Was the Raiders hat a hat rotated 90 degrees?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 6:10 pm

Turning a hat 90 degrees seems to impart a lot of Raiders style into it. I have made a web page exploring this theory. http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... e.html[url][/url] ---------------------------------I'm adding this to this post 2 months later- here is my latest adventure in hat turning-http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... sTurn.html

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:19 pm

I find that when I get an unblocked fedora and turn it about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch to the right (from center on my noggin), I get just the effect you are describing in your layout. It's nice to see I'm not the only one...............

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:50 pm

You make great duct tape hats, I still remember them.

To clarify, the dimensional cut has been around for close to 100 years. Akubra was doing them early on, along with the British. It seems to have been popular over there. Also, on a nondimensional brim, the brim is the same width all the way around, courtesy of the hat jack(brim cutter) that follows the crown. So, if you turned one of these babies sideways, you wouldn't have a dimensional cut brim.

I think the Raiders look is nothing more than the particular block used, and the nature of the felt in that hat. I agree with Oklahoma in that if you give the hat a little twist, you can mimic certain scenes. In the end, the shape of the block is everything, IMHO. Pyroxene used his wooden block to do what you are doing, and was amazed at the results, but if he had the right block to start with, he probably would not have to go the 90 degreee route. Still, interesting stuff, and it shows you are intent on recreating what looks right to you. Good luck, and when you get a fedora and start the experiments, keep us posted. regards, Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 4:45 am

I think you made a fantastic research here!!!

Thanks a lot for sharing.

Like Fedora stated already, Pyroxene had some results close to what you found out, and I really think that even the block they use at Optimo doesn't come up to results like that (just my opinion, I don't want to offend anybody or to start some new fight in here

).

Now what I REALLY would love, is to see a Fed or Fed deluxe that have been modified that way. The problem is, that the Fed deluxe already has a dimensional cut, so after turning it 90° the brim would be to short in the front and back. But for those who are going to buy a new custom made hat, this could REALLY be a good idea.

Keep up the good work,
regards,
Marc

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:29 pm

The way is was worn on the head can also account for the look. Turning the fedora to the left or right a 1/2 an inch or so can add to that, contourting the brim a little. Also how it was bashed can go into it, if the center dent and front pinch were actually not perfect center then the fedora worn to the off center can be a factor.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:19 pm

I agree with ya Josh. I find it hard to believe that the costumer(for lack of a better term), took off the ribbon, turned the hat 90 degrees, and then put it on Ford's head. What would be the point? Like I said, it is the type of block, and the nature of the particular felt used in that hat. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't take an inferior blocked hat, and do that to it to arrive at a better look. You probably can, as evidenced by 3 thousand bucks. regards, fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:46 am

Fedora, a practical reason why a costumer may have turned the fedora sideways is that it would fit tighter- the head has to overcome the sideways oval, and so the hat would grip the front and back of the head tightly. In the heyday of hats, someone must have turned one sideways and liked it's look better that way, and maybe the costumer was an old-timer who knew the trick. (I asked my 88 year old Dad if he he had ever heard of this trick, but he hadn't.) A costumer is probably an accomplished seamstress, who could reorient the ribbon in 15 minutes time- no big deal. Personaly, I like to think someone made a mistake sewing the ribbon on, and no one knows the secret to this day. BTW, I read Pyroxene's available posts and did a word search, but I can't find anything. Can you explain to me exactly what he did? Thanks. (P.S. I owe you a duct tape hat.)

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:56 am

I guess anything is possible.

Pyro was having trouble with one of his hats tapering and used his block turned 90 degrees to help solve the problem. I think it worked, although it may have been only a temporary fix as he was having trouble with this hat wanting to return to the cone shape. I think that I have this all correct. Perhaps he will chime in soon. I still say you ought to start styling felt fedoras for a living if the duct tape ones are any indication of your skill. You have the talent. regards, Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:47 am

---What did Indy's Raiders hat look like when it wasn't on Indy's head? The shot of it on the Imam's table is telling, but they say the front dent is too small. In the dock scene, the hat is resting so lightly on his head, that it may or may not be considerd as being "unworn". What is going on here? Is the oval trying to shift back 90 degrees to it's original shape? ----Last night I determined there is a nylon filament in the folded edge of that black hat. (They put them in these cheep wool hats to get a snap brim.) I believe it prevents my hat from achieving that high point on the right side where the Raiders brim starts to angle down in front. I admit this whole theory is just that, and welcome criticism.

