The REAL new Indy Gun...

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:52 pm

Per photos I just saw on the Lounge, it's the Webley.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... post453380

VP · Post by VP » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:48 am

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?t=24822

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:02 am

Oh, THAT thread...

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:51 am

It is definately a Webley WG. You can easily tell by the fact that the cylinder and the cylinder flutes are longer than a Mark VI and you can easilly see the pivot screw and the long flat area directly in front of the trigger gaurd. Only the Webley WG has those features.

That's great for me as I just purchased a Webley WG yesterday!! I should be getting it next week and I will post photos. In the mean time you can see the Webley WG I just purchased at:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... m=85333462

I can't wait to get it in my hands as I've been looking for one for more than a year! Let me know what you all think!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:12 am

I've gone on record for many years of not been especially fond of a Webley. I've owned two in my lifetime. Too heavy, not particularily accurate, though built like a Mack truck. They were absolutely the prefect weapon for the task they were made to be used for....a battlefield side arm for last resort, and once you ran out of ammo, the perfect club. It has nothing to bow down to, as it proved itself in battlefield conditions for decades protecting the soldiers of the British Empire.

That said, the birdshead Webley has ALWAYS been one of my favorite revolver frame outlines. Reminds me of the old Colt Lightning .44 double action revolver, favored by Billy the Kid....though the Colt was a LOT smaller than this monster Webley.

Regards! Michaelson

dr. tyree · Post by **dr. tyree** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:30 am

Whew -- thanks for keeping me from buying that; I was looking hard yesterday...

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:57 pm

Michaelson, Yes I agree. It's big, not very accurate, and almost impossible to get ammo. But as a firearms collector myself, I didn't buy it to be shooting it or carrying it. It is strickly a collectors item and a great and authentic piece to add to my Indy collection. We all know how much we all are sticklers to authenticity when it comes to Indy gear and, with the release of that new photo a few days ago, we can finally put to rest the issue of "what webley".

The Webley Mark VI is great gun to have for any Indy collection but we now know it is only a substitute for the real thing - the Webly WG!

Finding and purchasing the Webley WG was my "Holy Grail". It will be the "diamond" in my Indy collection, and I'm very proud to finally own one!!

If anyone is interested I will be posting photos once I receive it next week. If anyone has questions about the WG's use in the LC I will try to answer them as best I can as I have viewed every frame of LC where the Webley WG can be seen.

I'm really curious to hear what the rest of you may have to say, so let's get a good discussion rolling!!

Thanks!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm

I'm pleased you found one. Reminds of my old friend whipwarrior who searched for one forever, and FINALLY located one! You could hear him dancing in the streets clear up where I live!

I buy guns to shoot and carry. I don't purchase to 'collect' per-se, but I totally understand where you're coming from, and salute you for staying the course!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:06 pm

Thank you Michaelson!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:07 pm

Thank YOU for sharing your new acquisition with us!!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

TCS · Post by **TCS** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 pm

There is one on Auction Arms. The bid is currently at $2500.00.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:15 pm

we just need kingnothing to 'resin'-ate a webley wg for us

what's the major differences between this and a mk vi?.....besides the framing the grips?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:32 pm

Just the grip frame.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:54 pm

There is a lot more difference between the WG and the MK VI than just the grip frame. The entire frame is a lot longer. Including the cylinder. See the differences in the following pictures.

Hope this helps as a picture is worth a thousand words!!

The WG is on top and the MK VI is below.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:04 pm

Interesting. That's not what the Webley U. S. representative told me back in the 80's before they closed their doors here, but what ever.

The parts DO look different in your photos, so I'm wondering what vintage VI you have there in comparision to the WG? One looks like a black power .455, while the other has a longer cylinder.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:22 pm

As far as I know the WG's were made in the 1890's and were made for black powder. The MK VI's were made starting in the 1910's and were made to use smokeless powder. I'm not sure on the vintage of that MK VI in the photo as I got it off the net probably on some gun auction a while back. The WG is the one I just purchased.

As far as I know all the MK VI's look the same as the photo. If anyone else out there has a MK VI that looks different please share a photo if you got one.

By the way I've studied frame by frame all of the shots that show the Webley in "Last Crusade" and I'm convinced that is a WG also.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:27 pm

Absolutely, it's a WG in LC. We had a member in the past do the same frame by frame examination, and that was his report as well.

