Hi all indy fans!
I've been wondering what is the correct taper for the whip thong?
Straight, convex or concave?
If the acceleration is dependent of reduction of mass/diameter of the thong, think that a straight or a convex taper should be best.
If the taper is concave the acceleration should lessen the farther the loop travels because the taper would be less futher on.
A straight taper would give a even acceleration through out the whole length of the thong.
And a convex taper should increase the acceleration.
If we compare the taper to horn speakers then an inverted hyperbole taper should be optimal...?
But thenagain if the diameter is not in it self the base of the acceleration but the mass, a shotloading or leadtape would give the appropriate mass increase near the handle. And the weight distribution through out the thong be like the inverted hyperbole curve.
I'm myself a begginner in whip makeing so I've got lots of thoughts around the anatomy of the whip.
I'm makeing my first Indyesque whip based on the tutorial from EM brand Whips combined with the pictures of the "whats inside of a bullwhip" on the same site. I'll mix it whit my own ideas and tips and trix from this forum... I'll post some pictures when it's done, or I could post some during allso if you want...
All the best
TH
Taper of the thong
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winrichwhips
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Based on the whips I like to crack, I think a concave taper is best. The whip should have most of it's weight in the handle, and then it should taper faster off the handle, and then taper slower towards the point.
If you think of the way Morgan does his bellies in his bullwhips, using a 1/4 length 1st belly and then a 1/2 length second belly, he's setting the whip up to have a concave taper.
-Adam
If you think of the way Morgan does his bellies in his bullwhips, using a 1/4 length 1st belly and then a 1/2 length second belly, he's setting the whip up to have a concave taper.
-Adam
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winrichwhips
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In Morgan's whips, the taper of the second half of the whip is determined by the dropped strands from the overlay, the tapering of the bolster, and the tapering of the strands extending from the end of the second belly. So there is still some taper in the second half of the whip, but not as much as in the first half.
I think you'd want more of a hyperbola than an exponential curve, though I don't think you'd want the tapering to be as severe as it is in either of those curves.
You could approximate a smooth taper with two different straight tapers. If it's an 8 ft whip, just have the first two feet have a straight taper that tapers down a little faster than the taper used for the rest of the whip.
The main thing would be to take notes on how you build the insides of your whips, and adjust the length and taper of the core, bellies and bolsters until you get a whip that cracks the way you think a whip should crack.
-Adam
I think you'd want more of a hyperbola than an exponential curve, though I don't think you'd want the tapering to be as severe as it is in either of those curves.
You could approximate a smooth taper with two different straight tapers. If it's an 8 ft whip, just have the first two feet have a straight taper that tapers down a little faster than the taper used for the rest of the whip.
The main thing would be to take notes on how you build the insides of your whips, and adjust the length and taper of the core, bellies and bolsters until you get a whip that cracks the way you think a whip should crack.
-Adam
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Renderking Fisk
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Winrich:
I'll try that. I'm going for a 10' whip now that I've made some shorter ones (3', 4' 8' bullwhips and a 6' stock whip)
Render:
Lol... I was waiting for somone to notice the not so great topic line.
Didn't even think about it before it was too late...
It would help if there was measurements of the taper.
If there is someone kind Morgan-whip owner that could measure the diameter every feet starting at the transitionknot between handel and thong all the way to the fall knot.
Even better, if there is an extreme geek like me that would have the stamina to measure the diameter at every inch, I would be in eternal awe and gratitude.
Propably the every one inch diameter measurements are most illuminating the first three four feets. After that I think the taper evens out so much that it don't give any big surprises.
If there is a brave soul to accept this task measurements should be only on the strands and never between them, and two measurements at each location. It seldom is a perfect circle in diameter and finding the highest and lowest measurement and averaging between them gives the theoritically perfect circle diameter(as long as the diameter don't have a triangular shape.)
And as an extra interresting task... How much of a "bump" strand dropping gives to the taper... In my work i measure components and by enlarging the deviation we get to see realy interresting shapes in things that looks perfectly round for the naked eye.
If the accuracy of the taper is critical for the whips performance in the same degree as in horns in speakers it really is interresting to have some numbers to put in an arc plot.
Hope I'm not too geeky about things that maybe dont matter as much as it is interresting...
Oh, by the way I made an excell sheet for keeping track of the tapering on my 3 feet bullwhip. I can share it if there is interrested here...
Unfortunately its based on a straight taper and a mix between metric and inches... (whip length in inches and whip radius in millimeters)
It is interresting to see how the different layers builds upp the whip.
