Club Obi Wan

i borrowed this picture from the fedora faq's. as you can see there is a slight back taper that we are all quite familiar with. this is something that i've been trying to recreate but have yet to have much success with. i know that erri, $3K had done quite well with this so i wanted to pose the question of how this can be done.

HF was a long oval in head shape so i believe this plays a major role in that. i also believe that you would need to deepen the center dent more than usual to get this effect. unfortunately, when i try this, the dreaded taper rears its ugly head so perhaps it has something to do with HF's long oval head shaping a regular oval hat. now if i wanted to recreate this, and having a regular oval head, would i need a crown thats almost circular to get this effect? would i comprimise any other intracacies of the raiders hat in doing so?

marc, steve, any thoughts?

this is something that i've been trying to recreate but have yet to have much success with.

Sure, I will tell ya how to pull this off. But let's examine the pic carefully to see what is really going on with this hat, in the back.

Ok, first, look at the bottom of the ribbon. Now, if you drew a 90 degree line straight up from the bottom of the ribbon, you would find that the reverse taper that you see, isn't exactly true reverse taper. It just appears to be reverse taper. This illusion is created when you take a really soft felt hat, and tighten up the top of the ribbon to where it is smaller than the diameter of the hat. If you will notice, the bottom of the ribbon is at one point, but as you travel up the width of the ribbon, the ribbon actually does not go straight up at a 90 degree angle. Look closesly, the ribbon actually curves inward, so the there is a small arc, starting at the bottom of the ribbon, and ending at the top of the ribbon.

I am sieving words here, as I want to distinquish true reverse taper from a bulge in the felt. The Raiders fedora has a bulge in the felt, due to the particular characteristics of that felt. Some felt will bulge out if enticed, and some just won't do it. Or at least, it is very difficult to pull it off in certain felt. Not impossible, but it would require you really literally beating up the felt to breakdown the stiffener that most hats have at least a little bit of.

Ok, back to the hat. Here is another pic that shows the bulge.




You can verify the ribbon being smaller at the top, than the bottom in this pic, and you can see the back of the hat bulging slightly over the ribbon. But, if you drew a perpendicular line straight up from the bottom of the ribbon, you would see that the back of the hat, just touches the make believe 90 degree angled line. So, the back of the hat is actually practically straight from that view, using the bottom of the ribbon as the starting point.

Here is an HJ, the one that was not turned, and was creased higher in the back.





Notice you have none of the bulging going on with this hat. It looks brand new to me. Almost fresh out of the box. Now if you compare this hat, to this hat.........



it is clear the Cairo hat, had the heck beat out of it. And to me, it looks like the sweat has been removed, and the ribbon was made smaller than the diameter of the hat, with the top of the ribbon being a smaller circumference than the bottom of the ribbon Perhaps this was done because in that heat that was discussed in those Indy behind the scenes videos, the hat was just too hot to wear with the sweatband in. If you want a cool summer felt hat, take out the liner, and removed the sweat!! It works, as I have a hat like that. It is the most comfortable hat I own too. And the absence of the sweat makes the hat expoentially cooler to wear in high heat. Of course, if you remove the sweat, the hat is too large, so you tighten up the ribbon to size it down. Makes sense, and I can verify that it does indeed work, as long a the felt is soft enough.

Now, you recall that front crease/indentation at on the front bash of the hat, that 3M$ sewed into his so it would stay, and be accurate to the Cairo hat? Well, if you take a really soft hat like the Raiders fedora, take out the sweat, make the ribbon smaller in diameter than the hat, (trial and error on the perfect length of ribbon), you would get the back bulge with some coaxing, and since the ribbon is smaller than the hat that front indentation that 3M$ sewed into his hat, will stay there, permananently. I mean, the felt has to fold in somewhere, and all you have to do is make sure it folds in there for accuracy.

Hope this helps out. Fedora

fedora,

as usual, you are the man!

thank you for that indepth explanation. it sure sums up alot of things. its comical how this answer was right in front of my nose as i would picture how a 'bulge' would look on my rabbit ab by pressing against the ribbon on the back side of the hat. (i blame $3K for clouding my thoughts on how to get this ).

i've been tinkering with my rabbit ab alot as of late. i put in the right side channel in last night (gotta love this rabbit felt!). and i wanted to get that bulge happenen but i don't want to go to those lengths just yet.

cheers!

Hey guys,

Why does it look like the distances from the back of HF's ear to the back of the hat in the raven bar and the temple are different? Is it because of the screen grab or could these two be different sizes?