Regards! Michaelson

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:43 pm

Yes, I do love my Webley. It's not a WG, but she's a beaut. Absolutely the single most expensive bit of gear in the collection (to exclude the new CS bullwhip), but definitely worth the price for its great condition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Webley WGs more scarce than the standard-issue MK-VI?

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:50 pm

Whipwarrior,

Yes, the WG's are a lot scarcer and harder to find. I was searching for one at a "reasonable" price for over a year!! I still ended up paying $1,300 for mine! Definately the most expensive piece in my collection!! That's OK though as I also collect other vintage firearms.

If anyone has any more questions about the WG let me know!!!

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:45 pm

: I am confused, something my wife tells me is a common occurance.

You never see the grip on the Webley in LC, and obviously the Webley in the new movie has not been seen by anyone, in public at least. How is everyone so sure that this is a WG and not a VI?

I owned a black powder pistol for a decade and the cylinder was plugged with nipples for the percussion cap. When Indy opens the action in LC you can see that it is meant to have actual bullets and not cap and powder. Was his Webley converted??

Personally I think that it is a Mark VI. After having paid $800 for one in great shape in NY I hate to think that I got the wrong one.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:46 pm

Yes, you do. Watch the scene where Indy surrenders his Webley to the nazi soldiers in the Grail temple, and you'll plainly see the birdshead grip of the WG model.

Sorry. You got the wrong one, though still a nice revolver.

Regards! Michaelson

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:50 pm

Well, that is a lesson learned.

How about the cylinder being meant for shells and not powder?

Was Indy's WG converted??

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:04 pm

Most all the late large frame Webleys were converted if and when they were supplied for lend/lease during WW2 from .455 to .45 acp. if that's what you're asking.

Most ALL of them came in cartridge type cylinders from the get-go, though black powder cartridges rather than smokeless powder....not loose black powder and primer. Those were pretty much abandoned after the late 1870's.

Indy's revolver was never a 'cap and ball' type revolver when it came to his Webley.

The WG's were a product of the 1880's originally, came with a birds head grip frame, and were chambered for .455 / .476 service round.

Be VERY happy with your $800 Webley! Only us nit pickers will ever know, and the least expensive WG I've been able to find in a cursory search of the web has been $1700!

So, you got a bargain!!

Regards! Michaelson

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:55 pm

I have several screen captures from the DVD showing the birds head grip. I was actually going to buy a MKVI a couple years ago, but decided to "look again" before making the purchase, and that's when I discovered that the assumption everyone was making about the pistol was in fact incorrect.

Pretty intersting bit of movie archaeology on my own part.

The WG's were manufactured from the late 1800's until about 1912.

They fire the .455 MKII round which can still be purchased, assuming your gun hasn't been modified.

Sadly, my WG has had the cylinder shaved for .45 ACP (stupid morons!). It will shoot .45 rimmed okay, but I'll NOT be feeding it with ACP.

Russ

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:32 pm

First time I recall the WG being mentioned, it was in 2006 by Indy45:

viewtopic.php?p=247624&highlight=#247624

viewtopic.php?p=267137&highlight=#267137

As he said in 2006:

To be accurate, as others have posted, the Webley(ies) in LC were most likely Webley-Green Army models with the curved grips. But this Mk VI with the full grips, in my opinion, is much better looking and handling.

So, it's been archived before, but overlooked on many occasions.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:40 pm

Criminy! Even I had it right in 2002, but kept falling off the rails as years progressed! I totally forgot!!

viewtopic.php?p=22556#22556

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:36 pm

starwarsfanatic.

Yes, I too have gone over every frame in L.C. and it is definately the Webley WG. The easiest way to differentiate the WG and the MKVI especially if all you see is a distant profile of the handgun, is by the long flat area of the frame just in front of the trigger gaurd. That flat area on the WG is over an inch long so it's pretty easy to spot. The MKVI frame curves upward to the barrel almost imediately ahead of the trigger gaurd. Just check out the pics I posted earlier in this thread. This can also be seen in the Webley Indy has in the Indy 4 photo.

The Webley WG was always a black powder "cartridge" firearm. Not the older style black powder "ball & cap" that had the closed off cylinder with the nipples. Some of the old style "ball & cap" guns like the Colts and Remingtons were converted to fire black powder cartridges, but the Webley was always a "cartridge" gun.

Hope this info helps clear things up!

IB

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:28 pm

Yeah, thanks.

If only the true "Indy"ophiles will know the difference, then I am Ok with it. Maybe he will use the VI in the new movie.

