Club Obi Wan

Seems like every Tom, Dick and Gary is now claiming he made hats for the Indy films: :evil:

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.p ... post282851

I would have been inclined to overlook this article as a possible misunderstanding by the interviewer; except for the fact that in an earlier, unrelated thread, another Rave poster claimed that White told him he made the hats for "Last Crusade."

Jack

From what I'm getting out of this article, the claim is that he's made hats for movies including indiana jones. Now the interviewer wouldn't get this idea unless he was told so hmm??

I don't know what to say... I have researched and there are a multitude of articles on Gary White and references to his hats being in famous movies and as well to Indiana Jones. Not sure how he can claim it. Aside from this, I do own a Gary White fedora. It's all 100% beaver. Craftsmanship was awesome. I am not saying it's spot on, but nevertheless the #### guy is an awesome hatter in my books.

Sergei wrote:I don't know what to say... I have researched and there are a multitude of articles on Gary White and references to his hats being in famous movies and as well to Indiana Jones. Not sure how he can claim it. Aside from this, I do own a Gary White fedora. It's all 100% beaver. Craftsmanship was awesome. I am not saying it's spot on, but nevertheless the #### guy is an awesome hatter in my books.

My experience with him was not so good; he shrank one of my Herbert Johnsons I sent to him for a reblock, to the point that I could no longer wear it. And he also told me the man who made the hats for "Raiders" was dead, and that he was sure Herbert Johnson was not the maker of the hats used in the Indy films. I think he was just trying to sell me one of his overpriced hats.

I'll stick with Steve Delk as my "custom master hatter."

Jack

Jack

This is old news - early '90's news to be exact. Gary White's been claiming for a long time he made hats for LC - it's only a few years ago that we really became certain that it wasn't true. I have heard good things about his hats as well, although from what I hear, his method of dying the hats is sub-par, with the result that if the hat is taken into a rain storm the dye will run. :junior: -M

Mulceber wrote:This is old news - late '90's news to be exact. Gary White's been claiming for a long time he made hats for LC - it's only a few years ago that we really became certain that it wasn't true. I have heard good things about his hats as well, although from what I hear, his method of dying the hats is sub-par, with the result that if the hat is taken into a rain storm the dye will run. :junior: -M

Actually, it's even older news-- my transaction with him took place in the early 90's, if I remember correctly.

What concerns me is that not everyone is as knowledgeable as we are, and I wonder how many "proud owners" there are of "authentic" $600 Indy hats (or whatever it is he's charging) that have no connection to the films at all.

Jack

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. :junior: -M

Mulceber wrote:Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. :junior: -M

No mistake, really-- I just wish there was a way to stop people from being suckered by this sort of thing. I guess we're lucky P.T. Barnum wasn't a hatter...

Jack

It's funny to see Gary White being bashed. I remember a time when his products were highly regarded depite the high prices.

I agree with you Satipo... that's why I chimed in. For those that are bashing, I wonder if they ever saw one. I haven't had this problem but supposedly he powders his hats. My GW fedora has been caught in some rain storms and no problem here. Maybe they were earlier version of other hats.

Maybe Michaelson or Rundquist can chime in as well. They used to own a Gary White. Also shed some more light on the IJ connection. T

At this point, I am less concerned with the quality of his hats than the quality of his claims. If he really made hats that were worn by Harrison Ford in the Indy films, he should be able to provide some documentation to that effect.

Jack

His website has a pic of Indy front and center, although I don't recall seeing a statement that he actually made the hats for the films.

Apparently, allegedly, he's making this claim to people who express interest in buying his Indy hats. Apparently, allegedly, he also made this claim in the article that I posted the link to above.

If he did make hats for the films, he deserves to be credited for it. If he didn't, he should clear the air and stop apparently, allegedly, trying to take credit for the work of other people.