Thanks,
MS

the hat from the temple is unturned and less cinched (sp?). i do not know if this hat was rebashed and tightened and then became our beloved raiders hat or if it was replaced entirely.

also on the temple hat, the brim is quite flat / not as flanged up as the raven bar hat.

I took a moment and cinched up a ribbon on a new HJ, prior to cutting the brim. I did not do anything to it, like wadding it up, because I am using it for a hat, and didn't think the customer would want a pre distressed hat. So, it is brand new, never worn, fresh off the block, and still has the 3 inch brim. Looks funny as the hat is a 6 7/8 sized hat. You can see a little bulge at the back, that could very well be accented if I sat on the hat. But, this will illustrate what I was talking about. Also, notice the indentation on the front bash. It is permanent, as long as the ribbon stays tight. This hat would really look great if I beat it up, threw some Fuller's Earth on it and had the brim reflanged and cut down to the good specs. Fedora

Fedora, that HJ looks EXCELLENT!!!

Tightening up the ribbon alone did THAT!?!?

I'm especially impressed by the way it seems to create the infamous "pleat" in the front dent. Very cool indeed...

Any chance of getting a hat with the ribbon tightened to these specs? Also, would wearing the hat alter the look at all?

-GCR

Tightening up the ribbon alone did THAT!?!?

Yeah, that is all I did to it, other than throw in a generic crease.

Any chance of getting a hat with the ribbon tightened to these specs? Also, would wearing the hat alter the look at all?

Well, you would have to live with no sweatband inside the hat!! I don't see how wearing the hat would alter the look. Probably look better on a head too, than just sitting on a block.

It would be hard to pull this off with a sweatband inside the hat. Not impossible, but hard. To make a 7 1/4 hat, I would have to make the hat a 7 3/8, then size the sweat to a 7 1/4 hat size, and drum it in the hat. Now, the ribbon would pull the 7 3/8 hat in to the undersized 7 1/4 sweatband, which should therorectically give you the starting point for this look. If you just tightened up the ribbon on a hat that was sized for your current head size, it would wrinkle up the sweat and be really uncomfortable to wear!! Not to mention ugly. But, it would not fit either, due to the sweat being wrinkled up. So, the best route is no sweat. And that may be screen accurate. I can't see how Ford could have had a sweatband in that hat in question. It is illogical. Fedora

Oh, if you look at the brim in my pics, you can almost see a wire in it!! It is odd that when you cinch up the ribbon, it sorta affects more than just the back of the hat.
Fedora

Fedora wrote: Well, you would have to live with no sweatband inside the hat!!

Ah HA! So that's the catch...hmmm, oh well, nevermind...

-GCR

tone, why'd you change your screen name?

Aeris_Canon wrote:The generic crease is really what needs to be looked at for most of this look. A lot of folks skip past the important step of the side definition. It really affects how the front of the hat looks.

While concentrating so much on the top dent, the lowered back and brim curl, they tend to rush past the side definition and just press it inward and start looking for how much back tilt the hat does or doesn't have.
It really makes a huge difference in getting the Raiders look out of a hat. It also gives a counter-balance visually to the taper a hat might get when the sides are just pushed in with a correct top dent. Defining the sides is a bigger "Key" to the generic bash than utilized and it is often skipped or missing in a lot of hats.

You can get a lot of Raiders look out of that step alone.

Agreed. That's a step I always take when bashing a hat Raiders style. It IS more important than many folks think. I've made the mistake of skipping over it myself in the past, but now I know better. Thanks to my old Fed Deluxe for that...that rugged old hat served me well with my years of continuous tweaking and rebashing. It was during one of my many rebash attempts that I finally figured out about getting the right definition in the side dents and how this plays into the whole entire look of the hat. Not just right away, but over time as well. Helps keep the sides straighter, longer, I found. Now it's an essential step whenever I go for a Raiders bash. Though I do intetionally skip it when going for the more traditional, "loose pinch" look of LC or ToD. Good point to bring up, Mr. Canon.

-GCR

Indiana G wrote:tone, why'd you change your screen name?

Tone? Who's Tone?

-GCR

hey steve,

this is exactly the look i want for sure. e-mail sent.

cheers,



g

Fedora wrote: If you just tightened up the ribbon on a hat that was sized for your current head size, it would wrinkle up the sweat and be really uncomfortable to wear!! Not to mention ugly. But, it would not fit either, due to the sweat being wrinkled up. So, the best route is no sweat. And that may be screen accurate. I. Fedora

The hat would not fit, as the wrinkling of the sweat would size the hat down?