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:27 am

The Raiders hat might have been bashed off-center to begin with. Evidence? The ribbon is a bit too close to the front of the hat.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:37 am

Somebody has way too much time on their hands

Wouldn't a properly fitting fedora tend to stretch the hat in the right direction? I know that the more oval a persons head is, the more pronounced the swoop. Many people have achieved the look without resorting to these measures.

Maybe as a last resort, this can be the answer for someone, but typically, a hat should fit properly without having to rebuild it, otherwise the hat makers would simply have the oval opening go side to side to begin with.

My hat has an oval opening, but it was initially round when I received it, to the point where the hat looked like a derby and I often had to check it in the mirror to see if it was on straight. Over time, it developed a more oval opening because I just happen to have an oval head.

I was hoping my head would conform to the shape of the hat and have a Raider's block - look to it. Then the hat would always be in the right shape

There was simply a day where I actually felt the sweatband conform as if by magic and the hat has fit very comfortably ever since.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:36 am

This very interesting research.

I know where you are going with this theory. Let me toss some of my findings in to the mix and we can see if they make sense.

During the Texas Summit, I had the opportunity to talk to Joe Jr. about hats. The one question that has always plagued me was the Raider's swoosh in the Cairo Bar scene.

(I highlighted it in yellow so you know what I am refering too.)

Joe's idea was that they put a round hat on Indy's head. That when the hat is forced into the oval shape of HF's head, the swoosh occurs. He then took his hat off and put his thumb in the front and the other hand in the back and streched the hat out length-wise. Not only did it make the swoosh, it also creates the reverse taper you illustrated.

1.) I suspect that the hat was of a very soft felt. (You can see when the monkey crawls behind Indy's head under the brim of the hat, the brim rises up as he passes.)

2.) I suspect that the hat was blocked on something round. Maybe a block or some kind of container.

3.) When HF put's the hat on, the reverse taper appears and swoosh becomes more prounced.

3kbucks, what kind of block/stand are you using? It looks like a fedora block. Really interesting.

Pyro.

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:23 pm

The Other Jones hit the nail on the head, in respect to bashing......Let's just say, hypothetically, that the ribbon was NOT removed, and for the sake of this argument, let's also say that the ribbon is placed in approximately the same place as the hats we all own......pictures from ROTLA clearly show that the front of the bow seem to be almost over HF's left eye........isn't it possible that the hat was bashed off-center during the fitting and brim cutting? And isn't it also possible that further twisting of the hat could produce the 'brim effect ' that we are all talking about? For the longest time, as a much younger man, I was buying open crowned cowboy hats for conversion, and cutting the brim a little short on the left side, to mimic what I was seeing in the film. It just seems to me that, especially in light of some of the posts I have read regarding haphazard brim cuts from HJ, that it is a possibility that it happened all those years ago as well...............(things that make ya go HHHMMMMMMMMMMM.............). Just my 2 cents, O_J

