Club Obi Wan

I made a video for Vince Bruce the other day about whip maintenance as it pertains to two-handed whip cracking, as well as about 40 minutes worth of explanations and demonstrations of some advanced two-handed routines. I go through about 7 of the hardest routines I know.

I thought it turned out well, so I'm having DVD copies made and offering them for sale. PM me if interested in a copy.

Relatively low production value (no music, smoke, or mirrors, just me in my backyard), but everything is framed well, easy to see, and I think I put in tons of good information.

With this style of making video, it's fairly easy, so I might make a few more, maybe even one dedicated to cracking Indy-style bullwhips (or at least my thoughts on cracking Indy whips).

Actually, now that I think about it, if I did a video covering the basics of whipcracking, that's how I'd do it: use an Indy whip and gear it towards the new whip owner who just bought an Indy whip.

I really like stockwhips, but when I pick up a stockwhip I only want to do fancy stuff, but the Indy whips slow me down and make me do more basic cracks.

If there's any interest in a video/DVD like that, I'll get to work on it ASAP.

-Adam
www.winrichwhips.com

PS: I love all the names you guys came up with to use as my stage name. To keep things simple for this summer I'm going to go with 'Bullwhip Baxter,' but I'll make a list of all the names for a reference for next summer.

Personally since I just got an IOAB from you a week ago and have never cracked a whip before getting it (yep, I have been able to crack yours! so cool!) I think it will be cool to get tips and techniques from the one who made my whip.

Keep us posted on it if it becomes an actual project!

Will you still be selling this advanced dvd while after you finish this Indy cracking video because if so then I'll just wait and buy them all at the same time.

I shot a 'Bullwhip Basics' video tonight. I'll send the tape off tomorrow to have a DVD made and we'll see how it goes. If it goes well, I should have a nice beginner's DVD, though right now I'm not sure when it will be available for sale.

Along with 6 basic whip cracks explained in detail, I threw in an example of the 'Cairo Crack' on the footage that I filmed for this 'basics' video

-Adam
www.myspace.com/adamwinrich

All the copies of the two-handed DVD are sold out and I'm not sure if I'll have more copies made or not.

Does anyone out there have experience in making an instructional video? My main question is:

If I put together a video explaining whip tricks, and I explain a trick that was created by someone else, and I'm selling the video at a profit, what do I have to do to make it so I'm not ripping that person off?

Is there any approach that's legally sound?

I mean, I could put together a nice video of routines that I made up myself, but I'd love to be able to put together a video explaining my favorite routines, most of which I learned from other people. It just feels like if I sold a video about other people's routines, someone is getting ripped off.

I really need the Dans to chime in on this one (Borton and Trout, that is)

-Adam

A-
The guy to ask would be Mike Murphy.
If I'm not mistaken, his video has a number of routines with credit given to the originators. I really can't imagine a royaty issue though ... as long as you give credit where it's due.
That being said though ... I'm no botanist, so you may want to have that checked out.

Perhaps you could ask Simon Martin.

C

Adam, Aside from Mike, Paul Stenhouse and Simon Martin might be the ones to better talk to here on IndyGear. They both have experience in making professional instructional whip training videos. Simon particularly, as he covered several other sport whip crackers routines aside from the standards and his own on his DVD. He does give proper credit to them but I don’t know if he had to pay any type of royalty fees to them or have them to sign a waver allowing him to use them.

While In this day an age I imagine it’s entirely possible to "copyright" an act or a routine, I’ve never heard it being done in whip cracking. It sounds silly just because if some one comes up with a series of cracks to form a specific combination, the individual cracks themselves are the fundamentals and foundation skills, its just the way that they are combined and pulled off that make them unique. But at what point does someone’s combination or idea becomes public domain? I don’t know. Since each established routine is worth a series of points in sanctioned and judged public whip cracking competitions, wouldn’t that make it fair game that if you can perform them, that you can use them.

