Club Obi Wan

I Thought you all might enjoy a sneak peak at one of the “new” bullwhips being used in Indiana Jones 4, photos courtesy of IndianaJones.com




Just don’t ask who made the bullwhips, Got it!

Dan

The transition covering on the bullwhip handle looks awfully heavy compared to a DM. Too bad the video didn't show the turkshead knot at the base. Long handle. It almost looks like a 16-plait whip. Makes sense that Indy's bullwhip would "evolve" over the 20 years between Last Crusade and 1957. Nice to see that his jacket and hat haven't changed much.

well,
the ring knot and the thickness of the tip,
all make it look like an Australian pattern whip.

Definitely. Given thewhip coach involved in the production, I have a pretty good guess who supplied them, but I cannot say here as per the "no vendor talk" rule. Next May I will be free to discuss the whip at length (pun intended!), so we'll pick it up then. Happy cracking everyone! )

Oh well, first the boring looking hat, then the boring looking jacket - now the ugly non-Indy-style whip. Can't wait for this movie

Technically the short handled American style bullwhip made in the Australian patter IS considered the Indy style bullwhip by most whip makers, so I wouldn’t necessarily call it “ugly” just a bit different then the ones you’re used to seeing.

Keep in mind that there is still more to come on this and there will be other bullwhips used in the film beside that one.

Dan

I know what you mean - and I'm sure that's a perfectly decent bullwhip. I'm just very fussy about the whip, and to me, that's not Indy's whip.

Is it too much for me to make an educated guess at the maker of the whip in the picture? Will I be banned if I do? Cause I'm pretty sure I know who made that whip, and I'm kind of dissapointed that it wasn't made by the guy who I thought would be making the Indy whips.

-Adam

And is it me or is there a huge gap in the braid in that pic?

Best not to mention Names, we are taking the no vendor discussion rule very seriously and I don’t want you getting in trouble with the Admins. I have a very good idea who you’re talking about and if true, then it would seem that there are two whip makers for this new film .

I see that gap too Whiskey, It might be where a strand has been dropped, hard to say as it looks like that whip has been pretty roughed up.

Dan

Well, as the cat is out of the bag.... it´s this one



I´ll have it back around October, Steven promised.

Best regards

JAN

That's it, Jan outed himself as the supplier...the production's goons are on their way.

Seriously though, as Dan said, let's please keep supposition and actual names out of the thread until we're cleared to do so.

Thanks.

Mike

If that's the whip I think it is, we are going to see some amazing whip action in this movie. As much as I love the traditional Indy style, there are some things you just need a longer handle for. All speculation aside, I love that the whip is more weathered looking and darker, as if it has really been on some adventures.

whiskyman wrote:Oh well, first the boring looking hat, then the boring looking jacket - now the ugly non-Indy-style whip. Can't wait for this movie

Well, since this Indy Bullwhip is in an Indy "Movie," it's actually is an Indy-style whip as of now.

Makes sense. Darker whip due to aging and or he bought a new 1. Afterall, I doubt he can keep the same whip the whole time. Not to mention I'm sure Indy was smart enough to upgrade to a new and improved whip or something. Its good enough for me.

I'm sorry, but what is this about not talking about things out here? Isn't this what this place is for? Come on. Not trying to sell anything here - but Anthony De Longis is the bullwhip guy and of course that looks like a ********* right? Okay now that that is out of the way...let's discuss. Feels a bit strange to me....Is Indy taking on Batman in this one?

DJN.......
viewtopic.php?t=22479

The fall on the movie whip doesn't appear to be white. I suppose it could be dirty. Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing a white fall on any of the previous whips, though I know it was. I guess it makes sense, since a white fall would look too new.

JKL
Ron

I wonder when they will allow vendors to talk?

Even better than Ripper's link above, there is a sticky/announcement at the top of THIS forum, Bullwhip: viewtopic.php?t=22487

IndyFan89, when they are legally allowed to talk, then it'll be up to them to post. The reasons why not before then are listed in the notifications linked by Ripper and myself above.

DJN, please edit your post to remove your guesses as BullWhipBorton, the moderator of this forum, asked you NOT to do in the first place.

Thank you.

I saw the post about vendors not talking etc...But we can talk about what we see in offical studio released clips, stills etc. right? And info about who is working on the film? All public and studio released material. There can't be anything wrong with that. As someone who works in the film biz - no one could be upset about talking about who is working on the film etc. And if they (said studio - producers - etc.) put a still or clip out there people will talk about it. Kinda the point.

