Club Obi Wan

Not trying to start a war here, but is there any difference between these two?

Adios,

Satipo

this is what my impressions are:

todd's HJ's are from their factory with the present hat block (as seen on LC) which todd orders in with less stiffener. it's a great hat for the LC and TOD look but not so much for a raiders look as it can't hold the bash indefinitely and the hat block is not correct.

magnoli's HJ's get the AB overhaul on them so that you get a raiders hat out of the deal. i have been informed in the past that the 2 hats are coming out of the same factory with the same felt. i have owned numerous hj's from todd and an hj straight from SAB and have to say that the SAB hat feels thicker than todd's...it may be because of more stiffener but i could swear that the SAB offering is thicker. the SAB hat is the hat that magnoli will create his raiders hat out of. todd's ribbon is accurate to LC whereas magnoli changes out the crappy light brown ribbon that comes standard on an SAB hj for a beautiful raiders ribbon.

hope this helps.

That's perfect, Indiana G! Thanks for such a thorough answer!

Adios,

Satipo

Indiana G wrote:
i have owned numerous hj's from todd and an hj straight from SAB and have to say that the SAB hat feels thicker than todd's...it may be because of more stiffener but i could swear that the SAB offering is thicker.

hope this helps.

I have one of todds HJs and one of the SAB HJ's as well and i have always thought the same thing. The SAB felt just looks and feels thicker then todds do.

_ wrote:You say the Magnoli lid gets an AB overhaul? Do they actually go to Steve???

Yes, they do.

Regards! Michaelson

those are my impressions. if i am wrong, i'm hoping fedora or puppetboy can chime in to correct me.

i know that fedora has handled both the sab and hj stock offerings so he could confirm my claims of the felt. with the hj's that i have, todd's hj would be better suited for warmer days than the sab hj for sure. i can pull these hats out of the closet and no one would be able to tell me that its the same felt.....perhaps the same felt body initially but the finished felt product is definitely not the same....i''d be willing to go that far

there is a wait involved for both these products....magnoli's wait is longer but the product is superior if you are looking for a raiders fedora. if you want a quicker turnaround time, go with todd. for what todd has to work with on the existing hj block, he makes one #### of a raiders hat for sure. there is a small bit of taper in the crown which is why its not an ideal raiders hat. my first hat was from todd and he bashed that hat really nicely...but maybe the fact that it was one size too big helped in getting that raiders look

Ok, well, there's a little more to the story.

The hats that Todd gets are finished hats (open crown) built at HJ, and then bashed by Todd to resemble Indy's hat.

The Magnoli HJ arrives at Steve's place as felt bodies (unconstructed). Steve then does several things to the felt to combat taper such as..."killing the felt" which is a a series of steps that stabalize the felt to help prevent premature shrinkage and tapering. Then he repounces the felt to a much better finish than is standard from HJ. Most importantly the hat body is then reblocked into the taller, Raiders-shaped crown using Steve's Raiders block(only Steve and Marc have this block to my knowlage). The brim is then dimensionally cut using a template from the original hat by Mr. Swales. The ribbon is replaced with THE accurate ribbon and bow. Again, Steve and Marc sourced the ribbon from the og manufacturer and are the only hatters to use the og ribbon. The sweatband is then handsewn above brim break (for extra strength and to allow for future reblocking). A machine sewn sweatband peforates the brim meaning that if you tried to pull a machine sewn hat over a block, the brim could tear right off. The liner is handsewn (not glued as with stock HJs) And lastly Steve will style the hat to match any scene you want (turn included).

So really the choice is (and I don't mean to knock Todd here at all) an off the rack HJ bashed by Todd. Or, a HJ hat built from the ground up to be THE perfect Indiana Jones hat.

Johnny

p.s. In the intrest of full disclosure I almost ordered a Todd HJ before Indy released the Magnoli HJ. After ordering the Magnoli HJ I was very happy to learn that Steve was actually doing the work on these hats. This is the closest we will ever get to wearing the actual hat off of Indiana Jones head. I can't wait to get mine!!! -J

Steve then does several things to the felt to combat taper such as..."killing the felt" which is a a series of steps that stabalize the felt to help prevent premature shrinkage and tapering.