I can certainly understand and appreciate not wanting to offend anyone who came up with an original routine by showcasing it and breaking it down in your own video. This is probably more of a ethical “gray” area then a cut and dry legal one, though I could be wrong. I know of one Australian sport cracker who said that since no one was doing her routines justice on any of the training videos they made, she decided to make her own tapes to show them how to do it right so it sounds like this has been an issue before. Clearly many videos being sold today show some variation of routines like the Queensland flash, Sydney flash or the “Arrow head” with out giving credit to who came up with them first, if any one even knows. So what makes a more advanced routine like the “Murrumbidgee Echo” or “Under the Arches” more special, I don’t know who invented them off hand either lol. Obviously something like “Bens Helicopter”, “Simons lightning” or “Hassttes 4 corners” which are named after the individual who created them make it more cut and dry that credit should be given. So If your planning on featuring some one else’s routine then I think its in the very least common courtesy to contact the person who came up with it and ask them if they mind you featuring there routine in your DVD. If they put up a fuss, don’t use it or change it an enough to make it more your own.

Sorry I couldn’t give you a more clear-cut answer. I seen you posted this question on the WE group too so I’ll be curious to hear other opinions on this topic too. Personally I’d like to see you do more DVDs, especially one showing the various complex 2 handed routines in detail, because that’s the only way many of us will ever be able to learn them.

Dan

I don't think you can copywrite a physical movement. Franco Harris' immaculate reception was even named, but everytime a football is tipped up in the air, every player in the vicinity is trying to make the same kind of catch. He can't copywrite it and prevent other football players from copying it.

You can't copyright a whip crack....period.

Here's a quote from the copyright office's website:

"Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed"

A whip crack is a system of opperation and that would be a patent issue...however good luck patenting a specific motion to make a whip crack! I don't think you can patent a human motion.

You can copyright the words (written) you use to describe a whip crack routine and then if someone was to describe it they would have to use thier own words to describe it...not yours.

If someone wanted to protect thier original cracking sequence they could possibly copyright particular crack as "stage direction". That's how choreographers protect thier work.

Also remember that copyrighted material expires, so if someone had an original sequence before 1927 (I think it was that year) it's public domain.

As for teaching someone else's original pattern or technique, it's more of an ethical issue than a copyright issue. The proper thing to do (in my opinion) is to ask thier permission and always properly credit people on the finished product. The amount of money you'd be dealing with for royalties is soo small due to the limited market, you be better off giving the creator a stack of DVD's for them to sell or make coasters out of.

xoxo

Louie

Thanks, Louie and Dan.

I guess before I didn't break it down into 'legal' and 'ethical' issues, I just kind of lumped the two ideas together and called them 'my problem'.

Now that I think of it in terms of ethics, things are clearer for me. Yes, ethically I should ask permission first before putting someone else's routine on a video that's for sale.

I've already emailed Simon Martin about making a video, and I hope to talk with him on the phone soon about the issue, and now that I know we're talking about ethics, it'll probably go smoother.

-Adam

PS: Dan Borton, I don't know how far you are from Kalamazoo, MI, but I'll be performing at the Silverleaf Ren Faire the first weekend of August.

Oh, I forgot to include my little disclaimer at the end of my previous post:

I am not an lawyer and you should consult an attorney before making any decisions.

xoxo
louie

Oh, I forgot that, too. I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

LOL, Bufflehead

Simon and I have shot a couple emails back and forth, and between that and some of the posts on the Whip Enthusiasts Yahoo! group, I'm fairly sure now that my main problem is an ethical issue and not a legal one.

So I'm not worried that neither you nor Louie are lawyers, though I do appreciate your comments on the issue.

-Adam
www.myspace.com/adamwinrich

No problem Adam, keep us posted on what you find out and if you do decide to make more videos. I’d really like to get copies. My double-handed whip cracking could use improvment.

I don't know how far you are from Kalamazoo, MI, but I'll be performing at the Silverleaf Ren Faire the first weekend of August.

Thanks for letting me know about this. I’m in the Detroit area, Kalamazoo is about a 2-hour ride from here, give or take. I’d like to try to make it out though, it would be worth it. I've been to the Michigan Renaissance festival but I’ve never been to the Silver leaf festival, so this gives me real good excuse to try to make it this year.

I’m in the process of forming up a Michigan whip-cracking group. Its still small but some of the member are big on Renaissance festivals. I’ll let them know your performing that weekend too, I really think they would get a lot out of seeing you performing as well.

Dan