Would a sweatless hat, ribbon tightened only, retain its sizing for any length of time? Removing the sweat sizes the hat up, correct? The tight ribbon would be the only thing preventing the felt bucket from flopping around my ears, true?

How sturdy is hat ribbon?

Sincerely,

Dr.Seuss wrote:
How sturdy is hat ribbon?

Not as sturdy as a leather sweatband...

-GCR

So the sweatless hat, ribbon cinched only, stays on for one wearing?

Looks exceptional, otherwise. (Anyone have a safety pin?)

Sincerely,

i would prefer a sweat in the hat as the leather on skin friction will help keep it on your head on windy days.

in the raven bar scenes, indy's hat still had the sweat inside of it....but perhaps it was all crinkled from cinching the ribbon?

So the sweatless hat, ribbon cinched only, stays on for one wearing?

Oh no, far from it. One of my summer hats has been sweatbandless for 2 years. If you really wanted a sweatband, you could opt out for a cloth one, like they put in some Panama hats. My own has none, and unlike the leather, it won't shrink up to get too tight. Stays the same size. Of course, you will sweat through the hat, but hey, sweat stains look good-sometimes.

If anyone decides to try this with their own hat, here is the secret. Fully assemble the ribbon, a size smaller than the hat, so that you have a sewn circle of ribbon. Sew it together well, Then, just crumple the hat up by pushing the sides in, and slide the too tight ribbon over the hat. If you try to install the ribbon as you would normally, you will never get it tight enough. It may take a couple of fittings to get it perfect. I could have tighened up that above ribbon another 1/4 an inch, and it would look even better. But, I was in a hurry. Fedora

Fedora wrote:I took a moment and cinched up a ribbon on a new HJ, prior to cutting the brim. I did not do anything to it, like wadding it up, because I am using it for a hat, and didn't think the customer would want a pre distressed hat. So, it is brand new, never worn, fresh off the block, and still has the 3 inch brim. Looks funny as the hat is a 6 7/8 sized hat. You can see a little bulge at the back, that could very well be accented if I sat on the hat. But, this will illustrate what I was talking about. Also, notice the indentation on the front bash. It is permanent, as long as the ribbon stays tight. This hat would really look great if I beat it up, threw some Fuller's Earth on it and had the brim reflanged and cut down to the good specs. Fedora

Fedora,
I just have to know...is that a 6 7/8 to a 7, "Peru, Ready to switch the idol" HJ? Just wondering.

John
J.N.C.

in the raven bar scenes, indy's hat still had the sweat inside of it....but perhaps it was all crinkled from cinching the ribbon

You can pull it off with the sweat still in, IF the sweat is really soft. Also, Ford's head shape isn't making contact with the area where the ribbon ends, on the top side. Someone may have tightened the fit up on his hat by cinching the ribbon. It sure looks like it to me. Compare the Raiders ribbon to TLC ribbon and you can see the Raiders ribbon is really tight by comparison. In fact, TLC ribbon actually is larger than the hat, on the top edge. It gaps open. Fedora

Fedora,
I just have to know...is that a 6 7/8 to a 7, "Peru, Ready to switch the idol" HJ? Just wondering.

John

That is what it will eventually be, yes. Must be yours. Fedora

....or the "holy cr*p this mercedes emblem is not going to hold me" hat.

the idol grab hat (and the raven bar hat) still had a sweat in it so it wasn't as "pleated" as the SOC or german truck chase hat.

Aeris_Canon wrote:No.

That is a Cairo "drinking at the table with a monkey after Marion's death," HJ.

Dito

Fedora wrote: You can pull it off with the sweat still in, IF the sweat is really soft. Fedora

So, the thinnest, softest, lightest, leather sweatband, and an overtightened ribbon, will recreate this look. Having your cake and eating it also? Thoughts on who may be selling such a tissue paper leather sweatband?

Sincerely,

Aeris_Canon wrote:

prairiejones wrote:

Aeris_Canon wrote:No.

That is a Cairo "drinking at the table with a monkey after Marion's death," HJ.

Dito

IndianaG wrote:....or the "holy cr*p this mercedes emblem is not going to hold me" hat.

the idol grab hat (and the raven bar hat) still had a sweat in it so it wasn't as "pleated" as the SOC or german truck chase hat

For as much as that hat's going back to an Idol grab bash there are probably thirty of us out there yelling, "Noooooooooooooo! Leave it!"