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:03 pm

Harrison has a long head. It's very obvious as he turns it. Rick 5150 bought a round holed hat and I have seen lots of them. Harrison putting a round holed hat on would stretch it out and get a great swoosh and reverse taper. That may be all that's going on, but it makes me wonder about all the asymetry going on in every part of the hat. Also , stretching a hat front to back with your hands, there's no head in there to limit the reverse taper- how much would you really be getting? If an oval holed hat has no taper, it follows that the top of the crown will be oval. A sideways oval on top will give you reverse taper too, along with more reverse taper you'd get with a sideways hat than with a round hat- That's alot of reverse taper. If you have a round head, as many do, wearing a sideways hat could be your last resort, like Rick said. A limited turn of the hat? As pointed out, the dimensional cut would have to be a very custom job. Oklahoma, I think the bow is centered on the Raiders hat- look at the picture on my page that's just the back of the hat , Indy's ear and shoulders- it's only an inch from the end of the bow to the back of the hat.I just think the Raiders hat is too radical not to have nearly 90 degrees on it. I don't know. Pyroxene- That block was a sculpture of the Raiders crown I made, looking at about 40 photographs, and the picture of my hat you posted- it looks too reverse taper, but sort of like the hand stretch, theres no head up in there to keep the sides from curving way in.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:34 am

Check my site again. I have set the hat up 180 degrees the other way. (Still 90 degrees off center.) I've also tried 45 degrees.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 9:07 am

I like youir thinking and supporting shots. Good work.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:44 am

I am somewhat confused on this "reverse taper" issue. If you put your hands inside the hat and pull fore and aft, the swoop of the brim jumps into being. But....the reverse taper is gone. If you put a long oval head into a round hat...no reverse taper. It is obvious why. The long oval head distorts the round hole, and as the hat moves to the crown, the transition from the distorted roundness to the original undistorted roundness takes place. I am looking at a hat in this state as I write. It seems to me the simplest explanation is that the block used for the Raiders version was not of this world...oops, sorry.

No, what I mean is the block used was simply different from those that came after. If you look at an assortment of hat blocks, you will see at least 3 variations on the shape of the very top of the crown, that is, the way it transitions from the straight sides, and also the shape of the top of the arch. Herein lies the key to the look that we are after. Having a long oval head will help, but the block has to be there too. Just my two cents.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:16 am

First, I have included a new finding on my page concerning an irregulatrity on the top of the Raiders hat that doesn't show up on mine untill it's turned 90 degrees. It's really a bizare discovery! ----Pyroxene was refering to reverse taper occuring in the sides. I think taper in the back is normaly a function of the top bash. The longer the bash, the more back taper you should get. My hat is so tight front to back from being sideways, that it makes the back of the hat conform to the curve of the back of the scull verticaly (in a "C"), then reverse direction out toward the end of the bash resulting in exagerated reverse taper. I just realized what that irregularity on the top of the hat IS! (I'm playing with a hat as I type too) -It's the transition point of the side to crown. The location of that irregularity on the Raiders hat might tell you something about it's block. http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead.com/PCLite.html

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:52 pm

OKAY..I gotta chime in on this one!!!!! When I got my Allessandria Fedoras from PeterBro. they sat very "normal" on my head. Since they were soft felt, I turned them sideways and WHAMMO the exact Raiders-crooked-brim-Cairo-truck-explosion-reverse-taper-on-the-sides look I was after. So I removed the ribbons and replaced them on sideways and this is so perfect for the look I wanted. Now, I don`t believe that the hats Harrison Ford wore were all done this way..it would have been impractical..but I think his head shape had EVERYTHING to do with that particulr Raiders look considering the quality of felt that was used as opposed to the later line of Poets offered by HJ..especially considering that their supplier changed after that film. And out of all the contacts that you guys have developed with the actual suppliers of the film gear, Herbert Johnson has been the most difficult and therefore much of what they claim would be better taken with a grain of salt. Photos of my sideways fedora are here....check em out, tell me what you think of this cool and practical theory!..This is a great solution for us "oddly shaped heads" who really want the special Raiders look. The Charcoal Grey fedora sitting on the table looks just like the same shape when Indy is wearing the hat lightly on his head at the ship docks.
[url]http://photos.yahoo.com/chahenabro[/url]
http://photos.yahoo.com/chahenabro

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:38 am

To quote Indy, resting his chin on the surveyor's scope- ".....That's It..........." --- End of story. Case closed. ----- All those pictures look super......................................................................Thanks partner.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:21 am

Not so fast!!!!!

You guys still have not convinced me at all.

