Club Obi Wan

Okay, so I just happen to glance at some of the paper-to-recycle chucked in the box along with my U.S. Wings jacket and I notice a "startling" discovery. According to the December 20, 2006 issue of Mimi Vanderhaven's Fabulous Buys that probably gets stuffed in every box (whatever "publication" that is) U.S. Wings made the original Raiders jacket. In a caption under a picture of the store's Indy display:

U.S. Wings supplied the famous leather jacket worn by Harrison Ford in the hit movie Raiders of the Lost Ark. Sgt. Hack has also supplied jackets for Hollywood's Space Cowboys, Behind Enemy Lines and Pearl Harbor. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I don't know about the other movies, but I'm skeptical about the "tip" of that iceberg. And from later in the article:

Sarge even offers the Signature Series Indy Jones Jacket. That's because David supplied Harrison Ford with the jacket he wore in the hit movie Raiders of the Lost Ark.

"Again," smiles Sarge, "This isn't similar to the jacket Harrison Ford wore. It's the very same jacket."

Anyone else find issue with this? Apparently the sizing with U.S. Wings isn't the only thing in question in my book.

"Funny how the back panel of Mr. Ford's jacket spanned the distance of the yoke, while the Sergeant's "very same" product falls about 1.5 inches short on both sides", smiles St. Dumas.

SD

I thought it was Eastman who did the Pearl Harbor jackets.

I thought it was Eastman who did the Pearl Harbor jackets.

It was Eastman. It was a very large contract too.

Bink, if you can retreive that article, could you scan it, and post it for
us to see?

I find this quite sad actually. Why? Because the "average" person has
no clue who actually made the jackets. So, any low life can make a
claim like that, and just wait for people to try to prove it wrong.

In the meantime, the information, although false, is out there, and some
people will believe it because they don't know the truth, nor do they have
the means to find out the real facts.

I hope you can post this information. We need to send it to Peter at
Wested so he can send a letter to Hack, and end these false claims.

Flathead

Oh, I kept it, alright. I quoted it word for word, too. I'll try to get some scans in tonight.

I just find it a bit much for Sarge to claim he made "the very same jacket" Ford wore. How much are companies allowed to make such claims without "getting into trouble?" I know the Wested connection to the Indy films, but this is the first I've ever heard that U.S. Wings had anything to do with the actual film jackets. To me, it's outright false advertising.

Ah... See, I never got much into ToD and ToD gear, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the jackets from that film. I guess it makes sense since there were so many different hats in ToD, too. I just wish people making claims would get their facts straight. So Sarge can technically say they provided jackets for ToD, but not for ROTLA and LC.

Probably as much as Peter can claim he provided jackets for TofD, even though HE didn't. They were left over from the Raiders production.

Regards! Michaelson

Fact is - the claim is accurate.

Well, thats like saying that the Ford Motor Company designed and built all the 1969
Jaguars just because Ford now owns Jaguar.

US Wings was estabished in 1986, two years AFTER TOD came out.

To make the claim that HIS company supplied jackets to a movie,
two years before he even had a company, is wrong on an honestly
level don't you think?

And, just to be clear, Hack is saying he supplied the jackets for Raiders
Of the Lost Ark, not TOD.

So, that makes it even worse.

Flathead

I think Vasaline was required to remove body parts from orifices after the dust settled, and nobody even bought him a drink...

I am not doubting you, I am just saying that just because you can
leagally say something, does not make it honest.

Flathead

But I believe that technically Cooper is now copyrighted as a brand of US Wings

This is the part that has me baffled.

Was it not on this very site, that Sarge/Michaelson said that Wings broke
off all dealings with Cooper because of what was deemed low quality
control and low quality jackets? And that Wings was now making their
jackets "on site" to keep control over quality?

If thats the case, why would Wings claim to own a company name that
they themselves said they no longer had ties too?

I have always wondered that.

Flathead

That's correct.

Re-read what _ said above. Wings OWNED Cooper. They were the money men that kept Cooper in operation. When Cooper started leaving QC by the wayside, Wings broke ties and began making jackets themselves in their OWN factory under the Wings name.

Cooper eventually closed their doors due to the drop of sales and the elimination of the funding they had received from Wings, and Wings became not only the power behind the throne, but the power IN the throne as well. The Cooper name continues, but now as a name brand in the Wings stable of jackets rather than a separate entity using Wings money for separate operation.

Regards! Michaelson

I figure Cooper still has a certain amount of name recognition, so keeping the name probably adds to their business somewhat.