All the best
TH
I'll try that. I'm going for a 10' whip now that I've made some shorter ones (3', 4' 8' bullwhips and a 6' stock whip)
Render:
Lol... I was waiting for somone to notice the not so great topic line.
Didn't even think about it before it was too late...
It would help if there was measurements of the taper.
If there is someone kind Morgan-whip owner that could measure the diameter every feet starting at the transitionknot between handel and thong all the way to the fall knot.
Even better, if there is an extreme geek like me that would have the stamina to measure the diameter at every inch, I would be in eternal awe and gratitude.
Propably the every one inch diameter measurements are most illuminating the first three four feets. After that I think the taper evens out so much that it don't give any big surprises.
If there is a brave soul to accept this task measurements should be only on the strands and never between them, and two measurements at each location. It seldom is a perfect circle in diameter and finding the highest and lowest measurement and averaging between them gives the theoritically perfect circle diameter(as long as the diameter don't have a triangular shape.)
And as an extra interresting task... How much of a "bump" strand dropping gives to the taper... In my work i measure components and by enlarging the deviation we get to see realy interresting shapes in things that looks perfectly round for the naked eye.
If the accuracy of the taper is critical for the whips performance in the same degree as in horns in speakers it really is interresting to have some numbers to put in an arc plot.
Hope I'm not too geeky about things that maybe dont matter as much as it is interresting...
Oh, by the way I made an excell sheet for keeping track of the tapering on my 3 feet bullwhip. I can share it if there is interrested here...
Unfortunately its based on a straight taper and a mix between metric and inches... (whip length in inches and whip radius in millimeters)
It is interresting to see how the different layers builds upp the whip.
All the best
TH
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midwestwhips
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munakuppi,
With the small amount of details that I know about how Morgan makes his whips, I think you would find it not all that productive to get the measurements inch by inch on one whip. All whips vary a bit, even if made by the same whipmaker, due to the natural variance in leather. To me one of the things that make a great whipmaker is that they are able to account for this variance on the fly while making the whip, almost subconsciously.
Lately, I have been thinking a lot about what small bits that I know about how Morgan makes his whips, and thought that you might find my thoughts interesting. His methods seem to be very much based on logical construction methods regarding the taper, as well as being economically minded with his use of time and leather. I have been playing with what I know of this method of construction which, while being similar to my normal(as well as other whipmaker's) methods, is somewhat different and simplistic. In fact, just last night I finished up a 6 foot Indy based on this construction method. Here is the rundown of how I made the 6 foot, and keep in mind how this diminishes the taper over the length of the 6 foot whip:
The first thing I did was cover the handle with "wear leather" extends roughly 4 inches past the 8 inch handle.(So the first major taper of the thong off of the handle comes at the 1 foot mark)
I then made the core about 18 inches long from the tip of the 8 inch handle(2 piece rolled into each other). Add the 18 inches with the length of the handle and the tip of the core should be around 24-26 inches long overall.
Then I started the belly with a yoke that covers the first 6 1/2 inches or so of the handle, and the braiding starts at about the 6 1/2 mark, and the belly is braided to the end of the core. I think this method is very common between all Indy style whipmakers, at least as far as I know. This would be where the next major taper happens at the 2 foot mark. So far the interior parts diminish the most at the 1 foot and 2 foot mark.
Then I cut first bolster to about 2 1/2 foot long or so and it only covers the braided part of the belly, and not the yoke. So full length of the whip so far with the bolster and belly strands and everything ending at about 3 foot.
Then the Second belly (starting the same way as the first belly with the yoke) was braided to the 3 foot mark. So now you have the main taper points at 1 foot, 2 foot, and 3 foot.
I then put the second bolster over the full length of the handle and it extends to 4 and a half feet long. At this point the entire whip is 4 1/2 foot long. So the main taper points are 1 foot, 2 foot, and 3 foot, and 4 1/2 foot.
With the overlay it is a general thing between all of the top Indy style whip makers to braid the 12 plait to half the length of the finished whip. So I cut the overlay to taper for the first 3 feet on this whip. from then on, you use the dropping of strands to shape the taper, as well as keep the strands from bunching too much. When you hit the 3 foot mark where the 2nd belly braiding stops then there is a drop in diameter in the belly of the whip, and that is where you drop 2 strands into the belly taking place of part of that drop in belly diameter. And you use those 2 dropped strands to shape the taper to the next drop point, and continue that tapering dropping method to the end. This is pretty common for most whipmakers as well.
