Anybody have a custom made with a lower crown- 5- 5 1/4 inch

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:15 pm

Yeah, I know, not screen accurate and all....anyway, has anyone had a custom Indy hat made with a lower crown, (than 5 1/2 and up)
say around 5 inches to 5 1/4 inches?
If anyone has, please post pics with specs, maker, etc. Thanks!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:00 pm

Something to think about when considering lower crowns with the Indy top crease is this. The Indy type top crease requires a bit more crown height than a teardrop or c-dent crease. Most tear drops have this rounded portion, that protrudes upward, which your head can touch, and fit into without pushing out the top crease completely. The nature of the Indy top crease generally requires the hat to be at least 5 inches tall once creased, in order NOT for the head to push out the top crease. Now this is a very general rule, because if you have a short forehead, and a flattest head shape on top, a lower Indy type crease MAY present no problems when ordered with a lower crown height. But if you forehead is tall, or regular, a shortened Indy fedora will not keep the top crease in place. Your head will hit it, and push it out. I can wear a 5 1/4 open crowned Indy fedora, but I can't pull it down to keep it on in a wind without pushing out the top crease. And the hat does NOT look cool with the top crease pushed out. IMHO. Fedora

genphideaux · Post by **genphideaux** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:27 pm

Fedora,

I have found that to be true for me. I have a 5 1/2 open with a center crease and if I have to pull it down I will push the crease out or at best hit the top of my head, either way it bugs the heck out of me. I have found for me a 5 3/4 to 6 open when creased to a center dent at 4 3/4 front and a 4 1/2 back not only has the look but also room for the top of my melon. YMMV

Drifter · Post by **Drifter** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:08 pm

Thanks for the info Fedora.

So if the crown's height can only be shortened so much before you lose the Indy look, what other modifications ( brim dimensions etc..) would you use when creating a custom made fedora. Lets say..to make a hat look good on a small round head.

'

That being of course if an AB Deluxe is out of ones price range. * Fedora has stated before that Marc uses a round Hat block*

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:44 pm

The shape and size of the brim greatly affect the final look of a hat on a particular person. When I ordered my MC/HJ, I provided pictures of my face and head, front view, side view and back so Steve could fit the hat to my features, and it worked! Steve provided a terrific hat that is also very flattering to my features. If you order an AB or a MC/HJ you should do the same. Check out this pic...

The hat on the left is my old, off the shelf, fur felt DP. The hat on the right is the new MC/HJ that Steve made for me.
See how the custom hat works better with my round face than the off the shelf? That's the brim at work. Well, that and the fact that it's just a better hat, but you get the idea.

Johnny

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:58 pm

That is Awesome!

Johnny

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:16 pm

This is my "short" indy hat...

It wasn't meant to be but I'm glad a have a hat that is shorter than 5 1/2 because it looks bloody good LOL and I think it's not far at all from screen accuracy

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:23 pm

Great pics Erri! I really enjoyed the rest that you sent me too.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:25 pm

whiskyman wrote:Great pics Erri! I really enjoyed the rest that you sent me too.

Hey Whiskyman, thanks. So you like your ex hat eh?

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:34 pm

Oh, that's one of mine? Looks better on you!
Actually I think most people here probably own something that was once mine!

MY Ab probably has the lowest crown - I think the front pinch is at about 3.5" today!! I've ditched Raiders and gone on a tangent.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:36 pm

whiskyman wrote:Actually I think most people here probably own something that was once mine!

I don't.

Regard! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:39 pm

Aeris_Canon wrote: Found one.
It's a 5 1/2" Herbert Johnson that had been customized into a 5 1/4".
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5750 ... ql4ek8.gif

Not bad for a close enough (I think they were going for some kind of Cairo look). Of course, it's not tall enough to be an accurate Indy hat but they did an okay job with it there, IMO.

Not bad at all indeed

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:39 pm

There's still time!! Some choice pieces will be available very shortly...

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:41 pm

You NEVER know, my friend......

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:13 pm

Found one.
It's a 5 1/2" Herbert Johnson that had been customized into a 5 1/4".

Yeah, I agree. If you measured from the bottom of the ribbon to the top of the crown I bet it would effectively be a 5 1/4 open crowned hat. The brim break has relaxed, to the point that part of the crown is becoming a part of the brim. It droops.