True.

Regards! Michaelson

Isn't it funny how all these jacket companies have various ties to the film jackets, yet we STILL bug them regarding screen accuracy?

What I find truly ironic regarding this subject is that Wings CHANGED it's patterns due to pressure of the Indygear community to have their jackets more closely match the Wested jacket.....when the Wings jacket was an actual production jacket in the first place! A real poke in the eye, but they made the changes just the same as it's what folks saw at the time as being 'screen accurate'.

Wings finally said 'heck with it' (actually the words were a bit more strongly used, so you can use your imagination what was REALLY said ), and thats pretty much where things lay. They sell so many OTHER style jackets through other venues, the Indy jacket is just another jacket to them rather than their 'bread and butter', so why invest any more monies in the patterns or revisions? My question...not theirs.

Regards! Michaelson

Wings broke ties and began making jackets themselves in their OWN factory under the Wings name.

According to Wings website, they make their Signature Series jackets
in their "New Jersey" factory.

This location is the same location as Neil Coopers.

I thought that Wings was making the jackets in Ohio. If they are making
them in New Jersey, in the same place as they got their old Coopers, then aren't
they still the same thing?

I must have something wrong somewhere.

Flathead

The factory in Stow Ohio was completely flooded a few years back. The only thing left there now is the sales and service office, and I believe one warehouse. Cooper threw in the towel not long after the flood, and Wings moved the entire production line to the then idle Cooper factory and started operations there.

That's why there were so many delays on the sales jackets. They were flooded with orders in Stow, and had to pull inventory out of the warehouses in New Jersey to fill the orders as it wiped out the inventory in Stow. I was told in one weekend they had over 1000 orders waiting to be serviced by 6 operators.

Regards! Michaelson

Re-read what _ said above. Wings OWNED Cooper.

Actually, if you re-read it, he states that Cooper is OWNED by Wings,
which implies current ownership, not past ownership the way you have
it stated.

I love semantics...

I am just pulling your chain..

Flathead

If Cooper made the jackets used by the stuntmen in Raiders and were re-used in TOD, then the Sarge's claim is accurate. What's not accurate is the current state of the jackets because when you order you will not be getting what is seen on screen by either the actors or stuntmen. If they'd only make the necessary changes to the jacket to get it to what it was, I'd buy one myself.

I know, FH. You're EVIL!!!

Yep, they 'own' Cooper, but keep in mind, when all that 'ownership' began, Neil Cooper was the real, live, breathing entity that David Hack dealt with day in and day out. When Neil pulled out, the name remained, so that's indeed what Wings still owns.

Lots of twists and turns in that story, let me tell you!

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 wrote:If Cooper made the jackets used by the stuntmen in Raiders and were re-used in TOD, then the Sarge's claim is accurate. What's not accurate is the current state of the jackets because when you order you will not be getting what is seen on screen by either the actors or stuntmen. If they'd only make the necessary changes to the jacket to get it to what it was, I'd buy one myself.

Someone that knows Sgt. Hack should ask him to make a Limited Edition jacket run for COW members... I KNOW I would buy one...

Don't look at me! Anytime I mention 'Wings' around this joint, it makes folks antsy!

Regards! Michaelson

Hmmmm... what's this? Gasoline? I wonder what would happen if I poured a little bit over this little fire... Oops. My bad. 8-[

Here, let ME help!

Regards! Michaelson

He used to be, but has never been active and I believe was deleted in one of the site clean ups.

He still peeks in every now and again. I do believe there are a couple of members of his staff who ARE members here, and should anything occur that they think he'd be interested, it's passed along to him.

No, I do not know who they are.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:What I find truly ironic regarding this subject is that Wings CHANGED it's patterns due to pressure of the Indygear community to have their jackets more closely match the Wested jacket.....when the Wings jacket was an actual production jacket in the first place! A real poke in the eye, but they made the changes just the same as it's what folks saw at the time as being 'screen accurate'.

Wings finally said 'heck with it' (actually the words were a bit more strongly used, so you can use your imagination what was REALLY said ), and thats pretty much where things lay. They sell so many OTHER style jackets through other venues, the Indy jacket is just another jacket to them rather than their 'bread and butter', so why invest any more monies in the patterns or revisions? My question...not theirs.

Regards! Michaelson

“The masses are #####”. Unfortunately I don’t know what rhymes with “Indyfan”. I had a guy at a military collectables show once tell me that he’d gotten stuff directly from veterans, only to have self-proclaimed “experts” tell him upon inspection that the stuff was “inaccurate”. Wings could revise the jacket 20 times and it would still not be right to some people.

