Club Obi Wan

I think I found the answer to this, it's his MKVII right? I was looking at the Nepal scene and it seems to be where it comes from.

Perhaps the same way DeNiro carried his in 'Taxi Driver'... with something up his sleeve



I personally would like to think that Indy hid it under his jacket, in a manner much like his long-lost nephew...

I have worn a shoulder holster with an airsoft 1911 under my wested and its not noticeable at all. So ive always assumed thats what Indy did.

I think he may have carried it Magnum PI style. In the back of his pants with no holster.

Of course, the armourer. I forgot about him. His little known sidekick..."Re-Load"
I think it has to be his MKVII --if you take a careful look at the Nepal scene he seems to be going to his bag for extra clips as well.

in his pants. in the kantanga boat scene, after he's done reloading the clip, you see him put it in his pants.

Isn't it all just supposed to be the same gun?

nicktheguy wrote:I think it has to be his MKVII --if you take a careful look at the Nepal scene he seems to be going to his bag for extra clips as well.

That'd be a great observation...except, as is evident in this pic from Raider.net (used without expressed permission)



you'll notice that Indy doesn't HAVE the Mark VII in the bar scene!!

I always assumed Indy rolled with it tucked in his waistband after I saw him stuff it in there on the Bantu Wind. It's a simple enough explanation that makes sense ... why not just run with it?

What was I drinking when I looked at that scene? I could have sworn he was wearing it then.....Well, order me up another...and how about a round for everyone here while we're at it...

nicktheguy wrote:What was I drinking when I looked at that scene? I could have sworn he was wearing it then.....Well, order me up another...and how about a round for everyone here while we're at it...

Sounds good to me

Gater wrote:

The pic's flipped, BTW.

you're only saying that cuz the bow is on the wrong side...doesn't change that he's not wearing the bag, tho

The nose is crooked the wrong way and the scar is on the wrong side. No bag, of course no bag. That's so wanha.

....and the buttons are on the ladies side of the shirt.

what does wanha mean anyways?

It means old.

That picture is flipped.

OK, I just watched ROTLA again and I know this has probably been covered before. To me it seems that the whole Browning HP thing is just a screw up by the film crew. I think Indy was never intended to have the HP just appear in his hand, but perhaps due to filming sequence the mistake could not be corrected.

He does use both the HP and the S&W in the scene. What's odd is he starts with the Smith and backs up into a doorway for cover. He shoots the Smith and then we have a cutaway and then in the same position and same posture we see him shooting the HP. Another cutaway and then again the same position and posture we now see him with the Smith again! After that it is all the HP.

If it wasn't for this almost instantaneous jump from the Smith to the HP, back to the Smith, and then back to the HP, I could agree with him possibly having the HP on him someplace. Although this doesn't make much sense as you never see the HP again.

Another possibility is that the HP was Marions and she had it stashed in the bar someplace and somehow got it to Indy. But then how and why do we have the quick swith back and forth and back again?

The only conclusion I can come up with is that this scene must have been shot early in the filming of the movie and perhaps they had not established axactly what type of gun Indy would be carrying. They may have shot the scene a few times each time using a different gun so that they could choose later which to use. Some sloppy editing could have left us with Indy being seen using 2 differnt guns.

Another possibility would be that because Indy is doing so much shooting in this scene he would have only been able to shoot 6 rounds with the Smith while the HP gave him 13 plus an easy reload using an extra magazine. They may have decided he better be using a semi-auto otherwise it sure would be strange having so many shots comming out of a six shooter!

What would have made this scene correct would have been to have Indy start with his Smith. Shoot six rounds and be empty. And then have Marion get her stashed HP to Indy to continue the gunfight. This would explain him having the HP as we never seen him before or after with it. It would also give him the firepower needed for the many shots that were fired in the scene. This may have been what was intended as even the sound of the shots is different coming from the Smith and the HP so someone knew there were 2 different guns.

Again it was probably just poor editing that may have left this detail out. Or they may have just not shot the right scene or had some bad takes so the scene just couldn't be edited together correctly.