So we can't talk about this stuff? Seriously? That is total BS. Who came up with this?

I can understand if someone was trying to sell something or giving away things about the upcoming film - but this kind of stuff - no one cares about. If they do - then I'm really scared about this film. Really.

I'm not re-interpreting the rules today, you can see the posted rule and the stated reasons, and were asked not to post your guesses. Right or wrong, would you mind cooperating with us a bit on this, and discussing it w/ the mods/admin OFFLINE (by PM) if you want to discuss it?

After they have a chance to look at this, if they think everything is kosher, they'll say fine, go ahead, but we'd appreciate it if you'd follow the stated rules as asked for now.

And as for the whip itself and the change...not a big fan. I see it as a bad omen. I hope I'm wrong. To me it says that they are not being truthful to the character - to the history - to what makes Indy, Indy. Let me explain.

The whip being different can't be that big of deal you say? Of course not. But then again - it is. Let's look at a recent example. John McClane of Die Hard fame. In all three previous movies, McClane carried a Beretta 92F. Seemed to work well for him there - saved his and numerous other lives many many times. Makes sense he'd probably stick with it. And whatever you think of the two sequels - the character of McClane was consistant. The wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Well in Live Free or Die Hard they decide to give McClane a new gun for no reason...and guess what? McClane's character isn't the same. He is now the active hero chasing down the bad guys - and is no longer the human action hero we fell in love with in the first film (and he's bald). He is now the indesructible superhero. And guess what - the film isn't a Die Hard film. The tiny little thing of changing up his carry of choice was a big indicator of how they were approaching the entire film and the character.

I just hope this isn't the case with Indy 4. No DM whip, no Dougie Slocombe....I'm just saying...

DJN, please edit your post to remove your guesses as BullWhipBorton, the moderator of this forum, asked you NOT to do in the first place.

Thank you.

Um...Those aren't guesses. Those are facts. All out in the public and released by the studio/producers etc...Anthony is the bullwhip trainer. Fact. It's no secret. Neither is his whip of choice.

If any of the mods have a problem with this - get in touch with me. If we can't even talk about publicly released info from the studio...I'm at a loss.

We’ve been specifically asked not to name names. It’s that simple.

Any one who knows anything about whips can spot a mile away who made the bullwhip pictured, that’s no secret. It’s just a picture of one bullwhip, many more where supplied for the movie, so don’t jump to conclusions about who’s making ALL the bullwhips. Be patient, there is a lot more going on then you know and it will come out in time.

The studio does not want the vendor information to be made public yet and to keep Indygear.com in good relations both Lucasfilm and with the vendors who signed confidentiality agreements we are honoring those requests.

Dan

Personally, if the prop is all that makes the character who he is, then either the character is shallow or the writing is bad. My feeling is it isn't the hat, the jacket, or the whip which makes Indy. It's his determination, perseverance, and human quirks which makes Indy the character so many people relate with. The year is 1957, I can't believe that in all his adventures (and misadventures) that he'd be left with the very same whip, hat, even jacket. If he uses these out in the field, when something needs to be replaced, he'd be practical and replace what needs to be replaced.

In Raiders he loses most of his gear by the time he boards the German sub. I don't think he was thinking, "Oh, great, life is over because I lost my hat and got my whip wet." I bet he was more concerned with getting Marion and the Ark back. Or am I wrong?

Dan, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Trust me - I hope I'm wrong. And of course I know character is much deeper than hat, jacket, whip etc...Just might be an indicator that's all I'm saying.

I hope all the best for this - and from what I've heard - many things I can't talk about here - I have very high hopes for it. Was just a bit strange to see all the pieces coming together and then to see that **** ***** whip there was a bit out of left field. I've known about Anthony for a while but didn't even think he would - well you know....I know about the double vendor thing and some other stuff too so I hope it's what I've heard. I should make it on set here soon so I'll try to report back anything that won't get me booted off here...

If you have ANY doubts, best to play it safe and DON'T say anything.

That gap to me looks like a blown strand, or broken, I should say. Especially given the location of it, I'm sure the whips used get pretty beat on.

Thank you, Bink, for saying what you did. The character isn't the uniform itself. Whatever the character happens to use in the movie, it's just an extension of his character. True, the uniform, outfit, gear, whatever you wanna call it, helps solidify the image, but the image doesn't make the character.
On the other hand, I do agree with what DJN said in regards to Bruce Willis' character in Die Hard. Looks as if he evolved a bit over time.