Jack

Sergei wrote:Maybe Michaelson or Rundquist can chime in as well. They used to own a Gary White. Also shed some more light on the IJ connection. T

I still have mine, and it's one of my personal favorites. The ONLY problem I have with my GW is he machine sews his sweats to the body. This perforates the felt, and the last time JPDesign worked on it when he was still at Peters Brothers, he told me it should be the last, as the brim will rip right off the crown if someone tries to pull it over a block.

So, it quietly resides in it's hat box in retirement.

It's one of the MOST comfortable hats I own, and I'm still sorry it had to be retired.

As to the IJ connection....well, I know Gary has made that claim for years. When LC came out, we heard he was sent a C&D letter by Lucasfilm folks, and he got REALLY quiet about that claim....even though he never took it off his website. To date, no one that I know has EVER found a connection between GW and any of the Indy films, unless someone sneaked it into production and used it in a product placement. We KNOW that happened a lot, especially in TofD. It COULD have happened during LC, but no one knows.

Regards! Michaelson

I guess when a claim like this can be neither proved or disproved, it all comes down to belief.

The bottom line for me personally, and my last word on this, is that based on my experience with White I'd be hard pressed to take his word that he made hats used in the Indy films, or even to buy a hat from him, no matter how superior the quality may be. Honesty and integrity are important factors to me in deciding who I will do business with, or recommend to thers.

Claims are cheap, and White's hats are very expensive; Caveat Emptor, folks (let the buyer beware).

Jack

Really, all he would have had to do was to provide one hat for some background folks and he could make that claim. He may have done so.

After the filming of the new Indy film was complete, I had one of the stunt extras to call me and tell me that one of Ford's stand ins was wearing a Barons hat. He saw the logo.

But, the hat that Ford wore in this location, was an AB. I know that with 100 per cent certainly, and I can tell how I know later on.

So, as long as you have even one hat in the film, no matter who wore it, you can claim you made hats for the film. Other hatters are doing so as we speak.

Now, in so far as Gary is concerned, all I can say is he is a very nice man. I like him. I think he has a really nice shop, and does a great job. And he is one of the guys that is keeping dress hats alive. So kudos to him.

Gary had some problems way back when he lost his main felt source with the war that occured over there. I think he may have tried several sources from that part of the world before he settled in on a particular one. He may have bought some lessor quality felt at one time, but I am sure he changed it as soon as he could.


I think at one time he went with Tonak, for his rabbit bodies since that is all that they make. Tonak makes some of the finest rabbit in the world, and some of the worst, just depending on what you are willing to pay for felt. They have many different grades. And they have one of the best fur blenders in the world, BUT, his talent is being mostly wasted as they only sell rabbit. But, he can blend the various rabbit furs like no one else. Their top of the line rabbit I have heard is as good as it gets. I believe it. But I doubt you will see much of that over here. Because of the cheaper alternitives, and the fact that American men can no longer judge quality the way we used to do when we all wore hats, and knew what quality was. Just my 2 cents. Fedora

On that note, it was my understanding that Camptown hat felts are now sourced from the same felt maker that Fedora and Art uses, is that right, JJ?

Peters Bros are now sourcing their dress felts from the same felter too, so that's 4 hat makers that use the same felt maker as AB.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora wrote:So, as long as you have even one hat in the film, no matter who wore it, you can claim you made hats for the film. Other hatters are doing so as we speak.

Well, a few months ago someone on another forum claimed that Peters Bros. had made 10 hats that were used in KOTCS. I emailed them about this but received no reply, so I assumed it was just a rumor.

Under these circumstances of so many people laying claims to the hat, I think it was a wise decision to back yourself up and document exactly what you did. That way there can be no second-guessing about the part you and Marc actually played in making the hats.

Jack

The information was totally wrong, and Joe Peters misquoted. He called me about it when it happened. They made 10 hats for executives at Disneyworld during the time KotCS was being filmed, and who had a loose connection to the production only. Somehow someone combined the two pieces of information and made the PB being involved in the filming.