I'll leave it in Fedora's more than capable hands to do what he wants with the lid as it looks fantastic even now.

And just for comparason...a shot from my wedding day in a stetson.


John

Whacky question:

Fedora, if you took a hat body, blocked it to a size 7 1/2, and then put on the ribbon as you explained above, but had the ribbon sized for a 7 3/8 hat, the excess felt, folded as it is above, would create a similar look, right? Now, once the hat had the 7 3/8 size ribbon attached, what would prevent you from installing a 7 3/8 size sweatband inside? And how would that effect the look of the hat?

-GCR

The same effect can be seen on a hat that has been worn in rain and sun, and the cotton ribbon shrunk from the exposure.
We see this all the time from well used Akubra fedoras.....at least mine always did.

I'd say theorically it can be recreated using a tighter ribbon than the actual hat size. All that tells me is the wearer will soon have a headache from the tighter ribbon around their forehead. This has always been one of those 'look vs. comfort' things I've never followed. I want a nice look, but if it's to tight and uncomfortable, I'm not interested.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora, if you took a hat body, blocked it to a size 7 1/2, and then put on the ribbon as you explained above, but had the ribbon sized for a 7 3/8 hat, the excess felt, folded as it is above, would create a similar look, right? Now, once the hat had the 7 3/8 size ribbon attached, what would prevent you from installing a 7 3/8 size sweatband inside? And how would that effect the look of the hat?

Yeah, that is basically what I said in another post above. Take a 7 1/2, drum in a 7 3/8 sweat, and then cinch up the ribbon to something close to a 7 3/8. In theory, it sounds like it would work. It should give you something similiar to the above hat, I would think. I wish I had to the time to just goof off and try it to see. Maybe one day. I guess this might be a way to best replicate the Cairo hat, that is for sure. The only unknown is how the sweat would react to the dimple created on the front, by the overly tight ribbon. It seems to me, the sweat wouldn't care much about being bent. If you notice on the pics I posted above, you can see that dent traveling beneath the ribbon, all the way to the brim break. The sweat would not allow this to happen. So, as I said, that is unknown territory for me. Fedora

The same channel is there in the Elstree shots, it's just more obvious in the Tunisian direct sunlight. My ribbons aren't overly tight lately- it tends to wreck the front pinch. If the pleat is sewn, the ribbon doesn't have to be very tight. ...Then again, Ford's forehead tilts back more than mine, so I have to sew the pleat. - Tightly folding the felt inwards along the top of the ribbon, repeatedly, in the back and sides of your hat will get your hat looking like it has a tightened ribbon.

My ribbons aren't overly tight lately- it tends to wreck the front pinch.

How so? I did not notice any difficulty with the front pinch. I did just not pinch it tight all the way down as this hat was actually for someone, and I just pushed a too tight ribbon over the hat to illustrate a point. In fact, from the little that I worked with this hat, the tight ribbon seemed to make the front dents pull in deeper, ala the Raiders fedora. Fedora

hey erri, if you're kick'n around this thread:

your previous avatar had you showing off the gorgeous side profile of your hat. how did you get the back to do the reverse taper/bulge so nicely?

A front pinch gets flattend before a grove in the felt forms, in my experience, but head shape and felt stiffness might change that. I tighten my ribbons a bit though. If I can get backtilt/bulge with a Federation, it should be easier to get with an AB. If you sew a pleat, you have to adjust the ribbon tighter, because it becomes loose.

if you take a larger sized hat, pinch it smaller to create the channel, i find that you get a beautiful profile out of it as per the raven bar profile. ie - the front of the crown is nice and full tapering back to the rear of the crown.

another thing i have noticed is that since there's extra "junk in the trunk" in the crown, you do not get nearly as much of a tapered look when viewing the hat from 2 or 10 o'clock position (no, i didn't set my alarm to go view the hat ). this mirage like taper is due to the side dents but if you have a larger crown, the side dents do not need to be pushed in as far to get the look you want.

the rear has got a very small, tiny back taper/bulge that is barely evident but can be worked on by pushing the crown to the back of your head when wear ing it. i'm sure that when the felt gets softer, this will become more and more evident.

one thing to mention though is that by creating the channel, i found that the brim was quite difficult to work with in getting the raiders look to it. the shape of your head would change the way the brim looks so when you think you've nailed the look in your hands, you put her on and it deforms out of your control. i had to iron the brim out a couple times to get her to sit. in the end, i think i got my holy grail of hats .....11th times the charm i guess.

i will try to post pics later on.