Getting all the components of the Raiders hat together

[schwammy]

At the risk of being a lemming, I'm sure leaning toward hopping onto the Optimo bandwagon. However I agree with MK that so far, few of the Optimo photos I've seen really deliver that elusive Raiders quality. I'm hoping maybe this is because everyone's Optimo is still too new to be broken in, while the Raiders hat was apparently stomped on by trained monkeys for several weeks prior to shooting.

I'd like to make a couple points, seeing how quiet things have been lately. I'm going to do some side-by-side comparisons if I can, and I'm afraid I may have to borrow some photos from other people's posts to make my points.

For starters, crown width and brim dimensions. The Optimo still looks too wide in the crown, while the brim seems too short in front and too long (or maybe just too rounded?) on the sides. Chris King, if you'll forgive me, I'd like to use yours as an example, since you're the only one with a Harrison Ford mannequin.




Granted, everyone has their favorite hat scene, and maybe Chris is aiming for a different look. But the big thing I notice is the narrower crown on the film hat, a brim that comes down lower in front and in back, and a seemingly straighter, more severe dimensional cut on the sides.

The next issue is the ribbon. So far, I can't decide between brown and black. Neither looks quite right. The brown ribbons all have too much purple in them, while the blacks are all too black. If it was a brown ribbon, it was a greyish brown, and if it was black, it was a very dusty black.

I think part of the problem may be that the Raiders ribbon appears to be all cotton, while every ribbon I've run across anymore is some kind of synthetic. Something in the way the light reflects on it, maybe. I'm not sure. I know fuller's earth helps. But I still haven't found a ribbon I'm crazy about.

Rundquist mentioned Gary White's eighty-year-old ribbon that looks black under outdoor light and brown under indoor light. That has to be it. Herbert Johnson must have used old stock ribbon on the Raiders hats, or else ribbon that no one except Gary White has been able to find so far.

[schwammy]

Now, check out the brims on these shots.



Note how the brim seems to stay the same width all the way out to the edge, where it all of a sudden is squared off. Is this an illusion, or does the brim, in front, anyway, appear to be cut in almost a square shape than a rounded shape? Compare this with a shot of any of our fedoras.

My impression is that most hatters attempting a dimensional cut might be bringing the cut too far forward. Or perhaps they're starting with too little brim to begin with.

[schwammy]

Now, let's talk about the sides of the crown. Most fedoras have tapered sides. It's a sad but inescapable part of life. Miraculously, the Optimo and a few others have no taper. But better still, in my book, is the almost mythical 'reverse taper.' You don't see this effect in every scene, but I love it when it does show up. The only stock hat I've ever seen with what appears to be a reverse taper is the new Keppler hat.



Thanks to Rundquist and MK for these photos.

If I were confident I could get a Keppler in the lightweight, floppy felt Optimo offers, with a crown tall enough to offset my 7 3/4" head, a 1 5/8" ribbon and a 3-inch brim to maintain the larger proportions, that would be my hat of choice. It's got everything else going for it, especially for someone with a normal-sized head.

[Fedora]

To me the Optimo on the dummy looks to be too large , or rather too wide across the front. My Optimos are not this way. I have had hats that looked that way on me, and quickly got rid of them. I have always had a hard time getting the right proportion on the brim, in fact, I have never really nailed it exactly. On my personal dimensional cuts, I end the cut closer to the sides rather than the front, and this keeps the brim from looking too pointed, with more of a flatter radius up front. I swear, the Cairo hats looks to have the ribbon tightened up, thus causing the reverse taper. Fedora

[schwammy]

Agreed, and I don't mean to pick on Chris. My Federation has the same problem -- the crown is too wide in front. I'm beginning to believe those who maintain that a hat without a liner or sweatband may be the answer. That way you could go a whole size smaller on the crown. Now my PBMB had a narrower crown, but the problem was it was too narrow to fit my head properly.

To quote C3PO, "this is madness."

[schwammy]

Crown height is a perpetual problem. The Raiders hat seems to run the gamut from five inches to six inches tall. Here are two of the most extreme shots.

[MK]

The Optimo still looks too wide in the crown, while the brim seems too short in front and too long (or maybe just too rounded?) on the sides.

I agree with most of your points.....especially the crown being too wide. When Fedoralover and I compared our lids that were both 7 3/8, his Optimo crown was much wider than my Borsalino. At first I thought his brim was too small but when measuring we found then to being about the same. The wide crown was creating this illusion.