One thing's for sure, I never get too hyped up for any movie. Never expect too much from a movie, and just remember, it's entertainment. And don't sink the movie before it even comes out.

Steve.

Well, I guess a lot of people are gonna get mad at me: I personally love this new whip. Definitely one I plan on getting.

No need to jump to conclusions, is there? It's just a picture of a whip. That doesn't mean it's the one Indy will carry in the film. It could be a practice whip, the trainer's personal whip, a random whip that was on set and used for a photo op, or even -- gasp -- a whip used by another character, like a villain.

If Indy uses the style he's always used, hooray! If he uses this other very cool whip, hooray! If he uses one of each simultaneously, major hoooray! But in any event, hooray, because THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER INDIANA JONES MOVIE!!

dr. tyree wrote:No need to jump to conclusions, is there? It's just a picture of a whip. That doesn't mean it's the one Indy will carry in the film. It could be a practice whip, the trainer's personal whip, a random whip that was on set and used for a photo op, or even -- gasp -- a whip used by another character, like a villain.

If Indy uses the style he's always used, hooray! If he uses this other very cool whip, hooray! If he uses one of each simultaneously, major hoooray! But in any event, hooray, because THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER INDIANA JONES MOVIE!!

A very nice comment there. We all need to remember to wait to see the movie, and be happy about that. you may have your whip preferences folks, but we shouldn't get angery just because Indy has a different whip, assuming he actually does. I know that I will be getting one like this, as much for the color as for the fact that it's in the new Indy film.

That photo could very well be of a stunt man/double's leg, MK 7 and whip...

C3

dr. tyree wrote:If Indy uses the style he's always used, hooray! If he uses this other very cool whip, hooray! If he uses one of each simultaneously, major hoooray! But in any event, hooray, because THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER INDIANA JONES MOVIE!!

That's the most beautiful thing I've seen on this board in days (next to my avatar ). Thank you, doc. That's exactly what I think.

In Christ,
Shane

Well, I guess a lot of people are gonna get mad at me: I personally love this new whip. Definitely one I plan on getting.

You...monster!!!

No seriously, I agree with you. I'm no expert on the whips by any means, but I like the look of this new one. The handle looks a little different, but not bad. I like it.

Oh well, first the boring looking hat, then the boring looking jacket - now the ugly non-Indy-style whip. Can't wait for this movie

God, could you possibly be more negative? I like the look of this new gear. It's the old stuff, with a slightly new flavor, which I think fits, especially since this is set 19 years after the last one. :junior: -IJ

binkmeisterRick wrote:Personally, if the prop is all that makes the character who he is, then either the character is shallow or the writing is bad. My feeling is it isn't the hat, the jacket, or the whip which makes Indy. It's his determination, perseverance, and human quirks which makes Indy the character so many people relate with. The year is 1957, I can't believe that in all his adventures (and misadventures) that he'd be left with the very same whip, hat, even jacket. If he uses these out in the field, when something needs to be replaced, he'd be practical and replace what needs to be replaced.

In Raiders he loses most of his gear by the time he boards the German sub. I don't think he was thinking, "Oh, great, life is over because I lost my hat and got my whip wet." I bet he was more concerned with getting Marion and the Ark back. Or am I wrong?

You're exactly right. I mean, come on. He replaced his gun in each movie. His hat shape changed each time. His jacket changed each time. Belt, pants, socks, holster, bag strap. . . darn near EVERY aspect of his costume changed. But Indy did not. He was all p*ss and vinegar throughout the series, and I doubt that changes in the future.

Besides, why was this Web site created in the first place? It was so that people like us could come together and geek out on the most miniscule aspects of our heroe's costume(s). How many pages have been devoted to the stitching on a "screen accurate" Wested? Or how many on whether the bag strap has grooves or not and which is better? Personally I couldn't give a rat's behind if they change the costume up a tiny bit because it will provide fodder for new fresh debates for us.

This movie is the most exciting thing that could happen to nerds like us, whether it is terrible or fantastic. I know I'll still keep coming here regardless, even if it's only to say, "Hey guys, remember Indy IV? Man did it s*ck. Raiders forever!!!!"

Think of it like the Willie Scott phenomenon. She's cute. She's funny at times. It's easy to make fun of her.

But we'll always have Marion. . .