That's what happens when someone hears half a story then posts it as being 'the truth'. Folks read it and run with it. That's why you never read that information here when it happened, as it was squelched as soon as it hit the web.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:The information was totally wrong, and Joe Peters misquoted. He called me about it when it happened. They made 10 hats for executives at Disneyworld during the time KotCS was being filmed, and who had a loose connection to the production only. Somehow someone combined the two pieces of information and made the PB being involved in the filming.

That's what happens when someone hears half a story then posts it as being 'the truth'. Folks read it and run with it. That's why you never read that information here when it happened, as it was squelched as soon as it hit the web.

Regards! Michaelson

This is very good to hear. Not to put the other forums down, but I have found COW to be the forum with the most serious and dedicated Indy scholars.

Jack

eazybox wrote:This is very good to hear. Not to put the other forums down, but I have found COW to be the forum with the most serious and dedicated Indy scholars.

Jack

Well, considering other sites and sources are always quoting information found and researched by members from here; and considering Lucas, Spielberg, and company came here during their research for KotCS; and knowing that members of COW had involvement in the film... is it any wonder?

binkmeisterRick wrote:

eazybox wrote:This is very good to hear. Not to put the other forums down, but I have found COW to be the forum with the most serious and dedicated Indy scholars.

Jack

Well, considering other sites and sources are always quoting information found and researched by members from here; and considering Lucas, Spielberg, and company came here during their research for KotCS; and knowing that members of COW had involvement in the film... is it any wonder?

Not to me. This is a little off topic, but on another forum I have responded to questions about which fedora is the best choice.

After writing a long and carefully considered response about what I have learned about the various choices, I sometimes get responses like, "well, I don't think my mother will spend that much, so I'll have to settle for a wool DP."

That almost NEVER happens here.

Jack

True, same here....but that said, folks who are at that point of the hobby are just as welcome as the 'high rollers' in beaver hats.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote: True, same here....but that said, folks who are at that point of the hobby are just as welcome as the 'high rollers' in beaver hats.

Regards! Michaelson

That right there sums up my feelings about this site . No matter your experience or budget, it should always be about how much Indy means to us. I may be a new member to this forum, but I have never felt anything but good feelings from everybody here. I enjoy learning from both the wise and new members. This little statement sums it up for me, no matter a persons collection, at one point they were the new guy on the block once.

Amen to that, my friend.

Our old friend Renderking said it best, and it's sort of adopted as the 'unofficial' motto of the site..."Come for the gear...stay for the people!"

I think he captured the spirit of Indygear quite nicely with that single line.

Regards! Michaelson

I stayed for the wallets, too... um, PEOPLE! I meant people! 8-[

It really is nice to see all grades of gearheads here and how everyone gets along. I've seen budget Indy fans drool and respect the gear of the high end collectors as well as the high end folk complimenting and helping along the budget folk with an equal amount of respect. Mass hysteria! Dogs and cats living together!

Binks, I thought you were going to say that you stayed for the "bag straps". Do we wear it outside the jacket this week or inside? I forgot...

::checks 2008 Barnett Calendar::

Looks like an inside week, and inside until the premiere of the film. After that, it's straps outside until Labor Day, at which point it reverts to Wearer's Option.

Who printed this silly thing?...::squints::..Donovan Media Goods.



hmmm...

The 'worth of perfect information'. If you use the suggested strap placement as suggested in the Donovan calendar, you've chosen 'poorly'.

Regards! Michaelson

Sergei, I like to mix it up a bit. I wear my bag strap through my sleeve.

binkmeisterRick wrote:Sergei, I like to mix it up a bit. I wear my bag strap through my sleeve.

Hmmm...one-upmanship, you got me. I guess the next step is to tattoo a bag strap. Let's see Raiders, TOD or LC buckle?

