Club Obi Wan

Hi all! For all you folks who know a thing or two about the inner workings of a fedora, I was wondering if I might ask what your opinions on stiff felt versus soft felt would be? And this doesn't just have to be limited to the Indy fedora either...

Using two fedoras made from the exact same beaver felt for example, I realize that the stiffness/softness would depend on the amount on stiffner that is used on the felt. However, are there any REAL pros and cons for how soft or how stiff the felt is? Or is it more of just an aesthetic difference?

i believe stiff felt will fight the natural tendencey to taper better. also, what you're hat looks like on your hat rack will be what it'll look like on your head....you can shape it to your hearts content and it'll look the same on your head as it did in your hands.

soft felt will spring to life with character once it sits on your head and shapes to your noggin's curvature. it blows with the wind (kinda like the scene where indy is on the arabian horse on the ridge). you rarely get the same look twice with a really soft fed which is character in itself.

i believe the choice is enirely preferrence by the hat wearer

Basically if you want to put your hat on and know what it'll look like in pictures, go with stiff. If you want to put your hat on and get a surprise when you see your photos, go with soft. Is that it, G?

He is right though... I'm inclined to agree with Indiana G.

In Christ,
Shane

Looks aren't everything... althought I agree with what's been said so far. The thing is, the whole soft or stiff issue is a sliding scale, not one or the other. A bit of stiffener is good to help keep the shape, but I want the hat soft enough to shape with my hands and also soft enough to conform to my head shape at least some. Really stiff hats that don't give at all can be uncomfortable. So comfort should be very important. How stiff is comfortable for you? Then ask if you want it softer than that. Because no matter how nice a hat looks, if it's not pleasant to wear it... what's the point?

it's my belief that the big hooded cowling-like bend on the brim on the non-bow side is made by bashing the hat non turned and then twisting the turn in it...you can get that nicely with a soft hat. in a stiff hat, you'll have to steam it in.

my first hat, a todd's hj was very soft. it was already bashed with this curve but unturned. if i turned it, raiders style, this would be more pronounced like what you see on the screen. if i turned it the other way, the bash looked more like an even tod snap brim......it's funny how much playing you can do when the hat is soft.

i'm a firm believer in having enough stiffener to mold your hat brim. if you don't have enough and you have to add stiffener via a spray (as that is the only way i am accustomed to applying it), it makes the felt look ratty gotta have a good foundation of stiffener at the start and then let her loosen up cairo style. (this advertisement has been payed in whole or in part by the screen accurate stitch nazi camp

I had a fedora that was quite soft, and the brim could never hold up. I had supposed "hatters" tell me to spray the brim with sugar water to stiffen it up - and all it really did was ruin the hat, and attract lots of bugs on hot days while hiking. Of course this was years ago when I didn't know better.
I don't miss those wasps.

I had supposed "hatters" tell me to spray the brim with sugar water to stiffen it up - and all it really did was ruin the hat, and attract lots of bugs on hot days while hiking.

Now that is funny!! I do imagine it would make the hat taste better if you ever had to eat it.

On the stiffener issue, it is a matter of personal preferene. I find that a medium soft hat( hat hat with a little stiffener) is the best of both worlds. But the medium soft hat for me, needs more of the stiffener in the crown, and less in the brim. Now, this is normally the exact opposite of how hats are generally made. Most hats have more in the brim than the crown.

The reason that I like less in the brim is because the stiffness affects the way the hat feels on your head. Too stiff and the hat does not give to your head shape, which lends comfort. A stiff hat, being uncomfortable, comes not from the stiffness of the crown so much as the brim. The brim is what makes the hat hold the shape of the opening. As long as there is some stiffener here.

Now, a really soft hat in crown and brim is the most comfortable hat you will ever put on your head. These were called self conforming hats in the days of yesteryear. Prior to the self conforming hat, many hats that were in vogue were stiff. In order to get these hats to fit comfortably, the hatter used that huge contraption call a conformateur, and its companion, the formillion. The conformateur recorded the shape of your head, with every bump and knot, including which oval you head was, etc. It really was an exact copy of your head, at the point of where your hat normally rested when wearing it.

They would take that shape and use the formillion to copy it. The formillion was then put inside the finished hat, and the brim was heated and a tolliker(hat tool) was used to imprint this exact shape of your head into the stiff hat. Once the brim cooled, the formillion was taken out, and voila' you had a stiff hat that now fit your head exactly.
Western hatters still use these ancient machines to this day as they deal mostly in stiff hats.