Now I got a brand new one for you guys. I sold a hat to a film prop collector who had some actual film used gear and props. He told me that the original Raiders fedora was actually 6 1/4 open crown, and they actually doctored the entire film to make the hat appear the way that it does. That is, it never existed in the state that we see it.

I gotta laugh, because I reckon this is the best one to date. I guess they also doctored all of the PR pics, and behind the scenes filming as well.

This guy was dead serious. Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:23 pm

Fedora wrote:
Found one.
It's a 5 1/2" Herbert Johnson that had been customized into a 5 1/4".
Yeah, I agree. If you measured from the bottom of the ribbon to the top of the crown I bet it would effectively be a 5 1/4 open crowned hat. The brim break has relaxed, to the point that part of the crown is becoming a part of the brim. It droops.

Now I got a brand new one for you guys. I sold a hat to a film prop collector who had some actual film used gear and props. He told me that the original Raiders fedora was actually 6 1/4 open crown, and they actually doctored the entire film to make the hat appear the way that it does. That is, it never existed in the state that we see it. I gotta laugh, because I reckon this is the best one to date. I guess they also doctored all of the PR pics, and behind the scenes filming as well. This guy was dead serious. Fedora

This one was really unheard

Did he tell you how the hat was doctored? Did you ask him how does he know considering that, being a collector, I guess he owns some screen used hats (therefore already "doctored" and not new opencrown)? I'm really curious about this

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:37 pm

Fedora wrote:Something to think about when considering lower crowns with the Indy top crease is this. The Indy type top crease requires a bit more crown height than a teardrop or c-dent crease. Most tear drops have this rounded portion, that protrudes upward, which your head can touch, and fit into without pushing out the top crease completely. The nature of the Indy top crease generally requires the hat to be at least 5 inches tall once creased, in order NOT for the head to push out the top crease. Now this is a very general rule, because if you have a short forehead, and a flattest head shape on top, a lower Indy type crease MAY present no problems when ordered with a lower crown height. But if you forehead is tall, or regular, a shortened Indy fedora will not keep the top crease in place. Your head will hit it, and push it out. I can wear a 5 1/4 open crowned Indy fedora, but I can't pull it down to keep it on in a wind without pushing out the top crease. And the hat does NOT look cool with the top crease pushed out. IMHO. Fedora

Thanks Steve- I hadn't thought of that- I guess my problem is wanting an everyday hat; not needing a screen accurate bash, and the straight sided Indy hat offerings that I've seen probably wouldn't look right shaped any other way, or would they? I'm just thinking I would look like a dork in a chef's hat with a tall Raider's crown. The only reference I have to go by is my souvenir wool IJ hat (that actually has a teardrop bash), that has a open crowned height of ~ 5 1/4" (hard to tell- bashed tallest side is 4 3/4) and a 2 1/2" brim

[/img]

DrClemente · Post by **DrClemente** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:55 am

Now that is a nice lid, citRon. It looks great on you even if it is wool model. You can have one made from rabbit or beaver felt using the same specs and you're all set.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:11 am

citron,

I see that hat and I think it's way to short a crown for me to wear.

JulianK · Post by **JulianK** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:27 am

I see that hat and I think it's way to short a crown for me to wear.

I'm not sure if its the crown height or the taper that makes the hat look small. I have the same hat however and he pulls it off much better than I do with my round face.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:35 am

This one was really unheard Did he tell you how the hat was doctored? Did you ask him how does he know considering that, being a collector, I guess he owns some screen used hats (therefore already "doctored" and not new opencrown)? I'm really curious about this

Yes, I sat completely speechless for a few seconds. I actually did not know what to think at the time. It took hanging up the phone and thinking about it awhile to realize the impact of such a statement. But the guy was dead serious. Now, the interesting part is this guy worked in Hollywood during the time of Raiders, and left the film business and now owns a company in the mid west. He is also a film prop collector and stated that he owned 2 or the original film used Raider fedoras. If I recall correctly, he said the hat was too tall and they doctored the film. Now this was before CGI and I don't know HOW they would have done so. I think it is just another conspiracy theory myself. It is beyond the pale to me. And I guess the most outrageous one I have heard to date.