Cheers,
Chaos

DJN, I’ll be looking forward to hearing what you learn on your trip to the set. If you feel you can’t post it in the public forums, feel free to pvt me, I am always up for discussing whips.

Steve, I agree; I think any one expecting this new movie to be as good as Raiders of the Lost Ark is going to be disappointed. It’s going to be different and some will have a hard time accepting that. Best thing to do is to try to keep an open mind and just keep our fingers crossed that it’s a good Indiana Jones movie.

On topic of the bullwhip, The David Morgan bullwhip itself changed in every movie, and in some cases from scene to scene. If you compare a Raider’s bullwhip to a Temple of doom bullwhip to a Last Crusade bullwhip, there are noticeable differences even between the individual whips in each movie. If you’ve seen a recent David Morgan bullwhip, you'll know that they look a bit different too compared to the older models. To the average viewer, they all look the same though and so will this new one, we however will know better.

I don’t think it’s a blown strand you’re seeing Steve. I’ve actually seen small gaps in the plaiting just like that in several other bullwhips made by this particular whip maker, a few of those whips are sitting to the left of me right now. It’s usually where the strand is dropped in to the whip, it opens up a small gap but it really doesn’t effect the performance or the durability of the whip, these are very good whips.

Now for those of you who are still worried that this might be the only bullwhip used in Indy 4 I’ll say this, during the filming of The Mask of Zorro, production used both black David Morgan bullwhips supplied to the studio and a couple bullwhips that where the property of whip coach Alex Green made By Joe Strain and possibly even Terry Jacka. Also In the movie the Rundown, which used Anthony Delongis as whip coach, production used bullwhips made by both Paul Nolan and Terry Jacka. So this type of situation is not unheard of in the film industry today.

Dan

Something else just occured to me.

As secretive as Spielberg and company are about this production, could it be possible that what's being shown on the videos might not be the hero versions of any of the gear?

Think about it. The only time we see items actually ON Harrison things are glared out, or through monitors. Are we even sure the close-up of the whip is on Harrison? Could it be a stand it? Could the row of hats and the jacket be for the stuntmen?

It's probably unlikely that a stand-in would go to the extremes to have the bag and whip on, but it could be a stunt preformer. All we see is a bit of pants, bag and whip.

I'm not saying this is the case, just supposition on my part. But as close as they're playing this to the vest, it makes me wonder.

Mike

Hey!

I have a whip that color. With that same transition, with that same transition knot, with that same gap in plaiting! And even...should I dare say...BY THE SAME MAKER!

Whoa! For the first time...EVER...I'm almost screen accurate. LOL!

Still, that's what you get when you hire DeLongis...

-Dan

Mike wrote:Something else just occured to me.

As secretive as Spielberg and company are about this production, could it be possible that what's being shown on the videos might not be the hero versions of any of the gear?

Think about it. The only time we see items actually ON Harrison things are glared out, or through monitors. Are we even sure the close-up of the whip is on Harrison? Could it be a stand it? Could the row of hats and the jacket be for the stuntmen?

It's probably unlikely that a stand-in would go to the extremes to have the bag and whip on, but it could be a stunt preformer. All we see is a bit of pants, bag and whip.

I'm not saying this is the case, just supposition on my part. But as close as they're playing this to the vest, it makes me wonder.

Mike

I think you may well be on track. Look at the difference in the hat on Harrison in the scene where the two (notably United States) soldiers are holding him back.

Let's face it, we will know nothing until we are supposed to and I am just thrilled that there will be a new Indiana Jones movie. To he** with the idea that it may somehow diminish the originals. Indy is like pizza, some pizza may be better than others, but any pizza is good pizza !

JJ

Mike,
I think you've got a good point, too. In fact, it looks to me to be exactly what they're doing. I'm sure it's probably common knowledge to some, but just how many hats did Harrison wear in any given movie? I was under the impression that even though the hats looked slightly different from scene to scene, he basically had the same hat on throughout. (Not necessarily in Temple, though...) For instance, I thought the original scene outside the temple in Raiders, the hat hadn't been turned yet. Then they turned it and continued filming. Then they removed the sweatband and cinched it for the Cairo scenes. I may be way off base, and if feel free to set me straight.
What I'm getting at is that it doesn't seem to make sense to me for there to be three or four hero hats standing by for any given scene. I woul think that they would find one that worked and stick with it, unless another was needed.