Is it impossible to perceive that maybe, just maybe, the Raiders hat came blocked from the Brazillian company just like you see on the screen. I mean, that is makes more sense than someone putting the hat on Fords head sideways and then deciding to have him wear it that way. For what it is worth, that hat look too large for Gorak's head, like a kid wearing his fathers hat. No offense. And if they did on for the first film, why didn't they just keep it up for the next two films? Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:34 pm

You should be excited about the new hat I predict you'll be buying soon!-(just to hold you over till the Brazillian block shows up somewhere.) There's one picture of Gorack with a whip where his shadow on the wall looks like part of his hat and makes it look too big- All the other ones look good to me. Indy 4 may see the hat problem finally fixed, if you know what I'm saying.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:51 pm

I am really happy that you did this research, $3000. I plan to take photos like these and some ideas of my own to Joe Jr. sometime next summer. I think a PBMB would be a really sweet lid.

Cheers,
Pyro.

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:43 pm

There's one picture of Gorack with a whip where his shadow on the wall looks like part of his hat and makes it look too big- All the other ones look good to me.

Fedora's not alone on this, I agree, that hat does look a little too large. Even in the other pictures without the shadow it looks too big.

The method of turning the hat 90 degrees does appear to give it that Raiders look, but I don't think it's the true answer. I just doubt that they would intentionally turn the hat just to make it look like that. If the non tapered look and brim shape was so important, then why wasn't it repeated.

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 11:12 pm

Now, Pyro, you KNOW the sweetness of the PBMB, for you have been to the sacred store.........and Marcus, perhaps the 'twisting' of the hat was a fluke.....even most pre-blocked hats are not 100% exactly shaped right down the absolute middle............so much variety.................whatever was done to that particular hat, it sure gives it a great character, and gives us all something to ponder............Best to you, O_J

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 11:54 pm

Yeah, but to several different hats and to 90 degrees? A bit off center maybe, but I doubt a total 90 degree twist. Even my own hat is not centered perfectly (and it definitely does give it character

) but only because of natural human error. If the costumer switched the ribbon around 90 degrees would they also need to change the sweatband? If the hat was turned 90 degrees with a swtiched ribbon and the sweatband was not, the sweatband and the small ribbon should not be at the back of the hat anymore. Anyways, I'm no authority on this sort of stuff, just a guy making his opinion.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:14 am

Well, just to varify...I don`t think this 90 degree turn was actaully used in the film hats...I just think that it helps us with heads that are not "long oval" shapes get the right look. Funny thing is that my hats, while they may look big, are actually smaller in dimensions and fit me snug. The crown is 4 3/4 in front, an even 5 at the sides and 4 in the back. The brim is 2 3/4`s all the way around. Joe Peter had told me when he made them for me that some of you guys had looked into this hat before but felt that the dimensions were too small.
Secondly, it all goes back to the Michaelson University logic of " Your wearing the darn thing so if your happy with it, then that`s all that matters." I personally feel that Indy`s Raiders Fedora WAS big looking. Even folks I tell about the hat always comment about how they like the hats in the later films as they look more like fedoras from the thirties and that the Raiders hat always looks huge and kinda cowboyish. Thats the look I want and I feel I got it. I am happy with it and that`s all that matters.
But this is actually a good solution for those who have round heads and can`t get that distinct Raiders of the Lost Ark look. A friend of mine who was majorly commenting on how my hat looked big on me was watching Raiders with me the other day and suddenly exclaimed during the Cairo Basket chase.." Now that hat looks JUST like yours!! The shape and everything. Looks big on Harrison Ford too but ,yeah, it looks just like the one your wearing!"
....of course I had my hat on while I was watching..Don`t we all!

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:17 am

....of course I had my hat on while I was watching..Don`t we all!

Hehe. Ditto. In fact, I'm wearing it right now.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:50 am

Hey Gorak, that hat looks great, and you did a fantastic job in styling. The only thing thing that I meant about it being too large was in reference to the width of the front and back. But, it still looks great. In fact, it is one of the better looking fedoras that I have seen. Yours and Dr. Brody's. What model did you say that hat was? I know you posted about it awhile back. thanks, Fedora

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:41 am

Marcus Brody wrote: If the non tapered look and brim shape was so important, then why wasn't it repeated.