Don't forget the strap grooves on your tattoo.

eazybox wrote:I would have been inclined to overlook this article as a possible misunderstanding by the interviewer; except for the fact that in an earlier, unrelated thread, another Rave poster claimed that White told him he made the hats for "Last Crusade."

Jack

Hi Jack!

[No - I'm not taking over this thread...]

Someone already mentioned this to me here... and since then I'm more then a little ticked off right now. There's nothing I hate more then seeing this group getting lied to.

Things like this where people are misleading us don't realize the damage they do to feora wearers and Vintage Aficionados in general. I'm mulling over whether or not I want to do something more about this publicly on my own site or just let it rest.

Is there anything we can do as a community to take this guy down?

Probably not, Ren. He's an old established Buffalo, NY hatter, plenty of clients out of NYC, and his number of Indy fedoras per year when compared to other hatters is more than likely small. He's known in the hobby, and as Fedora said above, he may have HAD a hat appear in a product placement in LC. He was around back then.

So, why put in a major effort for something that, in the long run, is not worth the effort in this particular case. He's old news really.

JMO, though. If you feel a need charge the gates, have at it, being the webmaster of Fedora Chronicles. You may carry a lot more weight anyway, as we're a small part of his business, where you represent the fedora wearing public at large.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:JMO, though. If you feel a need charge the gates, have at it, being the webmaster of Fedora Chronicles. You may carry a lot more weight anyway, as we're a small part of his business, where you represent the fedora wearing public at large.

Regards! Michaelson

I apprecate your encouragement. I have something in the works that I need to finish and submit it for review.

I apologize for my hot-headed behavior in the past, present. I confess that when I see this group getting slighted, cheated or lied to, I go for the throat and create collateral damage. I've taken a some time to reassess my goals and my approach.

I (like everyone else) want everyone to play FAIR. When someone is honest with the Retroverse (the part of the internet that's devoted to recapturing the vintage look - From Jones and Ness, To Sky Captain and The Rocketeer, Dick Tracy and The Shaddow...) then we should get behind them.

Were Barron hats honest they would be much better off in some circles. If I'm in the wrong... let me know.

OK - I'm getting back to work.

Hi Ren,

The only point I would add to this is that I dealt with Gary White in 1993, which was after LC, and at that time he did not claim to me that he made any hats for the Indy films-- just that the man who made the "Raiders" hat was dead. So, apparently his "recollection" of having made the LC hats has improved since then.

I understand your anger and I feel the same way about alleged claims such as this which can do harm to innocent people; but I'm not really a person who is interested in vengeance-- just in getting the truth out. If you feel that you can help in doing this, then more power to you. Unfortunately, the truth seems to need all the help it can get these days.

Jack

Well said...Aeris_Canon. You nailed it. I'm glad you took the time to put pen to paper. At least I know the guy and have his creation. I never bothered to ask about the claim. But frankly the claim is not his website. Clearly as the facts fall, he is not making any of his business on Indy hats. I would venture to guess, he maybe sold about 10 hats to all of us. 20 max. We are a small tight community. He has a healthy business beyond us. But then again, I am into truth. However, there are so many other things to worry about, this is not going to let me loose sleep tonight. And BTW, I did pay full price for the one fedora from Gary White.

AC,

I would like to hear White's side of this myself. As I said, I'm only interested in finding out the truth, whatever that may be. I don't think anything that was posted here will ruin White's business or reputation; as Michaelson said, his Indy hat is only a very small part of what he sells.

What bothers me is the possibilty that some people, however few, are buying his "Indy" thinking it was used in LC when it may not have been-- however the information originally got out. If it is not true, then White is free to set the record straight about it himself.

Jack

EDIT: Sergei, I basically agree with you, but 10 to 20 hats is a lot if people bought them thinking they had some connection to the films. Someone should contact White about this and get an "official" statement from him about it. Maybe I will.

eazybox wrote:..