I have had a hatter tell me that he even uses the conformateur and formillion on his soft hats. Of course, a soft hat would never ever maintain the shape that was put into it, using the formillion, but apparently his world of physics is not the same as the world that I live in. A self comforming hat did not need the contraptions, as the old hatters were aware of, and very pleased with. Less time in fitting hats.

A good trick that was used at one time for fitting a stiff brimmed hat to a knotty head can still be used with very good results. But it requres getting a hot head for a few minutes.

Heat up the stiff brim really well so it is hot, but not yet scorching, and then pull that softened brimmed hat over your head, and wear it until it cools. Repeat, if necessary. This does the same job as the formillion. Your stiff brimmed hat will fit the best that it ever fit, and will be very comfortable.

But, as I said, for me, I like em medium soft. A too soft hat while very comfortable, loses its creases, or rather the creases are changed from a twig brushing against the crown, or a stiff breeze even. A too stiff hat, especially one with a real stiff brim seems to not "give" with the wind and comes off your head too easily. I hate chasing hats. But, that same too stiff brim is great in a hard rain. There are trade offs here folks. So, my fav brim has enough stiffener to give with the wind, and also enough to keep the rain from making it droop. On the crown, I like enough to maintain my crease jobs, so I am not constantly having to put it back in. And face it. In modern felt, a little stiffener actually helps the hat from tapering as fast. The shellac fills spaces between the fibers that helps hinder shrinkage. Hinder it, not stop it. Fedora

I like hats to be pretty stiff. Maybe not to the point of being bulletproof, but soft "dress felt" has never appealed to me. I want a hat to keep it's shape.

What about felt density? I have had some hats with felt that was REALLY dense, and I couldn't really blow through it, and then I have had felt that was not nearly so dense, and I could blow through it like it wasn't even there.

I like a soft, dense felt hat. The ones that give easily, but snap right back to their original shape when the dents are pushed out.

Fedora is probably laughing at me now, as 10 years ago he couldn't FORCE a soft felt hat on me.

Times change.

Regards! Michaelson

I find moderate amounts of stiffener, in both crown and brim, to be an extremely useful shaping agent. Wholeheartedly agree that a stiff brim is the antithesis to comfort, unless the hat has otherwise been shaped to one's head.

Now, the question, what is available beside the Scouts product? There must be something with a bit more "umpf" than that spray.

Sincerely,

[quote="Fedora]A good trick that was used at one time for fitting a stiff brimmed hat to a knotty head can still be used with very good results. But it requres getting a hot head for a few minutes.

Heat up the stiff brim really well so it is hot, but not yet scorching, and then pull that softened brimmed hat over your head, and wear it until it cools. Repeat, if necessary. This does the same job as the formillion. Your stiff brimmed hat will fit the best that it ever fit, and will be very comfortable. "][quote

fedora, that is a great idea. I just bought a Nutria Quality Stetson that has an extremely stiff brim and a very soft crown. It isn't very comfortable to wear because of the brim. I'm going to try your idea.

regards fedoralover

i just wanted to post a "hot head" experience that i had. steve made for me a very.....very soft rabbit ab. everytime i would bash the brim to my liking, i'd put it on and the softness of the hat would deform the brim away from what i liked.....it made for alot of messing around. one thing i tried was to steam the brim while wearing it.....not a good idea, but i was tired and couldn't go to bed with an imperfect hat......i got a nice steam burn across my cheek and forehead......that will wake you up!!!

anyways, i fixed the hat by ironing the brim to activate the stiffener in the felt....now she's good to go. she is still a very soft crown hat but has a nice stiff brim.....the way i like it

Thanks guys, this really answers my question. I'm getting a new, non-Indy fedora, and this pretty much settles how much stiffener I'll ask for. Always being a big fan of soft dress hats, I think I'll take Fedora's advice with getting a tad more stiffener in the crown so as not to worry about the shape, while still getting that nice soft feel.

I'll also be sure to remember Indiana G's advice and keep hot pointy things away from my face... And uh, I'll pass on the sugar water...

Now the trick is to see if a certain hatter who'll be making this new fedora applies the stiffener himself!