We will probably never know!

...and people wonder if Spielberg and Lucas will return to Indy's original trilogy to tinker around like Lucas did with Star Wars... I could definetly see Lucas using some of that Industrial Light Magic to create an insert scene somewhere in there with the new DVD release of the Indy trilogy, whereby a digitized Marion throws a digitized Indy the HP... or maybe just digitally replace the HP with the S&W...

Hey! It's possible!

I thought I read somewhere that it had something to do with the reliability of the rounds used in the Browning being better than the ones used in the revolver. Remember this movie was made in the days before we all had the power of the pause button to scrutinize films like this frame by frame and they thought, or were hoping, no one would notice. I don't think Indy was ever supposed to use the Browning, as it just appears in his hand and changes from one gun to the other from shot to shot in the scene.

Indiana Venkman wrote:I thought I read somewhere that it had something to do with the reliability of the rounds used in the Browning being better than the ones used in the revolver. Remember this movie was made in the days before we all had the power of the pause button to scrutinize films like this frame by frame and they thought, or were hoping, no one would notice. I don't think Indy was ever supposed to use the Browning, as it just appears in his hand and changes from one gun to the other from shot to shot in the scene.

I have also heard that, but it is a problematic solution, considering later on in the movie when he is on the Bantu Wind, he again has his browning and he does not fire it at all. So why would they change the gun half way through the movie if nobody was supposed to notice that he had more than one gun?

Yes, I believe they wern't too concerned at exactly what gun was used as they probably figured the audiance wouldn't really care or notice. They didn't figure on fanatics like us showing up!

As far as reliability of rounds is concerned I know that firing blanks in a semi-auto is far more problamatic than firing blanks in a revolver. So if anything the HP would be far less reliable than the Smith especially shooting blanks.

I'm sure Michaelson can chime in on this as he is a firearms expert also.

IB

So I just happened to see the movie again and ponder this question. To me, the two guns in the bar scene makes perfect sense. He starts out with his trusty revolver in his left hand (having just used his whip to save Marion's face) The gunfight starts with him shooting one of his six; during the melee he empties the revolver as he retreats to the doorway for cover. Once he gains cover he grabs his backup browning rather than reload and the fight continues from there. When it comes time to reload he sticks with the browning for speed and magazine capacity.

To me Indy is making the tactically sound choices of a man who has been in a gun fight before. He starts of with the more reliable of the two weapons and when things get hot he switches to a higher capacity quick reloading backup.

In terms of where he carries it, I vote for the bag most of the time, in the pants he he is ready for a fight.

just my .02 It is only a move.

Titus,

Yes that makes sense however you missed one important thing. Watch again closely and you will see that in the doorway he first shoots the Smith. There is a quick cutaway and then we see him shoot the HP. Another quick cutaway and he is now shooting the Smith again. After that he uses the HP.

If it wasn't for that quick return to the Smith again your theory would make sense. A matter of fact if you would simply edit out that quick second scene with the Smith the whole thing works.

Like I said earlier, the whole thing was probably just a mistake in the editing.

IB

Indiana Bond wrote:Titus,

Yes that makes sense however you missed one important thing. Watch again closely and you will see that in the doorway he first shoots the Smith. There is a quick cutaway and then we see him shoot the HP. Another quick cutaway and he is now shooting the Smith again. After that he uses the HP.

If it wasn't for that quick return to the Smith again your theory would make sense. A matter of fact if you would simply edit out that quick second scene with the Smith the whole thing works.

Like I said earlier, the whole thing was probably just a mistake in the editing.

IB

I also noticed the shot of the smith in between 2 shots of the HP. I am fully convinced that was just an editing decision and not meant to suggest he actually switched guns in the middle of the fight. It all happens so quickly you really do not notice it unless you are freeze framing or really looking. I think it was a deliberate choice to have Indy use a second gun, one we see later on on the boat. I think it may have been used to make the huge gun fight more realistic than what we normally see on film where a 6 shooter fires unlimited shots. Just my 2 cents.
best
Canada

Good points on the editing gaff. I agree it was probably just a mistake. I do love that Indy carries a backup and I believe that to be intentional.