EDIT: Sergei, I basically agree with you, but 10 to 20 hats is a lot if people bought them thinking they had some connection to the films. Someone should contact White about this and get an "official" statement from him about it. Maybe I will.

Well, please do that. In a respectful manner. Please call him. But honestly having bought one of his hats, it was not the intention of getting a full blown Indy rendition. At the time he was the one offering a 100% beaver felt. That was my curiosity. In that time period no one was delivering a fedora with 100% beaver. Just to get the record straight.

Under these circumstances of so many people laying claims to the hat, I think it was a wise decision to back yourself up and document exactly what you did. That way there can be no second-guessing about the part you and Marc actually played in making the hats.

Well, I have the checks from Genre Productions(pics of the checks) I have the original invoices with the hats listed for Ford, and the original 3 stunt doubles names, and hat sizes on the invoices. I have the tear off tab from the check that lists the Ford hats and the stunt hats. I think I have my bases covered. Plus, I have Bernie telling the world at least who made half of the hats(Marc should be on the bonus dvd) Yeah, I think only an idiot would dispute my proof and Bernie's acknowledgement on film of who made the hats. But the world is chock full of idiots, so other claims really don't surprise me. Money is a powerful motivator. Just look at our governement. Fedora


Check for some the original 36 hat order.



Notice that Bernie mailed me the check from the N.M. film site, or close by. You guys who want to save this pic might better do it quick, as I may not leave it up for long. But I thought it would be nice for you guys to actually see what one looked like, and the fact it was mailed while the first location shoot with Ford was taking place. You won't see one of these from the other hatter, of the earlier films-HJ. I think this is sort of special. So save away. This is trivial film history here. Fedora

Ya know,
while I agree with Renderking's desire to see misleading or even confusing claims brought into the light, we may be seeing the beginning of the end of this sort of thing.

Lot's of folks after LC walked about sayin' "Yeah, Stetson made all the hats" and "Nah, this guy in Los Angeles makes them" and "no, Harrison Ford was in London one day. There must've been some magic in that brown felt hat he found, for when he placed it on his head,..."

All that talk and chatter will be killed fairly quickly when today's generation looks up and says, "Dude, Adventurebilt. A couple o' guys loved the flicks and made 'em dead on, and they still make 'em... didn't you watch the DVD?"

And they'll look into it, the ones who care, and they'll find their way here and they'll read the archives-
the tales of Keppler or the great gusset debate, gray hat vs. brown, the rise of the Federation and the birth of Adventurebilt, the mad crafts of Magnoli and Todd's dedications. They'll learn names like MK and Deckard, Renderking and Michaelson, Dalex and Pyrolene, David Morgan and Joe Strain, Peter Botwright and Herbert Johnson.
They may wander over to the Fedora Lounge, or to the Raven, but they'll have the info at their fingertips...
They'll be remade into the fans they always hoped they could be.

My god, it'll be magnificent.

Spatterdash wrote:Ya know,
while I agree with Renderking's desire to see misleading or even confusing claims brought into the light, we may be seeing the beginning of the end of this sort of thing.

Lot's of folks after LC walked about sayin' "Yeah, Stetson made all the hats" and "Nah, this guy in Los Angeles makes them" and "no, Harrison Ford was in London one day. There must've been some magic in that brown felt hat he found, for when he placed it on his head,..."

All that talk and chatter will be killed fairly quickly when today's generation looks up and says, "Dude, Adventurebilt. A couple o' guys loved the flicks and made 'em dead on, and they still make 'em... didn't you watch the DVD?"

And they'll look into it, the ones who care, and they'll find their way here and they'll read the archives-
the tales of Keppler or the great gusset debate, gray hat vs. brown, the rise of the Federation and the birth of Adventurebilt, the mad crafts of Magnoli and Todd's dedications. They'll learn names like MK and Deckard, Renderking and Michaelson, Dalex and Pyrolene, David Morgan and Joe Strain, Peter Botwright and Herbert Johnson.
They may wander over to the Fedora Lounge, or to the Raven, but they'll have the info at their fingertips...
They'll be remade into the fans they always hoped they could be.