The good news is that the venders are getting closer all the time for both the fedora and the jacket. These are sunny days in gear country.

[Fedora]

Yep, it is madness, and I have been driven there myself. The only way that I have managed to keep my sanity is to assume that of all the hats supplied by HJ, some were taller than others, some had wider brims, and even the ribbons were colored differently. Is this a fact? Well, as I said, this is a sanity issue, and I have to assume that it is indeed factual. It is my personal defense mechanism. BTW, check out the pic MK took of fedoralover wearing his Optimo and tell me if it looks too wide. I thought it looked ok. Fedora

[schwammy]

I don't know about too wide, but it does seem like he could get away with a taller crown height if he wanted to. But the hat looks good on him.

This shot of Illinois Troy's Optimo looks really good. The crown height might be a tad short, and there might not be quite enough dimensional cut on the sides, but I like it a lot.



One thing I notice on all these Optimos though is that none of them has any kind of brim curl at all.

[schwammy]

Here we can see just how narrow the crown looks and also how squarely cut the sides seem to be. Compare with the Optimos above and notice how their sides seem more rounded. This is either a dimensional cut issue or a 'swoop and curl' issue, but either way, I don't see it in the Optimo.

Lord, I need to get a life.

[Fedora]

The Optimo brims are a weak point, IMHO. But, felt stiffener works miracles on this type of brim. I think fedoralover ordered that hat with a shorter crown. I did the same with my first Optimo. Now, I want them taller. Fedora

[schwammy]

I don't doubt that the felt stiffener works, Fedora. But could someone who has successfully curled their Optimo brim with felt stiffener post some pics, so we can see what is possible?

I was thinking the brim problem could also be a matter of too short of a brim in back and in front. Check out this shot.



As _ pointed out once, that simply has to be a three-inch brim, at least!

[whipwarrior]

I truly sympathize with you guys in your quest, I really do. As a rule, I don't like to brag, and I say this at the risk of alienating some of you fedora mongers, but I feel incredibly fortunate that I got the perfect hat on the very first try. Honestly, I cannot find fault with the fedora that was crafted for me. Knowing that my situation is a rare occurrence makes me cherish my trusty Poet all the more. I wish you all the best of luck finding your dream hat, and hope that you will be as happy with yours as I am with mine.

Good luck, fellow seekers!


-Dale

[Fedora]

Alas Whipwarrior, I am afraid your good find will fade away as that HJ starts its taper. And yes, it is inevitable. Then, you may find yourself in the same boat as many of us. But, it is good company. Fedora

[Marcus Brody]

Tell me, does anyone else think their Raiders styled Fed looks like an LC hat with a Raiders bash? My fed just doesn't get that reverse taper and I think it helps to be slightly off center (not even 65 or 90, just 10 degrees or less). However, I still think it makes a nice hat if not perfectly Raiders-screen accurate, but it does make the perfect Indy-Derek fedora.

[Indiana Joe]

Alas Whipwarrior, I am afraid your good find will fade away as that HJ starts its taper. And yes, it is inevitable.

Would an Optimo re-block help when that happens?

[schwammy]

Geez, there's a pessimist for you. Dale, are your pics of your HJ still posted somewhere? I remember they looked great.

Perhaps it would be more fair to compare Chris King's Optimo to this shot, which has the widest-looking crown.



This is apparently the shot from which they made the first Raiders poster, and I'm always struck by how much Harrison Ford resembles Tom Selleck in it.

[Marcus Brody]

Wasn't the hat used on Chris King's model a little bit large for the model or something?

[Fedora]

As soon as I get the 3rd Optimo this month, I will shoot some good photos of all 3, plus my reblocking efforts on the Fed. I may even get brave again and have my head in the different hats. Fedora

[fedoralover]

Schwammy, that pic of me probably couldn't have come out much worse. I really hadn't put too much effort into trying to get the brim right, but after seeing that pic I did. Some have said that just by wearing their Optimos, they finally got the look they wanted. I'm not so patient and put some felt stiffner on the underside of the brim. It looks like a totally different hat now. As I sit here writing this I'm holding my Optimo in one hand and my fed deluxe in the other, and looking at the crown widths across the front they look the same. The Optimo looks straighter on the sides though and the color puts the fed to shame. As to the height, I wanted one a little shorter to see which looked better and I agree with you that I think I would have liked it higher, but it's not so short that it looks bad.