A hatter told me that extra stiff is for cowboy hats.

I just thought of something that I found amusing. When I was talking with Harrison's costumer, he mentioned to me that he was the costumer on the old Gunsmoke series. They had a low budget, and so would just rent the hats for the guest stars and extras that changed from week to week. They would use the same hats for these guys and just change up the creases and the shape of the brim. Guess what he said they used for stiffener? You are not gonna believe it................BEER. This floored me, but I mean, somehow this stuff worked. I can only imagine the smell though. I guess when everyone was in Miss Kitty's saloon, the Long Branch, it really did smell like a real saloon instead of a set. Fedora

Fedora wrote:I just thought of something that I found amusing. When I was talking with Harrison's costumer, he mentioned to me that he was the costumer on the old Gunsmoke series. They had a low budget, and so would just rent the hats for the guest stars and extras that changed from week to week. They would use the same hats for these guys and just change up the creases and the shape of the brim. Guess what he said they used for stiffener? You are not gonna believe it................BEER. This floored me, but I mean, somehow this stuff worked. I can only imagine the smell though. :lol: I guess when everyone was in Miss Kitty's saloon, the Long Branch, it really did smell like a real saloon instead of a setl . :lol: Fedora

Cool info Fedora.. I met Ken Curtis back in the early 80's, he was a neat guy. Really nice and was so considerate to a fairly young fan.
I ask him about his hat, he told me he got it out of a prop box, and all through the years it took on the shape of the 'Festus' hat that we all remember.It was in rough shape when I saw it it had tape on both of the front curls on the brim . and was patched in several places on the crown, but on film this would not have been noticeable.
Thanks for sharing with us!!!

Fedora wrote:* * * Guess what he said they used for stiffener? You are not gonna believe it................BEER. This floored me, but I mean, somehow this stuff worked. I can only imagine the smell though.

Do you think it is better than Scout's? At least it would taste better.

Sincerely,

Fedora wrote:I just thought of something that I found amusing. When I was talking with Harrison's costumer, he mentioned to me that he was the costumer on the old Gunsmoke series. They had a low budget, and so would just rent the hats for the guest stars and extras that changed from week to week. They would use the same hats for these guys and just change up the creases and the shape of the brim. Guess what he said they used for stiffener? You are not gonna believe it................BEER. This floored me, but I mean, somehow this stuff worked. I can only imagine the smell though. I guess when everyone was in Miss Kitty's saloon, the Long Branch, it really did smell like a real saloon instead of a set. Fedora

hmmmm wonder if that was a light or dark beer....

I like my hat's to be rather soft and comfortable. "Stiff" hat's always feel so formal..

With reference to TV & film hats, I think they may have used vegetable oil to simulate sweat stains...

And speaking of hats that were a real mess, a great example is the one worn by Buddy Ebsen as Jed Clampett. It had rips and holes and wrinkles and frayed edges all over it, and yet they looked exactly the same throughout the show's many seasons. He either wore just one hat, or the costumer was extremely good at replicating them.

Another good example is Ed Norton's hat worn by Art Carney in "The Honeymooners." Exactly the same throughout the series.

Jack

hmmmm wonder if that was a light or dark beer....

I would imagine a light beer for the light colored hats, and a dark beer for the darker colored one............ Sorry, I just had to say that. Fedora

Steve, I guess I'm a dark color hat type of guy.

See, Chewie, your "Pepsi" hat was just getting a stiffener treatment, that's all.

To clear the air

Stiffness is determined by two seperate factors. One is a stiffner put into the felt. The other is the denseness of the felt.

A hat with mor stiffener will taper as the stiffener wears out and the hat softens. A hat with a denser felt will soften with wear and not taper.

Over the past two years I have been refining my process to make a denser felt. To contimue the felt process through my production of the hat. I can now start with the same beaver dress hat felt as other hatters, and mine end up stiffer. One commented that he never got near that much body (a term common wiht western hatters) out of a dress felt. He kept asking what type of stiffener I used and found it hard to believe there was none. Now he sends me his orders for dress hat.

I have gotten to the point that I can even make felts denser while I am renovating them.

A dens felt will feel stiff at the start. As it softens up it will still hold a shape, and will taper less.

Jimmy

Forgot about Conformatuer and Formillian

As I make both stiff and soft hats I may be able to shed some light.