The lack of Raider fedoras in Lucas's warehouse may be contributed to the hats being "on lease" as _ has clued us in on, and the bad deal Deborah had worked up with that company that leased them the costume. I assume most hats were returned to them, except for the few that the big boys kept. Lucas being one of them. This first hat is so surrounded in mystery that I doubt we will ever know the true story about it. This creates a blank slate, practically, that we can impose our own theories. Just look at the theories over the years on this board. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:41 am

If this is a certain collector I know of who owns "screen used props," I wouldn't believe a word of it!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:17 pm

You know on regarding open crown heights, I think one very important factor MUST be considered whenever discussing crown heights. And that very important thing is the block shape itself. A 5 1/2 open crown of one particular blockshape may actually crease down to the specs of a 5 1/4 open crown of a different block shape. It is so hard to generalize when talking of crown heights. The shape of the dome enters into the equation in a big way. You can therefore take a number 51 block that is 5 1/2 inches tall, and a Columbia block that is 5 1/2 inches tall and each will lend totally different crown heights onced creased. It is almost like comparing apples to oranges. And I think this one factor tends to confuse open crown height issues, and makes it harder to be definite.

Tone, the scenerio you layed out is believable, as the hat looks as if that happened.

I was lucky enough to actually get the specs from a Raiders fedora with the Indy 4 film project. It wasn't a 5 1/4 open crown hat by the way. This is not to say that a 5 1/4 crown doesn't look good on some folks though. Sometimes you have to tailor the hat to the head and face. On me, the 5 1/4 crown doesn't work, due to my head pushing out the top crease if I have to tug the hat down to keep it on in a breeze. Regards, Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:35 pm

Oh, and in regards to the sweatband being removed and re-installed, the new film will feature some hats that have no sweatband. They were removed so the hats would fit. It seems wigs were not taken into account when the sizes were originally given us. So, a quick fix? Take out the sweats when needed. But Indy will keep his in. No wigs involved.

And the original crown height chosen was 5 1/4!!! And was promptly changed by the big guy. To 5 1/2. AFTER vewing all the crown heights and brim widths on Harrison, by filming him in the outfit with the various hats. The 5 1/2 won out in the director's eyes. And as Bernie said, no one knows this hat like Steven. His exact words. Verbatim. With that said, YOU will see various crown heights in this film. All the way from 5 1/4 to 5 3/4. I will let you guys debate which is which once the film comes out. This should be fun. Unless, of course you would not believe one of the guys who made the hats. As I said, this should be alot of fun. Afterall I will know for certain. We were not just a supplier for this film, it goes deeper than that, as you will hear on the bonus dvd when it comes out. Fedora

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:24 pm

DrClemente wrote:Now that is a nice lid, citRon. It looks great on you even if it is wool model. You can have one made from rabbit or beaver felt using the same specs and you're all set.

So maybe I should just buy the Dorfman 'official' fur felt Indy hat!

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:53 pm

Fedora wrote:Oh, and in regards to the sweatband being removed and re-installed, the new film will feature some hats that have no sweatband. They were removed so the hats would fit. It seems wigs were not taken into account when the sizes were originally given us. So, a quick fix? Take out the sweats when needed. But Indy will keep his in. No wigs involved.

And the original crown height chosen was 5 1/4!!! And was promptly changed by the big guy. To 5 1/2. AFTER vewing all the crown heights and brim widths on Harrison, by filming him in the outfit with the various hats. The 5 1/2 won out in the director's eyes. And as Bernie said, no one knows this hat like Steven. His exact words. Verbatim. With that said, YOU will see various crown heights in this film. All the way from 5 1/4 to 5 3/4. I will let you guys debate which is which once the film comes out. This should be fun. Unless, of course you would not believe one of the guys who made the hats. As I said, this should be alot of fun. Afterall I will know for certain. We were not just a supplier for this film, it goes deeper than that, as you will hear on the bonus dvd when it comes out. Fedora

WOW! No wonder! that last picture that came out the crown looked hugely tall on that one to me.

JPdesign · Post by **JPdesign** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:38 pm

In all my reading for the 8 years I have researching this I have never once heard of one specific piece of information being taken into consideration. This one factor can explain almost every strange thing about the hat in Raiders.

The sweatband and ribbon both seem to often be raise higher. The brim has a strange shape. The crown looks exessively tall, taller then the reported 5 1/2 inches.