Keep in mind that the Optimo is a 100% custom built fedora, getting the exact right dimensions for you would require one to walk into Grahams shop. Probably not an option for most of us. You may want to call Graham and talk to him about the width of the crown and the way you want the dimensionally cut brim. If you send him the pics you have posted here, he more than likely could make it just the way you want it.

The quality of the hat is really one to be admired. But it is a big investment. I agree with you that Lee's latest lid looks fantastic and if I could be absolutely sure mine would look like his, it would be a great hat at a fraction of the cost.

fedoralover

[whipwarrior]

I hate to break it you, but I've had this hat for over 4 years, and it's not tapering. I believe that this phenomena results from improperly caring for your hat, such as drying it too quickly after it becomes wet, etc. I keep mine inside and climate-controlled at all times.

-Dale

[Fedora]

Glad to hear it Whipwarrior. But, you can't ignore the fact that felt is gonna shrink if you wear it regularly. It is the nature of the material. Course, if it only receives occasional wear, it will take longer for the taper to raise its head. Don't take my word for it. You will find out, eventually, trust me. Then, you will join the club, and you will be welcomed. Fedora

[whipwarrior]

I practically never wear my hat- only when I travel, and those days are few and far between. So the less I wear it, the better it stays? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!


-Dale

[Fedora]

Yep, the more it is kept inside and not worn, the less it will taper, and the longer it will take to do so. I had to retire a Fed recently, along with the campdraft due to the taper issue. Course, it took around a year, wearing it everyday for them to become too tapered to wear in good conscience. Fedora

[Marc]

Besides of the crown hight, which is isn't as high on mine (by request), and the bow, where the front part of mine is at the same level as the rest of the ribbon, Whipwarriors HJ look just they way my custom-made Petersbros. does. And in my opinion that is great, since I think that the HJ looks fantastic.

Wear it with pride Whipwarrior. That is one of the better HJs you got yourself there.

Regards,
Marc

[Indiana Philip]

Whipwarrior- That has to be one of the best looking fedoras I've seen to date! Love the shape of it and it even just barely has the inverse, or reverse taper that Schwammy (always astonished by his astute powers of objective observation) pointed out. My hats off to you. What a great lid!!
Indiana Philip

[agent5]

Schwammy,
The pics of all the other Optimo's do show the brim as being rather flat. My brim however looks exactly as the brim does on film and in all the pics. Like I said, it just takes some time for it to get the look we want. I would be happy to send you some pics if you'd like. Mail me your e-mail address if you want 'em. The only thing I'm slightly dissatisfied with is that the ribbon could be a half an inch wider. The color Optimo offers is fabulous except for it's size and I'm still waiting on them to get their new shipment in of new vintage ribbons. On the issue of crown height, I've found my own sollution which seems to work rather well. Take any fedora and mark on your forehead where you normally wear your hat. From that point down to the opening of your mouth when closed is your crown height for your porportions. Since we all have different porportions this should make it right for everyone. If you look at the pics of HF it looks like this is how it was if you take the measurements and it works fine when I take the measurements on myself. Because the ribbon on my Optimo is slightly to short it makes my crown look a little too big so I can't wait to get the right size ribbon on mine. I only hope they can match the color because I like it.
It appears as though you are really deciding hard whether to order an Optimo or not. If so, I think you won't be displeased. I know it's alot of money to throw down for a lid but I think once you have one you won't regret spending the money if you're as interesed in screen accuracy as I am or just in a very nice hat. Either way, it's only money.

[whipwarrior]

Wear it with pride Whipwarrior. That is one of the better HJs you got yourself there.

Thank you very much. Believe me, I will.

The reason I don't wear it all the time is because most people don't wear fedoras much anymore, and it would probably attract undue attention. Since I've always been somewhat of a loner, I like to keep things pretty low-key when I'm out and about. I do, however, LOVE wearing my Poet when I travel because it makes me feel adventurous and daring, important and sophisticated and, let's face it, I look so good in it!


-Dale

[Indiana Philip]

let's face it, I look so ###### good in it!
-Dale

Well, based on what I can see from the picture you appear to be a rather short fellow with his hat on backwards.
Indiana Philip

[whipwarrior]

No. I'm actually 5'10 and 1/2, hat on correctly.

[Indiana Philip]

Can't reply much now... busy throwing rocks at my Miller.
Indiana Philip

[Dakota Ellison]

Let's see how many lemmings I can chase off the cliff.