The felt is stabelized, yes, but the "killing the felt" or pre-aging as we also call it, is an AB exclusive

The difference? - The preaging process requires some truly high quality felt to start with and takes round about 2 hours to do per hat. I've tried it on a rabbit felt once (just to see if it would work at all) and had to trash the hat later on. Funny, as it doesn't hurt a higher quality felt at all

Regards,

Marc

Aeris_Canon wrote:Like I said, it'll be good to see a few more of these as they start turning up. Look forward to seeing your hat, Johnny. Be sure to post pics of it when it arrives.

I will also post mine... which I hope I get before I forget what your HJ is like, AC, so I can sort of compare. It was the reblocked Todd's that I saw at the Summit, right?

Cool, stabelized then. Got jumbled up on my terms.

Thanks Marc,

Johnny

Sorry, I didn't intend to say superior to or better than (and certanly not better than an AB or AB Delux). I just intended to say accurate. Will any HJ stand up to the kind of punishment Indy put it to? No. But remember that it was a rabbit HJ on Harison's noggin in Raiders. So in that way a Steve built HJ is the the closest to the actual hat in Raiders of the Lost Ark that most of us will ever get to wear.

Oh, I'll post an extensive review. Look for it under a heading like..."Johnny Fedora's Magnoli Clothers/Adventurebilt Herbert Johnson Fedora: Peru, Idol Grab Scene Hat Defined!"

Johnny

Johnny Fedora wrote: But remember that it was a rabbit HJ on Harison's noggin in Raiders. So in that way a Steve built HJ is the the closest to the actual hat in Raiders of the Lost Ark that most of us will ever get to wear.

Very true, no doubt about that.

Aeris_Canon wrote:GCR, how long did your HJ last before it petered out on you?

But...but...but, I never owned one.


BUSTED! Oh...wait, that's your line.

Seriously though, I've been around this hobby long enough to know that the reports of HJ's tapering up quickly and severely FAR outweigh the reports of folks having their HJ's hold up to regular wear and tear over the years. Does that mean all HJ's are rubbish? No. But it's enough to make me weary of sporting one in a rainstorm, or exposing it to any other sort of moisture, if I owned one. Truth be told, that in and of itself is enough reason for me not to buy one in the first place (hence my decision to switch my order with Marc to another ABD). I get a lot of mileage out of my hats, and wear them in all sorts of weather. It's more than just a costume piece or screen-accurate trophy for me.

I WILL say it's nice to see the HJ's becoming a viable option again, after being overpriced and inaccurate for so many years. I've seen a great many lately that have looked great, yours included AC (the reblock did wonders for that thing, eh?). But as nice as the HJ's look, they're just not my personal cup 'o tea these days.

-GCR

i believe steve touched on this when i posted my SAB hj. when i first got the thing it was floppy....scarey floppy to the point that i didn't think it would ever make it as an indy hat. i turned on the steam kettle (something aries loves me doing ) and steaming the hat actually activated the stiffener in it and allowed it to hold the shape that i wanted. this lead to betting that the sab hats come to the consumer 'dry blocked' (i believe this is the term that fedora used). hats made in this manner will shrink faster than superman in a cold swimming pool

Just one thing I want to point out. Aeris got his HJ from me in either March or April of this year and it has needed to be reblocked allready. Not really sure why it needed the reblocking so quickly. However I can tell you that it was VERY difficult to keep a half way decent Raiders shape during the VERY short period of time that I had it.

Right out of the Box



Creased





I do have one of Marc's HJ's on the way here right now. Should be here any day



G-MANN

It's interesting to hear the various opinions of the HJ. I had an incident last week where one customer was outraged that his HJ was TOO STIFF. He called it a cowboy hat and wanted to return it. A day later another customer was upset because it was TOO SOFT - he wanted it like his Stetson.

Some people like them soft and floppy, some like them stiff like a Stetson so that the shape stays razor sharp and right-off-the-press perfect all the time. But the quest for a SOFT hat was one of the things that started Steve on his quest to build his own, if I remember correctly.