Different costume designers....Maybe?

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:01 am

Gorak wrote: I personally feel that Indy`s Raiders Fedora WAS big looking.

I totally agree with you. Thinking back to when I ordered my PB custom, Joe Jr. asked me something like if I wanted regular height or skyscraper height. I now want to go back and see exactly what he meant by that.

Gorak wrote:Even folks I tell about the hat always comment about how they like the hats in the later films as they look more like fedoras from the thirties and that the Raiders hat always looks huge and kinda cowboyish.

For American hats, they are probably correct. Most all American hats I have see have the teardrop shape to the hat. When I see a small hat, I think of a Frank Sinatra photo wearing a tiny fedora.

However, when Dakota Ellison posted the pic of the Spirit of St. Louis landing in England, almost every hat has a center dent.

Which tells me that the trend in Europe was to have the crown height a little taller and probably less taper. Upon closer inspection, it looks like some of the hat are missing the two front bashes.

In any case, I love a good tall fedora. Maybe it's a Texas thing. There are times when I watch ToD and LC and think those hats are too small.

Cheers,
Pyro.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:37 pm

[quote="Fedora"]Hey Gorak, that hat looks great, and you did a fantastic job in styling. The only thing thing that I meant about it being too large was in reference to the width of the front and back. But, it still looks great. In fact, it is one of the better looking fedoras that I have seen. Yours and Dr. Brody's. What model did you say that hat was? I know you posted about it awhile back. thanks, Fedora[/quote]

Hey Fedora- I understand about the size...no offense taken...and I highly value your opinion on Fedoras as the ones you have shown us are awesome looking. I think that the problem with me is that I also don`t have a jawline and face shape like Mr. Ford so it still won`t get the EXACT same look. From the side profile, with his strong chin, it really gives the hat an even more "swoop" look to it. So while I may never look like Harrison Ford I definitely wanted a hat that looked like that films hat. In the end, I wanted a hat that looked like Raiders of the Lost Ark..not neccessarily an "Indy" hat..but a hat looking specifically from that first movie that I fell in love with. And even if it doesn`t turn me into Harrison Ford, at least I can get that hero-in-the-big-soft-felt-hat look that I think says it all.
You`ve got a great looking face with strong features..don`t let my wife hear me say that!!

I have a small chin and chubby cheeks so..The fedora in your profile pic looks great on you! I do with what I got and I`m loving life..even more with the hat of my dreams!!!
ps. My fedoras are Borsalino Allesandrias. I bought three of them from PeterBros (Charcoal Greyw/ black ribbon with double bow, Mink Brown with black ribbon with double bow, and Kangoroo with darkest brown ribbon with double bow. I don`t think I put any pictures up of it but I actually love the Kangoroo one the most....for some reason it has lots of charactor to it cept that its a dark kakhi color..but goes great with the MBA Raiders pants. All hats are VERY soft, very very lightweight felt with a VERY soft leather hatband.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:33 pm

Pyroxene wrote: Joe's idea was that they put a round hat on Indy's head. That when the hat is forced into the oval shape of HF's head, the swoosh occurs. He then took his hat off and put his thumb in the front and the other hand in the back and streched the hat out length-wise. Not only did it make the swoosh, it also creates the reverse taper you illustrated.

1.) I suspect that the hat was of a very soft felt. (You can see when the monkey crawls behind Indy's head under the brim of the hat, the brim rises up as he passes.)

2.) I suspect that the hat was blocked on something round. Maybe a block or some kind of container.

3.) When HF put's the hat on, the reverse taper appears and swoosh becomes more prounced.
Pyro.

I did this pic to illustrate the idea Joe showed me at the Texas summit. Streching the hat length-wise makes:
1.) Dramatic brim swoosh on the side,
2.) Reverse taper (Making it look like the band is tight at the bottom.)
3.) The crown looks taller.

