for months. It seems some of those folks have a different concept of time. People that have traveled there have told me the same thing. And back when I was in college, I had a Prof. who had just returned from a dig site down there. He told the class that if you asked the diggers to be there at 7 a.m. you might see them at 9 or 10!! I think this was at work with the factory Jim was trying to use. When the bodies finally made it, they looked like they were made to make a kid's hat from. Tiny, tiny bodies. He tried unsuccessfully to get them to size the bodies to no avail. They would tag a body that said 7 1/4 / 7 3/8, and it would be the same size body as what they sold for a size 7 5/8 hat!! He finally gave up. The felt was ok, but nothing special.


Milano, a hat maker with a reputation for making very high quality hats, used a company out of South Africa for years. It went belly up. Very high quality felt. The only replacement he could find that he was pleased with at that time was Portugal, Marc's feltmaker. Now, I am talking dress bodies here, as I don't know who he used for his western hats.

The folks that I use have only been selling dress bodies for a few years. In fact, when Bernie asked me to help out Mark at Barons with a felt supplier, I told him about my feltmaker. He did not know that they now sold dress bodies, along with their bread and butter, the western bodies. John at Montana Hatters uses their western bodies, so does Nathanial, and J.W. And many others. I can go to any western hat shop online and tell by their color selection if they use my supplier.

There very well probably are some decent beaver bodies coming out of S.A. these days, but I bet it is not the one I tried to use. This was back when I was a green horn in so far as grades of felt was concerned. Working up various brands of raw bodies tells you pretty quick how good a body is. A high quality body requires so much less work than a lower quality one. Fedora

Yeah, no clue. Then again, cant get JPD to respond to prove out anything .

Oh well, moved on to Mr. Fawcett. No offense, but right now, 12 months is a little long to wait.

actually, it was said that the s a felt I am using is better than the standard. Still not as dense as the u.s. Right now the best way to get me is to call, and leave a message. It is on the top of me website. I got my computer to work well enough to read emails and any that gave me a phone number I have been calling. I hope to have time to reply to others this weekend.

Jimmy

JPdesign wrote:actually, it was said that the s a felt I am using is better than the standard. Still not as dense as the u.s. Right now the best way to get me is to call, and leave a message. It is on the top of me website. I got my computer to work well enough to read emails and any that gave me a phone number I have been calling. I hope to have time to reply to others this weekend.

Jimmy

So, what I said has been factual.