The HJ's I get come from the wholesale division - their factory is in Cambridge. That's where they mass produce hats for the retail trade, as well as their police and military clients. I don't think they are the same as the ones that come from SAB in London. I have seen those and they look and feel like a Dorfman Pacific (at least the few I have seen. They do come in a very nice box, though). My impression was that the SAB hats were thicker. What I gather is that most of you prefer thin felt.

I hope this helps.

Todd

Aeris_Canon wrote:So there's a long delay on these or? Kind of a bummer. But, yes, very interested to see these. Hope you get that one soon.

Well, they have to pass through Steve's shop first, then he sends them, in bulk to Magnoli.... and as we all know, Steve is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. Hopefully he will have a shipment out by the time Magnoli is back from vacation, but we'll see. Think of the Magnoli HJ as the "Expess AB".

Quote:
"Well, they have to pass through Steve's shop first, then he sends them, in bulk to Magnoli.... and as we all know, Steve is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. Hopefully he will have a shipment out by the time Magnoli is back from vacation, but we'll see. Think of the Magnoli HJ as the "Expess AB"."

I understand U.S. orders are shipped directly from Steve. Can't remember where I read that, though.

Jack

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

Aeris_Canon wrote:So there's a long delay on these or? Kind of a bummer. But, yes, very interested to see these. Hope you get that one soon.

Well, they have to pass through Steve's shop first, then he sends them, in bulk to Magnoli.... and as we all know, Steve is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. Hopefully he will have a shipment out by the time Magnoli is back from vacation, but we'll see. Think of the Magnoli HJ as the "Expess AB".

Hardly. The felt is nothing like the rabbit Steve used to use.

Abner1925 wrote:

Chewbacca Jones wrote:

Aeris_Canon wrote:So there's a long delay on these or? Kind of a bummer. But, yes, very interested to see these. Hope you get that one soon.

Well, they have to pass through Steve's shop first, then he sends them, in bulk to Magnoli.... and as we all know, Steve is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. Hopefully he will have a shipment out by the time Magnoli is back from vacation, but we'll see. Think of the Magnoli HJ as the "Expess AB".

Hardly. The felt is nothing like the rabbit Steve used to use.

I have a Magnoli HJ on order as well. Indy made it seam like the order process was only weeks when I inquired about it. Not the months that the AB wait has. I will keep my fingers crossed and hope to hear from Magnoli when he is back from vacation.

Cheers,
Owj88

Here's the original discussion/announcement when the Magnoli HJ's came out. This is from the vendor's section:

viewtopic.php?t=20387

Regards! Michaelson

Indy Magnoli wrote:The block used on these will be identical to what you would see on an Adventurebilt.

These hats will be exponetially more water repellant than the current HJs. You will be able to wear them in mild rain without any worries about shrinkage or taper.

The brims will be cut by hand to match the old Swales cut. But, again, full customization will be available as well.

And, just to clear up the confusion of the double posts... Marc and I are doing these totally independent of one another.

...and some good news for the Americans; these will all be shipping from the US to save on postage!

Kind regards,
Indy

This might clear a few things up...

Johnny

Thanks, Michaelson & Johnny-- I knew I had read about the U.S. shipping somewhere.

Jack

No problem, my friend.

I HATE when I remember stuff, but can't recall just WHERE I read it!

Regards! Michaelson

May as well chime in here. I do get the HJs in pieces, and they are the same as Todd's a thinner rabbit felt with hardly any stiffener, if any at all. And on the ones Indy has sent to me, the ribbon is the same as what me and Marc use on our own line of hats. I can't tell the difference as it is the super dark brown ribbon. Perhaps Indy specified this? Not sure.


I actually had to learn a new technique in being able to reblock these new hats, as I can't block them like other hats. Generally, I would take a new hat body, or an old hat body if it was a reblock, and after it was stripped down, the next step would be to place the hat on a tool that covers the brim, and then it goes on the steam pot. After steaming just the crown for a coupleof minutes, I would pull it off and snatch it down over the wood block, tie off the bottom with hatters cord and let it dry on the block, generally outside when it is warm weather.