Fun topic anyway.

Titus Pulo wrote:Good points on the editing gaff. I agree it was probably just a mistake. I do love that Indy carries a backup and I believe that to be intentional.

Fun topic anyway.

I teach editing to university students and i teach them certain tricks that work because most people will not notice it. It is like the old magicians trick of distracting the eye with an explosion in one hand while they use slight of hand with the other. the eye is just looking somewhere else. in that particular shot, if i remember correctly, your eye is drawn to Fords face as he is shooting not necessarily the gun that he is using.
best
Canada

I also think he was meant to carry a second gun...if not he would have been throwing rocks!!!...

I believe Indy is wearing his bag when he comes BACK into the bar to save Marion.

He clearly goes for his bag to "reload" while in the doorway.

I'm surprised no one mentioned that the editing gaffe ADDS to the B-Movie/Saturday-Night-Movie-Serial effect that Lucas and Co were looking for. If you watch all the old "spagetti-westerns" and such, a lot of those movies show people firing well more than the gun's capacity. An example comes to mind of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: at the end they never reload their six-shooters. I personally like the shoulder-rig theory as opposed to the bag or the in-the-pants one. I mean, have you ever ran around with a semi-auto tucked in your pants? On the other hand, if Indy DID use a shoulder-rig, then why not add that to the rest of the gear - like, why not bring it with him to Cairo?

Is it not reasonable it was stashed in the inside jacket pocket?

I think a Browning HP is too big to fit in the inside jacket pocket. I think it's too big to fit in any of the jacket pockets. My HP is back in Hawaii so I can't try it out. Can anyone out there with an HP check if it would fit in any of the jacket pockets?

If he did have the HP on him he probably just had it stuck in his pants as we have seen Indy carry his weapon that way. Although it would be a bit uncomfortable! Or, as I mentioned before, he somehow got it from Marion.

If he did have a shoulder rig we should have seen it somewhere in the 3 movies. Also in the scene where he gets his suitcase and starts packing, Indy specifaclly states "and that's why I take this" refering to his Smith Revolver as he tosses it to his suitcase. Why not show or mention the HP at the same time?

In the next couple of days, when I get some free time, I plan to go through the bar fight scene frame by frame to see if I can pick up on some of the details and hopefully answer some of these questions in more detail.

I will let you all know what I find out!

IB

"Besides, you know what a cautious fellow I am..." Indy says as he toss it into his luggage. Why can't he carry more than one weapon, IF he WERE so "cautious" I agree, we should have seen some sort of rig in the other movies, but I just like to leave it to the imagination. Wait a minute....does the novelization or any other Raider's book mention the bar shoot-out?

OK, I've just went over the Raven bar scene frame by frame and here is the analysis:

30:48 Indy uses whip to snatch hot poker from Marions face
30:50 Indy with Smith in left hand says "let her go"
30:54 Smith (Shot 1) using left hand
30:55 - 30:57 three other scenes
30:58 Smith (Shot 2) using left hand then heads towards doorway
30:59 Smith (Shot 3) swithes gun to right hand and enters doorway
31:00 Villain with machine gun
31:01 Smith in doorway ready to shoot
31:02 Villain with machine gun again
*31:02 quick one shot using HP
*31:03 Smith (shot 4 & 5) looking over Indy's shoulder
31:04 Smith (shot 6,7 & 8 ) Indy in doorway
*31:05 Indy fires 2 shots with Unknown Gun, we are looking over Villains shoulder with Indy shooting towards us
31:06 wideshot of bar
31:07 Villain dumps table
31:08 close-up of Headpiece
31:10 Villain tosses rifle
31:11 wideshot of bar
31:12 villain shoots rifle
31:13 Indy is in doorway with Smith, his left hand grabs his jacket as he looks down to put the Smith into the holster
31:14 - 31:18 A few other scenes
31:19 Indy swings his body and arms from right to left with his HP now in hand
After this Indy now only uses the HP.