The biggest differences between my method, and this method of construction are: 1) I don't normally use the wear leather, instead I bind the transition tightly. 2) my plaited belly strands usually run longer and past the lengths of the bolsters. 3) my bolsters tend to be longer.
After making Indy whips using both construction techniques I think that the way I construct them makes a finer indy whip, and this method makes a slightly thicker/heavier Indy style whip. I don't think I would use this method to make any higher plait fancier non indy bullwhips, but this method works extremely well for the indy whip. I also really like the simplicity of how the Construction works. I am figuring on offering either construction method and letting the customer choose.
Also, I plan on doing another 8 foot next in this Construction method, and I plan on taking pictures of the construction. Here is a link to the previous 8 foot Indy whip I made using this Construction method:
viewtopic.php?t=23237
Well I've rambled for quite a bit. I hope this helps. If you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
With the small amount of details that I know about how Morgan makes his whips, I think you would find it not all that productive to get the measurements inch by inch on one whip. All whips vary a bit, even if made by the same whipmaker, due to the natural variance in leather. To me one of the things that make a great whipmaker is that they are able to account for this variance on the fly while making the whip, almost subconsciously.
Lately, I have been thinking a lot about what small bits that I know about how Morgan makes his whips, and thought that you might find my thoughts interesting. His methods seem to be very much based on logical construction methods regarding the taper, as well as being economically minded with his use of time and leather. I have been playing with what I know of this method of construction which, while being similar to my normal(as well as other whipmaker's) methods, is somewhat different and simplistic. In fact, just last night I finished up a 6 foot Indy based on this construction method. Here is the rundown of how I made the 6 foot, and keep in mind how this diminishes the taper over the length of the 6 foot whip:
The first thing I did was cover the handle with "wear leather" extends roughly 4 inches past the 8 inch handle.(So the first major taper of the thong off of the handle comes at the 1 foot mark)
I then made the core about 18 inches long from the tip of the 8 inch handle(2 piece rolled into each other). Add the 18 inches with the length of the handle and the tip of the core should be around 24-26 inches long overall.
Then I started the belly with a yoke that covers the first 6 1/2 inches or so of the handle, and the braiding starts at about the 6 1/2 mark, and the belly is braided to the end of the core. I think this method is very common between all Indy style whipmakers, at least as far as I know. This would be where the next major taper happens at the 2 foot mark. So far the interior parts diminish the most at the 1 foot and 2 foot mark.
Then I cut first bolster to about 2 1/2 foot long or so and it only covers the braided part of the belly, and not the yoke. So full length of the whip so far with the bolster and belly strands and everything ending at about 3 foot.
Then the Second belly (starting the same way as the first belly with the yoke) was braided to the 3 foot mark. So now you have the main taper points at 1 foot, 2 foot, and 3 foot.
I then put the second bolster over the full length of the handle and it extends to 4 and a half feet long. At this point the entire whip is 4 1/2 foot long. So the main taper points are 1 foot, 2 foot, and 3 foot, and 4 1/2 foot.
With the overlay it is a general thing between all of the top Indy style whip makers to braid the 12 plait to half the length of the finished whip. So I cut the overlay to taper for the first 3 feet on this whip. from then on, you use the dropping of strands to shape the taper, as well as keep the strands from bunching too much. When you hit the 3 foot mark where the 2nd belly braiding stops then there is a drop in diameter in the belly of the whip, and that is where you drop 2 strands into the belly taking place of part of that drop in belly diameter. And you use those 2 dropped strands to shape the taper to the next drop point, and continue that tapering dropping method to the end. This is pretty common for most whipmakers as well.
The biggest differences between my method, and this method of construction are: 1) I don't normally use the wear leather, instead I bind the transition tightly. 2) my plaited belly strands usually run longer and past the lengths of the bolsters. 3) my bolsters tend to be longer.
After making Indy whips using both construction techniques I think that the way I construct them makes a finer indy whip, and this method makes a slightly thicker/heavier Indy style whip. I don't think I would use this method to make any higher plait fancier non indy bullwhips, but this method works extremely well for the indy whip. I also really like the simplicity of how the Construction works. I am figuring on offering either construction method and letting the customer choose.
Also, I plan on doing another 8 foot next in this Construction method, and I plan on taking pictures of the construction. Here is a link to the previous 8 foot Indy whip I made using this Construction method:
viewtopic.php?t=23237
Well I've rambled for quite a bit. I hope this helps. If you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
Last edited by midwestwhips on Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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midwestwhips
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Hi Jim,
I am glad this helps you see it in your head. It is something, as I said before has been going through my head for quite some time now.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
I am glad this helps you see it in your head. It is something, as I said before has been going through my head for quite some time now.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
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midwestwhips
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I would also like to expand and clarify some things, including my original point. I think one of the most important things to know and keep in mind when starting in whipmaking is that it is not an exact science, you can't use a bulldozer to find a china.....(sorry, bad joke, 
I just watched Raiders again the other night. 