JKL
Ron

Why would they give any stuntman a different costume piece to wear? Constancy is very important on any film and I doubt the stuntman would be wearing any different gear at all unless it was needed for a serious stunt. Even if that were the case, they'd try to match it up as closely as possible to the hero props/costume pieces.

I remember that they did a lousy job on Terry Leonard's hat in Raiders. I can see the brim shape being slightly different on the stuntman's hat, as different head shapes tend to produce different swoops, but the bash was all wrong, too.

I'm sorry if I strayed into a hat discussion on the bullwhip thread again.

Ron

Very true, but he WAS wearing an HJ to keep with continuity. Even if the bash was wrong, the costume piece was exactly the same. This is why I have very high doubts a different whip would be used just for the stuntmen.

Captain Ron Solo wrote: What I'm getting at is that it doesn't seem to make sense to me for there to be three or four hero hats standing by for any given scene. I woul think that they would find one that worked and stick with it, unless another was needed.

JKL
Ron

Actually you are a 1000% wrong. Not only are there going to be, "three or four hero hats standing by"...there are going be many, MANY more than that. Same goes for all costumes, guns, bags, whips etc...Just how a film is made. And all stuntmen and onscreen doubles will have exactly the same things as the hero.

So the "stuntman's whip" explanation goes out the window. It's either a new whip look for Indy, a practice whip (although why one would practice with another whip than the one to be used in the film is beyond me), one of Anthony's hanging around, or a whip for another scene or character.

Wow! Look everyone. Not only was I completely wrong in saying basically that it's stupid to trade hats out every scene for the sake of changing hats, I somehow managed to be ten times more wrong than is actually possible. Of course, in my defense, grade school multiplication was not my major in college. Maybe they've changed it.
If in the business they change out hats every scene just so someone can go back and make more money selling more items that have screen time (or any other reason), so be it. However, I think that this type of practice is detrimental to the continuity of the film, and a disservice to fans like us. It's like the winner of a NASCAR race, trying to do interviews after it's over with some idiot standing beside him changing his hat every ten seconds to please the sponsors. Only a dimwit would think, "Hey, he was wearing a Pepsi cap for a couple of seconds there. He must prefer Pepsi to Coke!" I personally take offense to such superficial marketing ploys.
I know that I'm not the only one who gets hung up on details, especially where Indy films are concerned. I guess I just like the thought of Harrison having a prefered "go to" hat when he's filming. Next, you're ging to tell me Santa isn't real.


Ron

Oh no...Santa's real.

But seriously - didn't mean to overstate - but on films they aren't concerened about selling props or anything like that. No thought given to that. They aren't switching out hats etc for the heck of of it or to have more screen worn stuff. It's all about how a film is shot.

It's just the the there are going to be tons of matching hats, jackets and everything else. And in an action film like Indy - they will be many of each - each made up to look more or less distressed - blood on it - etc. All to match the different timelines in the film. Films aren't shot in order as I'm sure you know - so you have to have wardrobe and gear to match.

Hope I'm not destroying any delusions out there - Harry doesn't have a "go to hat" - it's up to Mary Zophres and Leoisick Castro to tell him what to wear - and and they have lots of each item. But that's why "screen worn" costumes are so hard to authenticate - and most times they are BS or backup backups...Unless you were there on set - it's hard to know.

When has continuity ever been a part of an Indiana Jones movie continuity errors are almost part of their charm.

There is no question that production goes through a great deal of costume changes on a film set. You can visit the hat or jacket sections of Indygear if you want to find out how many of each they went through for Harrison Ford, his stunt doubles and stand ins in each movie. I belive you will find that there where many for each. Considering over 30 bullwhips where supplied just for the first 3 films that might give you just some idea the number of a particular item ordered.

It is not uncommon for there to be both stunt and hero versions of a prop item or costume. So there are reason why a stuntman’s bullwhip would be slightly different then a hero version, or why one bullwhip may be changed out from another from one scene to the next. For example one version of this bullwhip may be required to perform in a way the other version can’t. Remember different whips handle differently, so a stunt performer or in this case the whip trainer may be bringing in their own required equipment to the set to better perform a specific task needed to get the shot, and that will be replaced by another version at a later point, Its part of that movie making magic that the audience aren’t supposed to notice.

Now, Lets keep things civil and on topic.

Dan

All of this just gives me the urge to buy a whip made by the guy who made the whip pictured at the top of this post. I'm really trying to fight the urge as I already have 3 whips on order with Chris Barr and I'm saving up for a trip to Australia in November.

-Adam