Now, what I need is a hat that does that when I put it on.

Hmmm.....

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:40 pm

Woudn't that also make the front and back taper increase though. To get the swoop and the reverse taper would definitely require a hat that looks really strange when not on someone's head.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:56 pm

Marcus Brody wrote:Woudn't that also make the front and back taper increase though.

Are you talking from the side? When you strech the hat at the sweat band, yes. When I put my whole hand in the hat and strech it, it's fairly straight.

Marcus Brody wrote:To get the swoop and the reverse taper would definitely require a hat that looks really strange when not on someone's head.

I was thinking the same thing. I am trying to formulate how it would have to look to appear the way I want it on my head.

TheOther Jones · Post by **TheOther Jones** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:41 am

I've been thinking exactly the same thing, Pyro, and I think I found a solution. Not THE solution though, cause it needs to be tested first

Imagine that the inside of the hat is perfectly round. Not oval, not long oval, but round. Or very close to roundness in its ovality (is that a word?). And the hat itself has to be made of soft felt, otherwise it won't work. What happens when you put it on? It will stretch front to back, deforming the brim slightly (the deformation shown in Pyro's pics above is a bit too much than what we want) and giving the crown that reverse taper. Here's what it would look like unbashed on somebody's head (it's actually the Tall Captain from Raiders):

Look at the brim and how it is deformed. I bet it would be flat if he took the thing off. Also, note the taper that forms in the side profile due to stretching. In the top pic the fedora bulges out at the forehead - look closely. Also, there's a slight reverse taper visible in the second and last pic - on Captain's right hand side.
You have to remember that this hat is unbashed, or the bashes "popped out" of it. If you introduced a center dent, the sideways taper would be greatly diminished if not eliminated entirely.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:22 am

Now that theory does make sense.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 5:01 am

That hat looks too tight, forming that ugly concave portion just above the ribbon in the front crease when the hat is viewed from the left side. His too large head may have popped out all the bashes without much help... I think that might be Indy's grey hat used on the spur of the moment. It looks too tight and messy with those popped out bashes to have been thoughtfully supplied to the actor by wardrobe. If that is Indy's grey, and it's an exact twin of his brown hat, then these pictures could give you the exact height of Indy's unbashed crown (extrapolating from the ribbon width), and show you the contour of the top of the block used for both hats! -----When Indy gets on the Pam Am clipper, his hat has no curl in the sides of the brim, and the back doesn't curl up at all- it actually looks like it curls down a little, and there is taper at the back of the crown. --In the final steps scene, there is lots of curl in the sides of the brim, the brim's differences viewed from left and right look the same to me as his brown hat, and it looks to me like there is reverse taper at the back of the crown (my freeze frame is too jittery for me to be sure, darn it)---And here's something interesting- Indy puts the hat on coming down the steps with very little effort, holding it by the pinch, and Marion slides the hat up his forehead with just a little index finger pressure, so I don't think extra tightness is influencing the shape of the hat. Was the grey hat turned 90 degrees between the clipper scene and the steps scene?

RedburnIV · Post by **RedburnIV** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:01 pm

I have an incredibly hard time believing that they turned his hat 90 or 180 degress, why would they go threw that much work??

Regards, Dan

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:44 pm

I just put some - what is it called? - tape? - between the sweatband and the crown of my PBII to make it more narrow in the lenght.

You can try this yourself on your hats without a reblock or anything like this. Just put some tape between the sweatband and the crown, put it on and see the difference.

Pyroxene is right! This DOES cause a reverse taper when I put it on!

So, whether the hat was turned 90 degrees or not, it has to be a little to narrow in the lenght to receive that reverse taper on the sides. To turn it 90 degrees is obviously one way to do so (but it hasn't to be the only way).

And now that I come to think about it: when i received my PBII it was a little wide in the sides and a little narrow in back and front. I started to wonder, why people kept on posting that their PBII had a slight taper, while mine is absolutely straight. Now, I guess, I know the answer.