When you strech a hat a size or more you are pushing the sides of the crown out. The outside edge of the brim, along with most of the rest of the brim, stays the same, it doesn't stretch. The inside of the brim is pused out and becomes part of the crown. This is below the ribbon and band line. If you look at the cairo picture above you can see this. When the stretching is not done evenly the brim gets pushed out of shape. The film crew probably didn't haul brim flanges to tunisia.

Stetching also causes the sweat band to be pushed tight against the crown of the hat. If you steam too much then this can create a line in the felt at the top edge of the sweat band, where the felt dips in.

Now, if you are wandering about the reason for this drastic stretching, here it comes.

are you ready?

Ford wears a 7 1/4, I have called to check his size with his service. If you call a british company and order a 7 1/4 with no other instructions, you will recieve a british 7 1/4, which is a US 7 1/8. The hats came in too small, so the had to be modified to fit.

The production crew probably thought it was a fortuitous mistake, because the hat would look more beat up after the stretching.

I have built a couple of hats on this theory and they come out looking pretty good.

Jimmy

Drifter · Post by **Drifter** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:02 pm

I really think someone has to put a book together on this mystery. Even though there may be a limited number of "gear heads" in the world, I still think it would be marketable for the average reader.

I really believe that it is the mystery of the jacket and Fedora in Raiders that is responsible for this sites creation. The mystery created an obsession, and the obsession resulted in the founders of this hobby to take it upon themselves to source out the truth and in some cases have their own prototypes created. I have never heard of any other movie creating such an interest or continual effort to uncover the specs and design of a costume.

I'd love to read that book. ####, I may even write it myself. lol

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:29 pm

JPdesign wrote:In all my reading for the 8 years I have researching this I have never once heard of one specific piece of information being taken into consideration. This one factor can explain almost every strange thing about the hat in Raiders.

The sweatband and ribbon both seem to often be raise higher. The brim has a strange shape. The crown looks exessively tall, taller then the reported 5 1/2 inches.

When you strech a hat a size or more you are pushing the sides of the crown out. The outside edge of the brim, along with most of the rest of the brim, stays the same, it doesn't stretch. The inside of the brim is pused out and becomes part of the crown. This is below the ribbon and band line. If you look at the cairo picture above you can see this. When the stretching is not done evenly the brim gets pushed out of shape. The film crew probably didn't haul brim flanges to tunisia.

Stetching also causes the sweat band to be pushed tight against the crown of the hat. If you steam too much then this can create a line in the felt at the top edge of the sweat band, where the felt dips in.

Now, if you are wandering about the reason for this drastic stretching, here it comes.

are you ready?

Ford wears a 7 1/4, I have called to check his size with his service. If you call a british company and order a 7 1/4 with no other instructions, you will recieve a british 7 1/4, which is a US 7 1/8. The hats came in too small, so the had to be modified to fit.

The production crew probably thought it was a fortuitous mistake, because the hat would look more beat up after the stretching.

I have built a couple of hats on this theory and they come out looking pretty good.

Jimmy

THANK YOU ! this is good info,do you have any pictures of the hats?

bleyd · Post by **bleyd** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:47 pm

So much information to soak in. This is great stuff and to think my parents or my ex used to poke fun that I was never happy with a "close enough" fedora. Keep up with the good reading.

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:47 pm

erri_wan wrote:This is my "short" indy hat...

It wasn't meant to be but I'm glad a have a hat that is shorter than 5 1/2 because it looks bloody good LOL and I think it's not far at all from screen accuracy

What hat is that?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:21 am

AB beaver

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:44 am

3Thou, what is the crown height of the Bushman

5 1/2 inches, and I've had 4 of 'em. The latest one I bought from DM, which you haven't seen, seems to have been at the bottom of a stack, and is thus a tighter fit with a taller, 5 5/8 crown . --- I lower the front of the crowns of my hats, trasitioning the crown into brim, because it looks to me, like that was done to the Raiders hat. . viewtopic.php?t=19744&highlight= .......................... Dr. D.N.L. said this in her new book.

- "The fedora was one that I designed, based on an Australian model" ..... "Lowering the crown and shortening the brim suited Harrison's long face..."

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:35 am

Ford wears a 7 1/4, I have called to check his size with his service.