1. The reverse taper. This is seen only in the Tunisia scenes. Why? Look at the dried sweat around the ribbon. Ford sweats through the felt. It's like 120 degrees in the shade. He takes the hat off. It dries, really fast, shrinking the felt around the ribbon. The ribbon is tightened accordingly, and when he puts it on the brim assumes the shape we all know and love. The ribbon rides up in the front, making the brim appear to be at least 3 inches wide. The crown bulges out above the ribbon, where it didn't get wet.
2. The shape of the brim. Anyone who owns an HJ knows this is what makes it an Indy fedora. Mr. Swales cuts a little off the sides and then a little off between the sides and the front and back. This squares off the brim in front. It is supposed to look this way, like it's been on a few digs and been worn around the world, not like a dress hat. Pull it down, front and back on the right side. Sweep it up on the left a bit.
3. The crown. It's a narrow British blocked crown. My PB is the only other hat I own with a narrow crown like the HJ has. The HJ is really a wide brimmed, high crowned trilby.
4. The ribbon. It's dark brown, almost black, with very little sheen. Scrunch it down. Put some wrinkles in it.
5. Club Obi Wan is the only club I'll admit to belonging to. OK, I used to belong to AAA, the auto club and I've been meaning to join the Procrastination Club for years.
6. Dale does have one killer of an Indiana Jones fedora.

[Chris_King]

Sorry I'm late.
Schwammy - the Optimo on my Ford dummy does look too big. That's because the Harrison head is slightly too small and it has solid, sculpted hair. That means that the hat does not fit tightly to the head because the hair does not compress in the way that it would if it were real. The hat was modelled to look like the later photo you posted - the one that the first poster was based on.

Chris.

[Rundquist]

Schwammy, to me the main factor in duplicating the Raiders hat is the felt. It has to have the right density and feel to it if you want your hat to move like the one in the movie. This is the main difference between the Optimo and all the other hats on the market in my opinion. You can get any of the other hats to look like a still from the movie but but they still don't "move" like the one in Raiders. The closest thing that I've seen to the Optimo (as far as movie "feel" goes) is Indiana Dan's Keppler which had the snot kicked out of it. Koreana Jones likewise pounded all the stiffener out of his with similar results. You could pound the stiffener out of any hat, but it's a risky proposition. Don't worry about the brim. I'll try to post picks of what my hats look like now, soon. Below are a few pics from when the hat was new. The brim has totally settled since then. Cheers

[Rundquist]

[Rundquist]

[Rundquist]

[Rundquist]

My Optimo is the only hat that I've owned that could fold up in the back like this pick. Cheers

[Dakota Ellison]

My HJ will do that. So will my Fed. I've kicked the snot out of both of'em.

[schwammy]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

Dakota Ellison, interesting that you call the Herbert Johnson Poet a trilby. I agree, but that's the first instance I've heard anyone on this forum use that word. Here's what the "Gentleman's Guide to Grooming and Style" has to say on the subject:

"Someone who occasionally goes to horse races or to equestrian tournaments will probably have wondered why so many of the men present wear a hat that is far too small for them. If these hats are dark brown, you can be pretty sure they are members of the 'trilby' species. The brown trilby has traditionally been worn by people who work with horses. The tradition comes from England, where the trilby is obligatory wear for all events in the equestrian calendar. This assures hatmakers like Lock & Co. a certain proportion of their turnover each year. However, it is not clear why the English like wearing their trilbies a size too small. They are definitely available in larger sizes. Maybe it is because most trilbies were handed down from father to son and have shrunk over the generations."

[Rundquist]

My HJ will do that. So will my Fed. I've kicked the snot out of both of'em.

What about brim ripples? The two beat Kepplers that I've seen (which look amazing) can't even get the ripples. So far, the Optimo is the only one. Cheers

[Dakota Ellison]

I'll let you know the next time some giant Nazi hits me hard enough to make my brim ripple.

[Rundquist]

I'll let you know the next time some giant Nazi hits me hard enough to make my brim ripple.

Ha, ha. I meant little ripples in the brim that are more or less always there. I'll see if I can dig up some stills of the movie hat showing what I'm talking about and also take some pics of my Optimo showing the same. Also I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to rip on other hats. I was just trying to state which factors are important to me personally in a Raider hat.

[Chamorro]

Is there any other, kinder, gentler way to get the stiffener out without pounding the snot out of a hat? Some chemical solution or water perhaps? I do like the softness of Dan's and Baphy's hats but I don't want to do what they did if I can help it.