The first new HJ I did for Indy, I ruined the hat!! And I was taken totally by surprise. All other hats would just get hot and steamy and allow for the stretching that happens when you convert a tapered hat into a non tapered hat, and would stretch fairly easy over the new block shape. The HJs we get are shocked by the steam, and right before your eyes, the crown is shocked and immediately shrinks from the stock 5 3/4 open crown state down 5 inches, in the wink of an eye. I had to jerk it out after 20 seconds!! And then, it would not stretch back out. So, alternitive methods had to be employed.

What finally worked was using the next larger body to make the hat. I use a 59 to make a 58. And, I can't steam the body in the steamer as it would shock and shrink. And this explains why the stock HJs shrink and taper so easily if the get damp, or if you let them sit where it is hot. I really feel, the reason for this is in the way the current HJs are made. I think they are mechanically forced and stretched over a block, without steam, and therein lies the reason they taper so easiy. I think Marc was even told this by HJ in a conversation with them last year. And I don't think they ever iron the hat on the block, which is so important when making hats. The high heat and pressure from the iron is what "sets" the shape on any hat. Without it, the felt is just a stretched out hat, that was never stabilized and set.

I stabilize the hat after the reblock by ironing it, using a hatter's sponge(sheepskin with fur still attached) to slightly dampen the body before I iron it. On my own hats, I generally iron them many, many times, shrinking the hat on the block to the final desired crown height. Many times on my own hats, that last 1/8 of an inch reduction is hard to achieve. It can litearlly take me an hour to get that last bit of shrinkage. But once you do get it there, it is as stable as any modern felt can be. Factory HJs do not do this, and without it, you end up with unstable felt. And unstable felt shrinks and tapers very easily. You really want the hat to do all of its shrinking while on the block, not after. That is the secret, and the key that some hatters either don't know about, or skip it in order to get hats made fast. A quickly made had is a poor quaility hat, no matter how good the felt is. You can't take shortcuts, if you want to make the best hats possible from a given felt.

I really honestly do not know how well the Indy Mag/AB HJ does in the taper department when compared to stock HJs. Theorectically, they should be more taper resistant,because I am able to somewhat stabilize teh felt, and I do add water repellant treatment to these hats to help keep the felt dry. But, I did notice on my own HJ, that once I reblocked it and ironed it, it lasted a long time before I had to reblock it again. Much longer than other non treated HJs.

I really feel that if SAB was having these hats made per the old way of making hats, we would be seeing a much more stable hat from them. I think they are using bodies that are too small to begin with, as bodies come in different sizes, and heights. Then they mechanically stretch out the dry felt and make a hat from it. The too small, but stretched out body is just stretched too much in the production process, and of course, any over stretched felt is gonna shrink and taper the first time it gets damp, or overly hot.

The good thing about Todd's and Indy's hats is the felt, that mimics the Raiders fedora rabbit felt the best. But any non stiffened rabbit felt will do this as well. While it mimics it really well, it is a far cry from what was used on the original Raiders fedora. It is similiar in looks but is not of the same quality as the original film hat. The fact is, the felt from that era was just better than what they are curently using, and I would bet they used the old way of making hats when the Raiders hat was made. The current HJs would not have cut it if used for the new film hat. The older HJs were much better suited for the rigors of filming an adventure flick that featured a good bit of water and heat as witnessed in N.M.(I heard it was 107 in N.M.) As I said earlier, they would have had to have bought a hundred hats for the 4 monthis film schedule if HJ had been picked. The HJ is no longer adventure hat material. And that is sad. That SAB could make a good stable hat is a no brainer. That they do not is what puzzles me. Fedora

FYI My second hat ordered from Todd's came unbashed. Todd is looking into this issues as it was the second hat sent out that a customer complained it arrived unbashed. But I would not let it deter anyone from ordering one.

Sorry for the delay on your hat, AC. Did you reply to our e-mail to let us know that you wanted it un-bashed? We ususally ship as soon as we get the green light from you.

It is a problem we face constantly. Many people don't read the whole page (they don't scroll down) and they never follow the links for styling. They just look at the picture and go "yup! That's what I want!" and press the button. Of course, a page full of pictures of an un-bashed HJ are not too exciting, so it does get confusing. 9 1/2 times out of 10, they do want it styled and didn't understand that they had to order it. That's why we always wait for a confirmation e-mail before we send it un-bashed.

You don't know how many times we have to answer the question "how much is it" because people don't scroll down the page.