Not quite JPD. He lies between off the shelf sizing. He is larger than a standard 7 1/4. But this would only add to your side of the argument.

So, we have to assume then, that with the Raiders fedora, they had to stretch the hat out to fit, but for ToD and TLC this was not needed, and those hats appear to be better fitting with no stretching needed.

Think about this. In the behind the scenes shots of Raiders, he fakes stapling his hat to his head because it kept coming off while riding the horse. Now, please, if anyone here owns a horse and a ABHJ from Magnoli, get on the steed, tug your hat down and see if it blows off. Mine doesn't. The brim of the film hat and the ABHJ is so floppy, it might blow down in your face, or upward, but the hat if pulled down to where it is tight stays on pretty darn good. So, for that hat to keep coming off tells me the hat was not overly tight, in fact, it tells me just the opposite.

For the new film, the samples we sent were between two hat sizes, and the hats were according to Ford, a bit tight. But, the costumer immediately told him, that it might need to be just a bit tight to keep it on during the action scenes, and they went with the slighty tight fit. I can assure you, this was not a 7 1/4 sized hat.

Also, after viewing all of our local surveyors study of the crown height, the hat really is not that tall. It varies a little bit, as different hats were used, but it was never more than 5 1/2 open crown. And as Tone mentioned, the SOC hat may very well have been 5 1/4 effectively, although this was due to some work done on the hat by the costumer. After seeing my 5 3/4 crowned hats on some of my customers a couple of years ago, I dropped down the crown heights, as no one looked "right" with that taller crown. This was a shock to me as I had assumed the hat was indeed taller than 5 1/2. But pictures don't lie. Fedora

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 am

Fedora wrote:
Ford wears a 7 1/4, I have called to check his size with his service.
Not quite JPD. He lies between off the shelf sizing. He is larger than a standard 7 1/4. But this would only add to your side of the argument.

So, we have to assume then, that with the Raiders fedora, they had to stretch the hat out to fit, but for ToD and TLC this was not needed, and those hats appear to be better fitting with no stretching needed.

Think about this. In the behind the scenes shots of Raiders, he fakes stapling his hat to his head because it kept coming off while riding the horse. Now, please, if anyone here owns a horse and a ABHJ from Magnoli, get on the steed, tug your hat down and see if it blows off. Mine doesn't. The brim of the film hat and the ABHJ is so floppy, it might blow down in your face, or upward, but the hat if pulled down to where it is tight stays on pretty darn good. So, for that hat to keep coming off tells me the hat was not overly tight, in fact, it tells me just the opposite.

For the new film, the samples we sent were between two hat sizes, and the hats were according to Ford, a bit tight. But, the costumer immediately told him, that it might need to be just a bit tight to keep it on during the action scenes, and they went with the slighty tight fit. I can assure you, this was not a 7 1/4 sized hat.

Also, after viewing all of our local surveyors study of the crown height, the hat really is not that tall. It varies a little bit, as different hats were used, but it was never more than 5 1/2 open crown. And as Tone mentioned, the SOC hat may very well have been 5 1/4 effectively, although this was due to some work done on the hat by the costumer. After seeing my 5 3/4 crowned hats on some of my customers a couple of years ago, I dropped down the crown heights, as no one looked "right" with that taller crown. This was a shock to me as I had assumed the hat was indeed taller than 5 1/2. But pictures don't lie. Fedora

Actually thats the behind the scenes from LC we're talking raiders here, and I see Ford putting on his hat in the making of raiders with much effort that would only proof what Jimmy posted up above! Meaning the hat was too small.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:25 pm

Actually thats the behind the scenes from LC we're talking raiders here, and I see Ford putting on his hat in the making of raiders with much effort that would only proof what Jimmy posted up above! Meaning the hat was too small.

Oops, I think you are right. I got my behind the scenes confused I guess.

Since Ford lies between off the shelf sizing, he is not a 7 1/4 as has been stated for years. But this is confusing too. When they fitted Harrison for Raiders, WHY would Deborah buy HJs that were too small? I mean, her job was to fit Ford, like Bernie did. Is there anyone here who actually thinks that she would not have fitted him with the hat she planned on using? I could see her moving up to the next size, as a larger hat can be padded to fit if need be, but I don't know of anyone who would buy hats for him that were too small. So, if the hats WERE too small, this was an error by HJ, I would think. Surely she would not neglect her duties as a costumer. That makes no sense.