) But to the point, there is no magic specific measurements that will make the whip come together with a perfect taper etc... It is very much based on experience and experimentation. Also, different types of whips require different weight distribution, and a different sorts of taper. Almost every time, you cut with the expectation that you will be adjusting for taper on the fly. And the ability to adjust on the fly and get a correct taper and a smooth cracking whip is what makes a good whipmaker.
So, Just start making whips and trying anything you can think of, and you will quickly learn what works best for you. And with that experience you will learn what truly makes a good whip. BE WARNED: IT IS NOT AN EASY JOURNEY! It takes a lot of your time, money, and patience, but there is always help along the way. ;-)
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
I just watched Raiders again the other night. ) But to the point, there is no magic specific measurements that will make the whip come together with a perfect taper etc... It is very much based on experience and experimentation. Also, different types of whips require different weight distribution, and a different sorts of taper. Almost every time, you cut with the expectation that you will be adjusting for taper on the fly. And the ability to adjust on the fly and get a correct taper and a smooth cracking whip is what makes a good whipmaker.So, Just start making whips and trying anything you can think of, and you will quickly learn what works best for you. And with that experience you will learn what truly makes a good whip. BE WARNED: IT IS NOT AN EASY JOURNEY! It takes a lot of your time, money, and patience, but there is always help along the way. ;-)
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.midwestwhips.com
Hi Paul
Sorry for the delay. I've been working graveyard-shift so I haven't been fully present in my mind...
Thanks for the great pointers. It will take me some re reads and thinking to realy melt and understand it all...
To cut strands and adjust them on the fly, well that is a quite bit ahead for me yet. I'm still in cut-stretch-adjust phase of my cutting. Oh man how it creates a lot of waste.
About the whipmakeing not being an exact science... the only thing that i can think of being the density of the hide that differs. The stretch and thicknes is easily adjusted by first streching and then splitting.
I got my splitter only couple a months a go and what a difference it makes. Alot of bumps and kinks are reduced from the start.
The weight distribution and taper comes down to taste. But one thing I think is that the taper and weight distr. should be different depending on the length of the whip. If the taper would bee the same, the handle would be quite thick in longer whips and get so heavy that it would be very unpleasent to use.
Sorry for the delay. I've been working graveyard-shift so I haven't been fully present in my mind...
Thanks for the great pointers. It will take me some re reads and thinking to realy melt and understand it all...
To cut strands and adjust them on the fly, well that is a quite bit ahead for me yet. I'm still in cut-stretch-adjust phase of my cutting. Oh man how it creates a lot of waste.
About the whipmakeing not being an exact science... the only thing that i can think of being the density of the hide that differs. The stretch and thicknes is easily adjusted by first streching and then splitting.
I got my splitter only couple a months a go and what a difference it makes. Alot of bumps and kinks are reduced from the start.
The weight distribution and taper comes down to taste. But one thing I think is that the taper and weight distr. should be different depending on the length of the whip. If the taper would bee the same, the handle would be quite thick in longer whips and get so heavy that it would be very unpleasent to use.
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winrichwhips
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A longer whip will have a slower taper than a shorter whip, that's for sure. Building shorter whips can teach a lot about tapering as there's less room for error in the taper.
When you get to whips 20' long or longer, I think the actually shape of the taper should also be different. When I made and cracked the 216 ft whip, the first 100 ft of the whip had no taper at all. I repaired an 18' bullwhip this past summer and it didn't have much of a taper for the first half of its length.
-Adam
When you get to whips 20' long or longer, I think the actually shape of the taper should also be different. When I made and cracked the 216 ft whip, the first 100 ft of the whip had no taper at all. I repaired an 18' bullwhip this past summer and it didn't have much of a taper for the first half of its length.
-Adam
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Jaredraptor
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216 feet? Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang......-
winrichwhips
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Jaredraptor
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Hm.....better ask for that for Christmas. but 140 feet is still pretty darn long.winrichwhips wrote:Sadly, the 216 ft whip doesn't exist anymore in its entire length; it's been down-sized to 140 ft. It made it into the 2008 Guinness Book of World Records as the longest whip ever cracked, see pg. 261.
-Adam