As you can tell by the name I am a biy out of my element when I talk about Indy props.

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 pm

Here the Indy costume that I have been working on.

Jacket by Wested
Pants and Shirt by LL Bean
Belts and Whip holder by Todd's Costume
Shoes by Alden
Holster by IMA-USA
Hat by Del Monico
Webley MkVI by Webley
Bag and Strap (Not Shown) by Magnoli's

Sorry...don't know how to add a picture

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:43 am

http://www.rjholloway.co.uk/classic_handguns.htm

Some nice webley here unfortunately no WG, mut an interesting MKII.

M1917 · Post by **M1917** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:05 am

...in their own way. In most military sidearms, form follows function. But the 19th century weapons were somewhat more graceful than those of today, in my humble opinion (having carried several variants in 20 years of Marine Corps service). Most black powder arms were built pretty sturdy, considering the cartridge casings were filled to the top. A larger case meant more powder, thus the longer cylinder. And what some of you said was very true. Many a man was "buffaloed" by the large-framed pistol.
Just my two cents' worth.
R/S
Fritz

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:30 am

starwarsfanatic wrote:Maybe he will use the VI in the new movie.

Actually... we've seen screen caps. It's the WG.

As you can tell by the name I am a biy out of my element when I talk about Indy props.

Not a problem. Like anything in life, it's all a learning process.

Russ

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:34 pm

####.

Well......at least I am certain that Sean Connery carries the MKVI in Zardoz.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:38 pm

starwarsfanatic wrote:Well......at least I am certain that Sean Connery carries the MKVI in Zardoz.

Uh, yeah, but we're trying to get that image out of our minds, if it's all right with you.

Regards! Michaelson

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:41 pm

I watched LC today and did some scene by scene examination. They used two guns in the making of the film. The WG is very visable when he is holding it, and you can clearly see the butt of the pistol. There are two scenes when the gun is in the holster and you can clearly see that it is a MKVI, the bird beak is absent. One scene is when Indy is fighting the Nazi on the tank, when he flips him you clearly see the butt of the Webley and its shape is not a bird beak. The other scene is when his dad is hugging him. You again see the webley from the side and it is a MkVI. Here is a shot of my Webley.

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:43 pm

Here is the first screen capture.

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:44 pm

Here is the second.

Am I right?

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:56 pm

Here is a picture of a WG for sale on Gunbroker.com. The beak grip appears to be much thinner in profile the the MKVI. Bigger frame, bigger grip. I hope that, if I am right that I have a accurate Webley, even if it's not as rare as a WG.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:51 am

It's really hard to tell exactly what type of butt end is stiking out the end of the holster. In the screen grabs it looks like the laynard ring is also missing on the butt.

My feeling is that in all the shots where the gun stays in the holster it probably wasn't any type of real gun at all. Probably just a rubber dummy. No reason for him to be carrying the WG or any other real gun if all it does in that scene is stay in the holster.

What we do know for sure is that in the scenes where Indy actually handles the gun it is the WG.

IB

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:25 am

I think that there were probably prop guns for Harrison Ford and his stunt doubles. There is a whip in the lion car at the start of the film that is not the same as the one that he carries. It would be simple to have used the same whip in all scenes. It is very possible that there were multiple guns.

By the way, as a Star Wars fan I have a question....what do you consider "canon" when talking about props? I ask this because while doing my research it states in the "Indiana Jones Handbook" that he uses several revolvers, including a Webley MKVI.

When we discuss Star Wars we have two standards, the movie and the books. Is that true here?

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:45 am

For Indiana Bond
http://www.deactivated-guns.co.uk/detail/webley_wg.htm
I will not leach the pics, you can have a look here, a slightly different WG.

"Deactivated Webley Green 1896 model Production Dates: 1885-1912 .455 calibre. original hard blue finish. Marked Holland & Holland 98 New Bond St London to the top of the barrel. These revolvers were made on an individual basis and were highly regarded. This example was deactivated in 1990 and has clear chambers and working action. A rare Webley WG revolver
With its six inch barrel this is a big gun. One for the Webley collectors. "

Sffice to say that it is possible that the pistol, may be a later Mark X but perhaps a custom job. If you look at this WG, albeit from a different contract, you will see there are variations.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Cool!! A variation on the WG. I've seen drawings of this variation but never a photo. A hundred years ago these guns where basically hand made so you often will see variations. Another member just posted a pic of his Webley MKVI that has a birds head grip.

viewtopic.php?t=28075

The key in determining what he was carrying is to try to identify not just one characteristic, like the birds head grip, but more than one. The 3 major identifiable characteristics of the standard WG are:

1. Birds head grip.
2. One inch long flat area in front of trigger gaurd.
3. Longer cylinder.

Since we have seen variations in the grip on both the MKVI and the WG what you really need to look for is the other two identifiable characteristics. Check out LC again and you will see that everytime Indy is handling his Webley you can see the at least 2 of the the 3 identifiable characteristics that show it to be the WG.