The fedora was one that I designed, based on an Australian model" ..... "Lowering the crown and shortening the brim suited Harrison's long face..."

So, the Raiders fedora was actually her design. That is, she took a taller hat, and one with a too large brim and shortened the crown, and brim. Now, when she says she did this, does she mean she actually did it, or she had it done by Swales? I would lean toward the latter, since he was the hatter. Pardon my poetry.

Now, she either shortened the crown and brim, or Swales did it. Do you know what is involved in this? I do. But I don't see the old brim break line on the brim in any of the scenes. If the brim break was moved, there should be the telltale sign of doing so. That is, there should be a light line at least 1/4 of an inch from the crown, running around the top and bottom of the brim. But I can't see it. So I have to assume she shortened the crown by NOT creating a new brim break, which means the crown must have been simply shrunk up in height. Or a fuller block was used which would take a taller tapered hat and turn it into a shorter, squarer crowned hat. Or she could have simply moved the sweat up inside the hat as was mentioned for the SOC fedora. But all film hats do not have the same look of the SOC hat. That hat looks like something is going on with the sweat, or lack of a sweat, etc.

Since I see a noticable difference between the Raiders fedora and what followed, and all were supposed to be based upon the Poet, according to Swales, SOMETHING must have been done to the crown, like a reblock.

The current Poets come with a 5 3/4 crown. The Raiders and LC fedora look to be shorter than this, so did Tony Powell shorten crown heights as well? From the looks of the LC hat, it still has the factory HJ bow, unlike the Raiders fedora, so this tells me the LC hat was fresh from the factory. With no mods. But it is a 5 1/2 crowned hat, while the new HJs are 5 3/4!

I have personally seen HJs from Swales that ran from 5 inches open crown up to 6. What gives? I don't think we will ever know.

But as I said, I just can't see the costumer buying hats that were too small for Harrison, UNLESS HJ made the error. That just makes no sense at all. If she took that time in designing this hat, you can be sure that she had the size for Indy correct. I mean, that is the first thing you do. It makes more sense that she bought them larger than smaller since Ford is between sizes.

Personally speaking, I have never seen a sweatband actually grow, but I have seen many shrink. Leather tends to shrink when sweated in because in the drying phase shrinkage occurs. Every hat I have ever owned, regardless of brand always shrunk with wear and sweat. Some of this stuff is not making sense to me, as a hatter. It goes against the laws and nature of felt and leather. Perhaps HJ used synthetic leather for the sweats? Nah, I don't buy that. I have never seen an HJ with a fake leather sweat. Low quality split cowhide yes, but fake ones, no. Fedora

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:35 pm

I am surprised to see that the pics of the shorter crown heights don't look too bad.

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:26 pm

fascinating debate and theorizing, but none of it helps me find a hat that will look right on me!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:38 pm

DrClemente wrote:Now that is a nice lid, citRon. It looks great on you even if it is wool model. You can have one made from rabbit or beaver felt using the same specs and you're all set.

Actually, someone DID reply to that concern, my friend, and I agree. I don't see anything that can be changed that would make it any better. The brim width looks good for your face shape, and the height is perfect. Anything taller would not work.

You might want to have one made with just a little less taper, but even that isn't a 'have to' in this case. I believe you already have the 'standard' to start out having a good blend or beaver hat made from for your face and head shape.

That's probably another reason the discussion kind of wandered far afield. How (or why) should you 'correct' something that ain't broke?

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:12 pm

I just realized something. When Swales quoted Harrison's hat size as a 7 1/4 he was giving UK sizing. That translates into a 7 3/8 US sizing. I think no one ever thought about his over the years and just took him to mean a US 7 1/4. So Michaelson, you share hat sizes with Ford.

And I don't.

But at least I KNOW he can wear my in between size, but just a bit tight.

Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:22 pm

I have heard that before, old friend.

How many times have I posted that I automatically get the 'swoop' of the brim when I put on these fedoras that everyone works so hard to achieve? It happens when you shove a size 7 3/8 long oval head into a roundish crowned hat, of course!

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:27 pm

Well since we have gone off topic, here is a chart from online showing the US and UK sizing.