On the same level you have a jacket based on a screen used jacket (the Expedition) and you have people saying “it aint right”. “I want a hero jacket, 'cause I fancy myself a hero in real life”. From a jacket maker’s point of view, you can’t win with an Indyfan. I myself have no problem telling most of you guys that you’re crazy. Some of you are “all right”, I guess. Cheers

Well, I know I'm alright! I've made excellent progress since first joining this forum. It's been months since I've needed to wear a lobster bib while logged in here. Everyday, in every way, I'm getting better, and better... 8-[

Rundquist wrote:On the same level you have a jacket based on a screen used jacket (the Expedition) and you have people saying “it aint right”. “I want a hero jacket, 'cause I fancy myself a hero in real life”. From a jacket maker’s point of view, you can’t win with an Indyfan. I myself have no problem telling most of you guys that you’re crazy. Some of you are “all right”, I guess. Cheers

Some of the virtues that are tauted about the Expedition (I thought it was made by Ford, not Harrison, either) crack me up. Like the "military spec stitching". That could mean anything from "fall apart after one use" for something the militaty feels is a disposable item to "stitched with unobtainium thread or something" for some critical item. It all depends on what spec the militay used. Of course, this is one of the things used to justify it's high price.

Watch it Buff. Sharks patrol these water. Don't let your feet dangle in the water. Sharks patrol these waters. Don't forget your dayglow orange life preserver.

C'mon now, Rundquist. Weren't you one of those longing for screen accuracy when the Expedition was in production? I know alot of us see different things but to call us crazy? And you can't take a look at the current Wings jacket and tell any of us there aren't some legitimate differences both from the Hero or Stunt jackets used in any of the movies. All you have to do is pop any of the movies in and it's obvious. Of course, you'd just revert to something about the Expedition and how marvelous it is...and it is. Now, I used to be a hardcore Wested guy but I now think every jacket has it's place. Wested is close. Expedition is close. Wings is just a bit farther off than it should be when making the claims that started this thread to begin with. That's all I'm saying. They most likely made jackets for the films, yes. But to say you're getting the same jacket is just not true. A good interpritation yes, but not close enough to make the claim.

OK. I'm ready for the attack.

ha ha rundquist....consider me one of the crazy folk! agent 5, you stole my fire on this reply....so i guess i'll just have to agree with what you stated. but for my own piece of mind:

us wings - not close enough but a #### of a bargain
expedition - not close enough and a real working jacket
wested - not close enough and you'd be gosh darn lucky if all of the revisions were carried out to make it close enough....and if they miss your request for a 1/2 x-box on the rear strap...you're sol. good luck on the return policy
todds - gosh darn close enough.
flightjacket - we will see

Wow. You “crazies” need to chill.

i have seen them from rundquist's posts. and todd's jacket is patterned after the expedition (i think it was g-mann that sent him his as a roadmap on the pattern....but i know todd had one to work with).

my eyes tell me that the jacket has top shelf construction. that is also confirmed with what i have read here but i wish i could handle one so i can know for sure.

the differences that i see is that todd has corrected the strap/hardware configuration and has tapered the barrel sleeves that come standard with the expo. i am assuming that this is a function of how large the arm openings are and the amount of taper to the cuff. also, considering on how old the expo is and if it needed correction, the collar meets the stormflap at the halfway point. i have seen expo's with both the screen accurate configuration and wested's configuration. also, the silver zipper goes right down to the jacket bowels....sorry felt like getting metaphorical there

i would have ordered an expo but they won't give me the option to hem the sleeves which has always been my problem with off the rack jackets. i don't think they would even entertain any pattern modifications for the extra dough.

On the same level you have a jacket based on a screen used jacket (the Expedition) and you have people saying “it aint right”.

are you impliying that the expedition is accurate? I think we are as much crazy as much the expedition is accurate.

(putting helmet on)

I'll be out in the Plymouth listening to the radio if anyone needs me.

When you all get tired of kicking all of this around.....again.....please be sure to turn out the lights as you leave the room.

"Crazies", Adam? You, as a self proclaimed 'reformed' crazy yourself...isn't that kind of like the pot calling the kettle 'black'?

Regards! Michaelson

Forgive me, Lord, for I know not what I've done...

Funny - the sleeves on the three expo's I have are all tapered. Oh - I forgot... I have actually handled an Expo so I actually know...