Now when the gun is in his holster, and he is not handling it, it is very possible that it would not be the WG. I'm sure that they wouldn't want Mr. Ford carrying the heavy WG during all those action scenes as it might risk damage to the gun and Mr. Ford! From those screen shots, while in the holster, it definately does not look like the WG. Again, probably just some sort of rubber dummy gun.

IB

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:36 pm

starwarsfanatic wrote:Here is the second.

Am I right?

To my eye, I'd say you're correct.

Regard! Michaelson

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:04 pm

I sent a letter to Vic Armstrong who was the Indy stunt double, if I hear anything I will our course post it.

I think that there is another thing to consider when looking at the Webleys, that is the powder that it used. I am not an expert on antique firearms by any means, but since we now know that there are variations of BOTH the MK VI and WG and black powder leaves a huge cloud of smoke when fired, if the gun IS a variation of a WG wouldn't the gun leave that same cloud of smoke when it was fired?? I think that he might be carrying a variation of the MK VI with a bird beak grip, which would use the smokeless powder....unless the cartridges are interchangable?

Michaelson:

Since you are the knower of things. Can you answer the question about what is considered "canon", the movies or the book or both.

Thanks.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:15 pm

Black powder and smokeless cartridges are interchangeable so that would not be an indicator.

IB

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:24 pm

Michaelson:

Since you are the knower of things. Can you answer the question about what is considered "canon", the movies or the book or both.

All I know regarding this discussion is in past conversations I had with the author, he told me the ONLY reason he stuck a Webley in Indy's holster was because he saw one in a gun store, and thought it was a cool looking gun.

ABSOLUTELY NO method to the madness. They just used what was on hand, and apparently what ever they thought was 'cool' at any particular moment.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:30 pm

Indiana Bond wrote:Black powder and smokeless cartridges are interchangeable so that would not be an indicator.

IB

On the contrary, they are interchangeabe for fit, but NEVER try firing smokeless powder in a black powder cartridge revolver unless using very low pressure rounds.
The metalurgy of the two weapons are completely different, and the pressure of the smokeless powder could easily blow a black powder cartridge gun to pieces!!

Regards! Michaelson

starwarsfanatic · Post by **starwarsfanatic** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:38 pm

Michaelson wrote:On the contrary, they are interchangeabe for fit, but NEVER try firing smokeless powder in a black powder cartridge revolver unless using very low pressure rounds.
The metalurgy of the two weapons are completely different, and the pressure of the smokeless powder could easily blow a black powder cartridge gun to pieces!!

Regards! Michaelson

I was just thinking that.

I have a modern Ruger pistol that uses BP and they said NEVER to interchange BP for smokeless. I then must assume that would also include blanks. It would then be logical that Indy was carrying a gun that used smokeless powder.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:47 pm

As long as the pressure levels are low, smokeless powder works in black powder revolvers....but it must remain at or below top black powder pressure loads stated for any given gun.

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:57 pm

Michaelson,

Of course you are correct. You should not fire smokeless powder in a black powder firearm unless you are loading very light loads. I should have made myself more clear. I reload for my cowboy action shooting firearms and I use light loads of Trail Boss for both my 1893 Marlin lever and my .38 S&W pocket pistol. No problem.

I do recall reading that back in the early 1900's when the change from black powder to smokeless was ocurring, the .455 Webley cartridges in smokeless powder were loaded to match the pressures of the black powder cartridges so that they could be used in either type of firearm. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

Also, if firing blanks, the type of powder used is no major concern as there is no bullet to create the back pressure.

My point is that, just because the WG is designed for Black Powder, doesn't mean that it must ONLY fire blackpowder. With blanks or light loads it can just as easily work with smokeless powder. This is especially true if this was what they wanted for the movie.

IB

The REAL new Indy Gun...

The REAL new Indy Gun...

Yes it is a Webley WG!!

Which Webley...

Both Webleys are beautiful...