[Gorak]

I`ve got the ripples in my Allesandria`s. And with the way my brim is shaped as the hat conforms to my head, it automatically has the squared- edge dimensional-cut look even though it doesn`t have one. Even though I used the sideways method, I`m sure it is Mr. Fords head shape along with the size-version of hat used in Raiders (Round oval or regular oval or whatever it was..) With a slight touch, I can get the extreme reverse taper seen when Indy is shooting at the truck in Cairo. My brim can do the lift up in the back like the plane fight scene, flutter in the wind like when Indy is on the horse at the top of the hill before he goes after the truck, and (my favorite look) can slpoe just like the VERY Close up basket chase pics. Even though all the points are important in the look, I feel that head shape has everything to do with it. I don`t have it and had to resort turning my hat sideways...this makes the hat look alittle big on me but I have the EXACT RAIDERS look that I wanted....matches every scene. I bet if someone got an Optimo in a regular "round oval" that their head would "stretch it front to back" and that floppy brim would shape itself just like my Allesssandria`s. I bet my whole Indy gear on it!!!

[Fedora]

Yep, alcohol, it works. I just don't know if it hurts the felt over the long haul. Short term damage is nonexistent. I have treated 2 hats with alcohol, and it definetely removes the stiffener. I used regular rubbing alcohol, but whiskey, or even denatured might work. Just wear gloves if you go the denatured route. It is poisonious. Some stiffener can be washed out with water, but the sort that I apply after purchase is impervious to water. Fedora

[Marcus Brody]

Hmm, showering with my Fed on a few times seemed to remove a lot of the stiffner. My hat is floppy enough to get blown into my face if it's windy enough. I also like to occasionally put my hat in my backpack when I go to school, it works wonders on the brim.

[Chamorro]

Yep, alcohol, it works. I just don't know if it hurts the felt over the long haul. Short term damage is nonexistent. I have treated 2 hats with alcohol, and it definetely removes the stiffener. I used regular rubbing alcohol, but whiskey, or even denatured might work. Just wear gloves if you go the denatured route. It is poisonious. Some stiffener can be washed out with water, but the sort that I apply after purchase is impervious to water. Fedora

Hey Fedora,

How do you apply the alchohol? Directly or do you dab it on with a rag or paper towel or something? How wet should it get? Is there a problem with the color running? Is there any streaking? This is seems to be the way to go if it does remove all the stiffener.

[Fedora]

You got to literally wash the hat in the stuff. I used a whole bottle(99 cents). I just poured it in a plastic pan large enough to hold the hat, and dipped it in it. The only color that bled out was blueish green. Still scratching my head over that one. It removed every bit of the stiffener. In fact, it was too floppy in the brim area. I added a bit, just a little bit, of stiffener later on. I left the crown as is, soft and floppy. Fedora

[Henri Defense]

Ya know, I just want to take a moment here to make a point. I am sitting here reading 'bout you fellows trying ever so hard in getting the perfect hat and don't get me wrong there isn't a thing bad about that! But my point I wish to make, which is entirly my own personal feelings mind you...is that, is all this necessary? I mean, when you were a kid, did you care if his hat had a reverse taper, or a brown ribbon verses a black verses a brownish-black? Did it matter that the felt was soft and floppy? No as long as it was close, you loved it more than life it self (ok maybe that a little much but it's for emphasis) I have a regular FED, in the form of LC and I couldn't be any happier! I mean, yes it would be nice to have a PB some day or an Optimo but what I have I love! I don't really care if it's not 100% accurate, it's a fedora! I know..once I get older (and have money) I'll probably be the same...(heaven forbid! ) I mean, isn't have a hat that you love what really matters. Sure the ribbon is not quite right, and the felt is a little thick...my first fedora was grey! I didn't care, it was the best thing in the world!! I know some people like accuracey, I do too but to me there is an extreme, a limit. I mean, the only way to actually get it 100% accurate is to break into Lucasfilm vault and steal the real thing. Just having that fur felt fedora, brown, with a LC pinch is more than enough. It's the spirit of the adventure, the thrill of how that hat looked on Harry's head that made us want one, but does it really matter if it's a 1/5 of a inch to small or 3/77 too tall? I don't think so but then again...that's just me

Henri

ps
I'd like to tip my hat to you fine fellows for you hard work, and define research, it's not easy, I just wanted to express my views. Thank you!