Hat Measuring Chart

32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54
S M L XL XXL
US 65/8 63/4 67/8 7 71/8 71/4 73/8 71/2 75/8 73/4 77/8 8
UK 61/2 65/8 63/4 67/8 7 71/8 71/4 73/8 71/2 75/8 73/4 77/8
CM 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64
Inches 203/4 211/4 215/8 22 221/2 223/4 231/4 235/8 24 241/2 243/4 251/4

You can see where a UK size 7 1/4 is equal to a 7 3/8 US size. But like many hat sizing charts there is an inconsistency if you look at the head circumference for a given size. A 7 3/8 US size is generally fitted to a 23 inch head, and not the 22 1/2 as given on the above chart. And that is why I use head measurments only when making hats. The charts don't agree with one another, depending upon the hatter or brand.

Here this one is easier read.

Hat Size Conversion Chart
British (inch) U.S. (inch) European (cm)
6 5/8 6 3/4 54
6 3/4 6 7/8 55
6 7/8 7 56
7 7 1/8 57
7 1/8 7 1/4 58
7 1/4 7 3/8 59
7 3/8 7 1/2 60
7 1/2 7 5/8 61
7 5/8 7 3/4 62
7 3/4 7 7/8 63
7 7/8 8 64

Kokopelli · Post by **Kokopelli** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:
DrClemente wrote:Now that is a nice lid, citRon. It looks great on you even if it is wool model. You can have one made from rabbit or beaver felt using the same specs and you're all set.
Actually, someone DID reply to that concern, my friend, and I agree. I don't see anything that can be changed that would make it any better. The brim width looks good for your face shape, and the height is perfect. Anything taller would not work.

You might want to have one made with just a little less taper, but even that isn't a 'have to' in this case. I believe you already have the 'standard' to start out having a good blend or beaver hat made from for your face and head shape.

That's probably another reason the discussion kind of wandered far afield. How (or why) should you 'correct' something that ain't broke?

Thank you
Regards! Michaelson

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:25 pm

Fedora said-

But I don't see the old brim break line on the brim in any of the scenes. If the brim break was moved, there should be the telltale sign of doing so.

It's clearly visible. That line isn't just a gap under the ribbon. It's out on the brim. The second picture proves that.

As you can see, the crown of my hat is lowered a 1/4 inch in the front. The sweat was moved up a 1/4 inch inside the front portion of the hat and resewn. Then all I did was wet the felt at the transition, flip up the brim, and let it dry. The new transition is very gradual, like the Raiders hat. (Note: Bushman sweats are sewn in right at the transition line. I left the nonfunctional stitches in, just so you could see old transition line. )

hp · Post by hp » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:28 am

Aeris_Canon wrote:Yeah, once you see it, it stands out. There is a brim line on the hat (for the Cairo). It doesn't seem to be on the actual "Raiders" hat throughout the film, though.

But the Cairo underwent some mussing and the sides still remained nice and straight even when shortened. This ol thing, for example:

I don't think she shortened all of them but I am pretty certain your "what's going on with the Cairo hat brim" theory is on target.

Which means a whole lot of fuss now for a really, really accurate Cairo.

For me, the question is: Did they (costumer, Nadoolman, Speilberg, who ever...) do these modifications (lower the crown, iron the crown into brim, re-position sweat and ribbon, etc.) on purpose?
And if so, why did they do it for the SOC scenes?
I mean, the SOC hat looks so differently to all other scenes - but why?

Cheers
HP

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:01 pm

It's clearly visible. That line isn't just a gap under the ribbon. It's out on the brim. The second picture proves that

I see what you see. But this is nothing more than the brim break relaxing and the ribbon sliding upwards. And it is mostly seen on the front of the hat, not 360. If someone had put a new brim break in to decrease the height, that line would be farther outward on the brim, and it would run evenly all the way around the hat, like a concentric circle. The little bit that we see on this hat is clearly attributed to what I mentioned above. To validate this, take one of your hats, and decrease the height of the hat by 1/4 and inch by creating a new brim break(no easy feat by the way as you may find out) and then compare that to the pics you posted. I think you will see the difference I am speaking of.

Also, if you take a soft felt hat and install a flanged sweat with well above the brim break stitching, you CAN end up with this same look as you illustrated above with those pics. HJ used to use flanged sweats, but no longer. They forgot that you are supposed to flange reeded sweats apparently.