My god, it'll be magnificent.

Hear, hear! And thanks for the "check," Steve!

Jack

To answer AC, Gary told folks himself he made the hats for LC (me included in a couple phone calls), and it WAS on his website.....until Lucasfilm legal eagles told him to take it off and tone it down, which he did. Since the letter was not written by him, he left it up.

That said, he makes a VERY nice hat, and it's STILL one of my personal favorites in my collection. I just wish he had hand sewn the sweats...

Regards! Michaelson

eazybox wrote:Hi Ren,

The only point I would add to this is that I dealt with Gary White in 1993, which was after LC, and at that time he did not claim to me that he made any hats for the Indy films-- just that the man who made the "Raiders" hat was dead. So, apparently his "recollection" of having made the LC hats has improved since then.

I have no issues with Gary White. I'm not even sure he should be discussed in this thread at all. If we have people in Buffalo then I would like to see someone do for Mr. White what we're doing for Camptown Ken.

This isn't about settling down once and for all who made the fedora's for the Indiana Jones films (Herbert Johnson and Swalles...) because it's just irrelevant at this point or most of us and something that's been settled by this website...

Fact is now, nobody really cares who made what other then the want to know a piece of movie trivia or how those fedoras were made. Since those who made the fedoras for those films don't make the fedora's anymore that are the same quality as they used to while Steve Delk and Marc at Adventurebilt makes a fedora that not only looks like the Jones fedora - but holds up better. [Over 2 years, no taper. And the New England has really REALLY tried.]

Then there's Akubra, Camptown, Art Fawcett that makes custom 1940's fedoras, Aaron Hats that sells just about everything else... Who made the fedora for those films isn't as important as getting one that's just as good or better elsewhere.

I understand your anger and I feel the same way about alleged claims such as this which can do harm to innocent people; but I'm not really a person who is interested in vengeance-- just in getting the truth out. If you feel that you can help in doing this, then more power to you. Unfortunately, the truth seems to need all the help it can get these days.

The reason why this irritates me and causes great frustration is that I remember how hard it was to find a good fedora and have to deal with the whims of Madison Ave and the retailer who decide for the locals what's "In" and what's "Out." All I've ever wanted was a fedora with a tall crown, a wide brim in a reasonable shade of brown. I know what it's like saving for a fedora, having my heart set on something because of some outrageous claims - only to discover that what I bought wasn't what it was supposed to be.

It's like a car dealer telling a Chevy aficionado that "Chevy Builds The Best Jeeps... and I have one here for you" with a Jeep with a boot-leg Chevy Emblem on the front and back. The gall of some people and what they will do to nail down a sale is unethical and grays the line of legality.

A hatter that must not be named tried to rope me into a scheme where he wanted to get everyone to believe HE was the hatter for the (then) unknown title for the Fourth Indiana Jones flick. It was an outright like and full-blown make-believe on his part. But if he could coheres "Renderking Fisk" to get everyone on his bandwagon (and presented this to me as a 'business opportunity," as if someone could PAY ME to lie to all of you...) then if he could convince everyone that he was making the hats for the next movie - then he would sell more to the "Indy Fan suckers" - not my words, but his attitude.

This character actually LIED on another forum that I supported him getting the contract, even after a few phone calls and e-mails that I wasn't interested (and the words 'Restraining Order' was used a few times, too.)

To me - lying about who made the hats for the movie is like lying to a community about a little kid who has cancer just so someone can take a vacation in the middle of winter. Imagine finding out that the nickles and dimes donated to the humane society is used by the cashier to buy beer after work.

For me, it's the principle of the matter. I just don't hate people who lie to this group, I loath them. Maybe I have anger issues... who knows.