The zip will not go all the way down because on a well-made jacket it should not...

This is the first I've ever heard that they do not alter sleeve length off the rack at no charge... ???

perhaps its rundquist's preference of larger jackets that provide this illusion but if the sleeve falls straight down without catching an elbow here or a forearm there or not stop at the wrist, the sleeves will not drape to my liking.

i never claimed that the hero jacket was a well made jacket, but the zipper going to the bottom is a collector's necessity.

...and you may be correct in flightsuits being able to alter the sleeves...i perhaps just grouped that with the other alterations that they refused to do. regardless, i got into indy gear and this forum as i think its fun to collect and actually wear your wares. alot of guys just want a jacket that resembles the jacket from the movie franchise. alot of guys just want well made jackets to last generations. i have certain personal standards in what i collect and obtain as many other hobbyists do. to each his own i guess. i won't buy from flightsuits as there is not enough flexibility in customization and it's not close enough for me IMO and i'm not willing to spend $50 to $60 in shipping to confirm that.

....here comes the axe...its coming now....i can feel the woosh....its....its....

What I was trying to say was that the Expedition is based on a screen used jacket and it’s still not “good enough” for some people. I only brought up the Expedition to illustrate a point about the Wings jacket (and Indy jackets in general), and what the makers of these jackets are up against in dealing with the fan base.

You’ll have to forgive me if I find it amusing that the Wings jacket has gotten farther away from “accuracy” based on fan expectations and revisions.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am a reformed “crazy”. I’m here to tell you all, “O’ brother, don’t do as I have done”. Life’s too short. I was sort of amusing myself (and hopefully others), at some peoples’ expense. I’ll try to restrain myself in the future. We don’t want any hurt feelings here.

_ wrote: You're all chasing the "perfect woman" - i.e. you are guaranteed to fail... And the irony of chasing the perfect woman is that you’ll never get laid…

That’s the point I was trying to make, beautifully illustrated.

_ wrote:

Rundquist wrote:We don’t want any hurt feelings here.

Speak for yourself - there's nothing so cathartic as a good cry on the part of any true jacket-junkie... I get my fix by occasionally ordering a Wested and expecting it to look remotely screen accurate - or even just stay together for more than a few weeks...

See previous comment about the "perfect woman"... Guess that's why Hugh Heffner is so danged-rich...

Just trying to remain “PC”. That’s very important in this day and age as we all know.

rundquist, _.....the fun is IN the chase....and how much destruction that is caused in your wake, both to yourself and your surroundings ....moowa ha ha ha ha {insert evil laugh here }.

i hear yah _. no offense taken at all ....that is quite true actually. i use to say that all the time when i was single and celebate.

i haven't......but my wife has

_ wrote:
Bink – Think that was as good a string closer as the hooker in the duck suit?

Nope. Try this:

I suppose that true collectors are "crazy" to a point. I know that I have chased and collected SA Star Trek TOS phasers, communicators, and tricorders for years. I have phaser and communicator props made by some fantastic prop artists, commercial models, etc... We sit around looking at screenshots, and track histories just like IJ jackets & gear here..

I am STILL looking for the "perfect" phaser / communicator / tricorder... :

Same goes for my Conan Atlantean sword, LOTR sword collection, etc...

I WILL get a SA Raiders jacket!! "Technonut says as he rolls the 2 metal balls around in his hand" 8-[

bink,

you're picture wasn't far enough off track to shut the thread down....he's still wearing an indy jacket.

for the sake of the thread......at least bink can argue without a doubt...that he did indeed provide the jacket for peter pan as seen in the cow "jacket wars" threads......

I think some people are more satisfied with what they think they are seeing rather than something that is based on actual hard, physical evidence aka the expedition. US Wings, Flightjacket, and here comes the killer, Wested are jackets not based on screen used jackets, as far as I have seen evidence of. The Expedition is the only replica jacket to actually be based on a screen used jacket (thank you _, Lee Keppler, and MK). All people should have to do is look at Wested before the Expedition, which were horrible in pattern mainly. Then look at Wested's after the Expedition, boy did it change that's one thing I have always called a red flag. Now we have Todd's, which is a mix of _'s work on the Expedition and what people have deemed more screen accurate. So god willing we may have a jacket we all can agree on.....but I wouldn't count on it, lol No offense meant to Todd cause I have a jacket coming from him. Think what you want but always examine all angles.

Think what you want but always examine all angles.

...and always follow up _ and Rundquist on just about any thread dealing with the Expedition. I was wondering what took you so long.