It all makes sense: when Pyroxene posted that he had turned his block 90 degrees and finally received perfect result (well, at least to me they looked fantastic) it came from the lenght of the hat, that had gotten a little to narrow. The same phenomenon happens, when you turn it 90 degrees.

I really think that's it. Thank you Pyroxene and $3,000 for the inspiration.

Regards,
Marc

Marcus Brody · Post by **Marcus Brody** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 11:37 pm

TheOther Jones wrote:

Look at the brim and how it is deformed. I bet it would be flat if he took the thing off.

I left the brim uncurled and it automatically curled once I put my hat on.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:15 am

If the same grey hat was used in the clipper and steps scenes, then THE HAT WAS ROTATED 90 DEGREES between scenes! If the hat has a round brim, with an oval hole in it, then the front of the brim should be shorter than the sides of the brim. If this hat is turned sideways, the front of the brim will be wider than the sides- in effect, the Raiders dimensional cut brim. . It's hard to tell, but the front of the brim in the clipper scene is shorter than the sides. The front seems to LOOM in close ups, but --Remember- the front of the oval is a very tight curve. The brim will widen dramaticaly left or right of the exact front... I need to make 3 posts to show 3 pictures. The first picture also shows the taper of the back of the crown. The last one is the steps scene, and you can see that the front of the brim is wider, and there is REVERSE taper in the back of the crown.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:25 am

Wide - side.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:28 am

On the steps, Baby...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:03 pm

"If the hat has a round brim with an oval hole in it". Well, I can't get past this first point in your illustration. Generally speaking, hats are not made in this way. Why would a hatter go against all common practice and even cut a brim this way initially? So that is a whopper "if".

Most hats come with a non dimensional brim. It is not round, because it mimics the shape of the crown base, but if you measure from the sweatband to the edge of the brim, it will be the same whether you measure the front or sides. In the manufacturing process, the felt is made in a cone, it is blocked with the brim still uneven, and larger than what the finished hat will be. Then to trim the brim to the desired width, a hat jack is use. It is a simple tool that rides against the crown where the ribbon is attached and it cuts off the excess as it follows the crown base around. In essence, there is not first a perfect circle(brim) to which an oval hole is inserted.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:05 pm

I own 5 different store bought, stone stock hats. I just measured them, and all of them have wider brims at the sides than in the front and back.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 2:04 am

This is starting to make me hear the theme from the Twilight Zone.

You own 5 hats that are wider on the sides, stone stock as you say. I have owned scores of hats, and the only ones that were ever wider on the sides were miscuts. Errors. Not to say that some would vary 1/16 an inch. But the variance was never just on the sides. Reminds me of the time I stopped at a gas station to ask directions. The old guy looked at me and said, "Sonny, you can't get there from here". I was puzzled then, as now.

Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:16 am

For example, the black hat I used on my web page. In the first picture of it, (the hat upside down), you can easily see that the sides are wider than the front and back- (by 5mm.)- However, I was wrong when I said the brim was round. I just measured, and the overall brim is 10mm longer than it is wide. The oval opening is 20mm longer than it is wide, giving the extra 5mm to the brim width on the sides.----The picture below is from a very old encyclopedia. There are 7 steps in hat making pictured and this is the 5th, a guy working oil into the felt. (I will post the whole page of pictures in a new thread later) The sides of the brim are a lot wider than the front. I don't know if this is the final shape of the brim, but if he works oil into it, then cuts some off, that would be a waste of oil and labor.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:56 am

Marc wrote:I just put some - what is it called? - tape? - between the sweatband and the crown of my PBII to make it more narrow in the lenght.

I thought about doing this. I am happy to hear you had good results.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 12:53 pm

To take a look at the hat jack, or brim cutting procedure, go to: http://www.shopniagara.net/custom_hatter/hatter2.html

Was the Raiders hat a hat rotated 90 degrees?

Was the Raiders hat a hat rotated 90 degrees?

Rotation

New 90 degree "evidence"?