In my own hatmaking I have discovered that if you stitch in a reeded sweat by going almost 1/4 an inch up the hat as the point of stitch placement, that is, to keep the stitches from being seen if the ribbon slides up, you can also get this look. It causes the soft felt hat to flare out just like you see in the above pics. This flared out portion of the hat makes the ribbon slide upwards, and is not desirable in a regular fedora. In fact, it is seen as poor workmanship by hatters. But with the Indy community, you can do this and make folks happy.

I do it all the time.

But, of course relocating the point of placement of the stitches that secure the sweat to the hat solves the problem.

This may seem technical, and I doubt anyone but the hatters here will know what I am talking about, but I had to throw it out there. The manner that a sweat is installed can really affect that brim break. If you will notice, TLC hat had the HJ factory stitching at the brim break, or just a hair above it, while the Raiders fedora was stiched higher up, the way that Marc and I do ours. But if you buy an older HJ, you will not see the really low stitches. They changed the way that they attached sweats at some point in time, along with forgetting to flange the reeded sweats. I have to assume the Raiders fedora was like the older HJs you see around ebay from time to time.

I can look at that second pic and can see where the reeded side of the sweat is, and where it ends on the top side of the sweat. The top edge of the sweat is clearily outlined by the soft felt. It starts way down below the ribbon where you see the relaxed brim break. And this stands out pretty well to me. I guess it stands out because I can replicate that and was part of the learning process of installing a sweat. I am surprised that you have not experienced this 3M$. Have you reinstalled reeded sweats in your hat projects? If not, you might want to give it a go on a soft felt hat. A stiffer hat would not yield the results I am talking about. The felt has to be soft enough to move. Here is how to do it if you have not tried it.

Once you remove the sweat, lay the hat on its brim. Take a pencil to use as a space, and scribe a chalk line all the way around the hat. You will end up with a line about 1/4 an inch above the brim break that extends all the way around the hat. Tack the sweat in with your temporary stitches, by sewing between the reed and the leather sweat. Now, turn the sweat out, or downward.

Now, when you put in the permanent stitches, hit this chalk line with each stitch. On the plastic reed tape that you will be sewing through on the inside of the sweat, make sure your needle sews through where the plastic meets the leather, or just a hair below the leather. Once the permanent stitches are in, turn the sweat back inside the hat, and take out the temporary stitches. Examine what happened to the nice 90 degree brim break that you used to have before installing the sweat. You might be surprised and enlightend, and we may get back on the same page.

Regards, Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:00 pm

Remnant line of the old brim, though. Set in from where the hat started and stayed before being altered. Where the old sweatband used to be on the inside

Can't argue against it, unless we could see the underside of the hat.

But if that is what Deborah said that she had done, I think we would be foolish NOT to believe her. If we are conjecturing, the argument can fall flat on its face. It ain't necessarily so is what I am saying. I am assuming that she made statements in her book that backs up the argument? If so what other things about this fedora did she throw some new light on? Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:27 pm

This illustrates the lost brim break. This is my HJ. Sorry for the orange coloring.

If you look down about 3/16ths from the bottom of the ribbon, you will hopefully see a line. That line is the bottom of the sweatband, and the original brim break from the factory. This drooping occured due to the way I sewed in the sweat, and the super softness of this Magnoli HJ felt. Fedora

Johnny Fedora · Post by **Johnny Fedora** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:27 pm

Fedora wrote: I am assuming that she made statements in her book that backs up the argument? If so what other things about this fedora did she throw some new light on? Fedora

Does she actually refer to the Raiders' fedora in a book? Is this the Hollywood Costuming Book? How in depth does she go?

Johnny

Dr.Seuss · Post by **Dr.Seuss** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:22 pm

Fedora wrote:* *Now I got a brand new one for you guys. I sold a hat to a film prop collector who had some actual film used gear and props. He told me that the original Raiders fedora was actually 6 1/4 open crown, and they actually doctored the entire film to make the hat appear the way that it does. Fedora

I, rest my case.

Sincerely,

Anybody have a custom made with a lower crown- 5- 5 1/4 inch

Anybody have a custom made with a lower crown- 5- 5 1/4 inch

I was also wondering this.

Re: Anybody have a custom made with a lower crown- 5- 5 1/4

hat

hmm interesting..