Upon analysis it seems that the discrepency in the magic switching guns comes at 31:02. We also have a discrepency at 31:03 and 31:04 because with these 2 scenes we have a total of 8 shots being fired with the Smith. The scene at 31:05 is also problamatic as it would add 2 more possible shots for the Smith thus totalling 10 shots with a 6 shot revolver! The scene at 31:05 also seems out of place as he is shooting at the wrong Villain.

To correct the discrepencies all that needs to be done is to remove the three scenes I have marked with an * This would leave us a total of six shots with the Smith. It gets rid of the magically appearing HP. And it removes the out of place scene with 2 shots fired from an unknown gun.

If we made the above corrections everything works out correctly It now looks like the scenes from 31:13 to 31:19 show that Indy realizes he is out of ammo with his Smith after firing 6 shots, so he holsters the Smith and draws the HP from his pants to continue the gunfight. This is probably what was supposed to happen.

Indy's MK VII bag is never seen anywhere on him during the entire Bar scene, so he could not have gotten the HP from his bag. Also I don't think he drew it from a shoulder holster as his movements seem to suggest holstering the Smith and then drawing the HP from his pants. There is also one frame at 31:13 where it looks like you can see the HP stuck in his pants. He also could not have gotten it from Marion as she was seperated from him by the bar and a couple of villains.


Another few interesting observations:

At 31:28 we see Indy use the HP to shoot the man who is on fire. This is the exact same angle shot as the magically appearing HP scene at 31:02. That 31:02 HP scene was obviously not intended to be there as it was part of the man on fire sequence.

At 31:42 Indy reloads the HP with a new magazine after only firing 5 shots. At 32:23 he shoots the HP 4 more times. The HP is only shot a total of 9 times.

At 32:44 We see that Indy is now struggling with a villain who has taken the HP away from Indy. At 32:48 Indy forces the villains hand that is holding the HP over a fire and the villain drops the HP into the fire! After that we never see Indy retrieve the HP and it seems that he leaves the HP behind when he leaves with Marion!

How does he end up with the HP again on the Bantu Wind?! They really should have shown Indy with the Smith rather than the HP when he's on the Bantu Wind. Especially since he never fires it while on the boat.

Anyways, that was a lot of fun!! I hope it solves some mysteries and allows us all to sleep better at nights!



IB

How do we know that the HP on the Bantu Wind is the SAME HP in Nepal:shock:? Perhaps the HP was in Katanga's cabin already, seeing how Indy and Marion slept there. That would solve some continuity issues right there



PS: Doesn't Katanga have a gun on his belt as well? Maybe Indy ran out of ammo at some point between Cairo and the port and Katanga gave Indy his pistol in case things got rough on the high seas.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing that it may have been a different HP on the Bantu Wind. The HP he has on the Bantu Wind had black grips so I was also trying to see what color the grips were in the Raven bar. A lot of HP's have brown wood grips but some, like mine, are black. Unfortunately I could not see any good shots that showed the grip color in the raven bar.

So that one remains for us to speculate on! I guess I still won't be getting much sleep!

starks_6 wrote:I also think he was meant to carry a second gun...if not he would have been throwing rocks!!!...

Exactly. Start off with 6 shots in the revolver then switch to your semi-auto for 13-15-17 shots depending on the magazine.

Pyroxene wrote:

starks_6 wrote:I also think he was meant to carry a second gun...if not he would have been throwing rocks!!!...

Exactly. Start off with 6 shots in the revolver then switch to your semi-auto for 13-15-17 shots depending on the magazine.

Yes, that's exactly what would happen if those 3 scenes could be deleted as I pointed out above.

Does any one have the capability to copy the entire gunfight section and delete the three scenes that are throwing the whole thing off? It would be great to see how it would look, flow, and feel with the correct editing. Perhaps it could be posted on Youtube so we could all take a look.



IB

I can do it, but it would take time...