I do not use a tollicker along with a formillian. Doing this only works on a small portion of the brim at a time.

lets start with the fact that conforming a hat has very little to do with the crown. It is all about the brim. I know you are setting the crown and sweat band to fit the head, but you do this by changing the brim.

When you take a hat and put it on a head with a different oval, it distorts the brim. This is basic geometry. a hat brim is to concentric ovals. There is a set distance between the two ovals. when the center oval is moved it effects the outer oval.

In western hats the brim is stiff. This stiffness causes the brim to want to hold its shape. When the hat is shaped without conforming, the stiffness in the brim will cause the hat to want to return to its original oval. In a soft hat this is also the case, although mush less noticably. Also, in a soft hat the brim distors more easily. When someone with a very long oval, or a very round oval, puts on a soft hat the brim distorts. Also, if you have a bump in a bad place on your head it can distort, or be uncomfortable.

Now how to fix these problems.
Using a formillion with a tollicker will not fix them, though it may lessen them. When you work a brim with a tollicker around a formillion you only work a portion of the brim at a time. as you move to the next portion the one you have already worked can shift and make what you are doing less effective

If, however, you press the brim in a flange under a sand bag while you have the formillion in the hat then you effect the whole brim at once. You are adjusting the outer oval to match the inner oval. This means that the brim will not distort and will look perfect when you put it on. It also means that the hat will also want to return to the new oval, the one that fits the head. This in turn means less reblocking as the hat will want to return to the shape that fits. Also means that someone else can wear a hat and when you get it back it will still fit you. Soft hats have that perfect brim that dips just the right amount. Stiff hats fit as soon as they are on your head, not after an hour of wear that gives you a head ache.

I do not conform all of my soft hats, just the ones that need it do to style or head shape, or if the customer request it.

Jimmy

I do not use a tollicker along with a formillian. Doing this only works on a small portion of the brim at a time.

True, but the guy that I watched doing it, heated the entire brim on his heater(as opposed to steam) and then he quickly worked the tolliker around the hat with formillion inside. He then let it cool and repeated.

Putting the formillon in the the hat and then sandbagging it seems to be the best way though, but to really get that clean brim break, you may still need to use the tolliker to put it in sharply. That is what they are designed for, at least this particular tolliker.

Needless to say, hatters vary in the way they do anything to hats. You generally make them as you are shown, like any other craft.

The formillion tolliker technique MAY have been what the hatters used that did not own a sandbagger. I am not sure. I really only know what was said in that 1919 hatmaking book that some of us own, plus one hatter that I know. He always used to heat up just the brims and then use the formillion and tolliker. And it was done AFTER the flangeing, I think your way would work better though. The heat and weight of the sandbagger seems like it would do a better job. But, I don't make those sorts of hats....so.... Fedora

JPdesign wrote:* * * Over the past two years I have been refining my process to make a denser felt. To contimue the felt process through my production of the hat. I can now start with the same beaver dress hat felt as other hatters, and mine end up stiffer. * * * A dens felt will feel stiff at the start. As it softens up it will still hold a shape, and will taper less. Jimmy

Jimmy:

Can we assume this applies to the rabbit body, as well. I attempted to "stretch" the 5 1/2 crown rabbit Raiders you sent me. Despite steam, water, soaking, pulling, tugging, and doing about everything an ordinary hobby person could do, I could not gain a 1/4 inch in that crown.

After it dried, that hat remained at 5 1/2 inches. If the 6 inch crown you are making for me, is as "dense" and resilient, I cannot imagine that hat needing a reshaping/blocking for a very long time.

Sincerely,

Aeris_Canon wrote:A bit more to this hat stuff than a home block and some steam, huh?

And I thought, "I had it all figured out."

That JPD was surprising; every other hat (Akubra, PB, Stetson) had a "bunch" of give. I am now humbled. Soundly trashed by a piece of felt. Apparently time to retire the "Jiffy Steamer."

Perhaps take up whipmaking. Heard that was easy.

Sincerely,

and just think, I can get about an inch more out of the hat.

Jimmy

Boots.

Western? Jump? Gladiator? How about X-mas Elf?

Jimmy: If you can squeeze another inch out of the 5 1/2 crown I have, you, "are the man!" As I said, of the felts I have seen, your hat presently garners the top spot for the "toughest/stretch resistant."

Sincerely,