Club Obi Wan

Here’s a recent article asserting that Cury originated the Indy fedora. That’s been discussed before, but here a manager (and heir) of the company offers some background. It seems to be mostly hype on the part of Cury, and not entirely credible in light of what has previously been established, but there may indeed be some small grain of truth here. I had to post this one for 3K$!

The full article: http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/9854/80/

Here’s an excerpt:

Indiana Jones's Brazilian Connection: the Fedora
Written by Geovana Pagel
Thursday, 05 April 2007

The famous hat worn by actor Harrison Ford in the Indiana Jones movies was developed at Vicente Cury hat factory in Brazil. Established by a Lebanese immigrant, Cury has been developing hats for men and women since 1920. But no other model has been as successful as the one used in the Hollywood production.

To date, the Indiana Jones hat is the most sold by the Brazilian factory. Production totals over 60,000 units a year.

"The design, the material, the color, it was all defined here," stated factory director Paulo Cury Zakia. He explains that in the beginning of the 1980s, a factory and distributor of hats located in Texas, which had already been Cury's client for over 10 years, was one of the companies that sponsored "Raiders of the Lost Ark", the first film of the series.

"We were visited by two of the company representatives, by the president and by the person responsible for approval of the model," he said.

"When the film was released, in 1981, the hat became a global fad. At that time, we sold over one million units," stated Zakia. Success only increased in the following years.

-Mac

If they're making 60,000 Indy styled hats a year...where are they?

The design, the material, the color, it was all defined here," stated factory director Paulo Cury Zakia. He explains that in the beginning of the 1980s, a factory and distributor of hats located in Texas, which had already been Cury's client for over 10 years, was one of the companies that sponsored "Raiders of the Lost Ark", the first film of the series.

I think they are muddying the waters. It is apparent to me, that what Cury is referring to is the first licensed model, sold through Stetson. The Texas connection is the key here. But not only did Stetson get help from Cury, but also many other hat factories. Heck, even the factory that makes the Camptown made Indy fedoras during this time period. There was just too much demand following the films for the major hat producers to keep up. I finally NOW understand the Cury connection. Fedora

So, Steve, this is why some of the earlier hats had different levels of quality? That would make sense.

You are right Steve. This is what Paulo confirmed to me when I met him last year. They have made hats for Stetson for years, including the Indy hat. To him (like many) any of the Indiana Jones movies are "Raiders" - it's all the same. It could be that their hat was the one used in the film under their licensing agreement. But I even doubt that. To him, he made the "official" hat for Indiana Jones.

So, Steve, this is why some of the earlier hats had different levels of quality? That would make sense.

That would certainly explain it to me. You would see varied felt in these hats, just depending upon who actually made the hat.

The Cury connection appears to be linked with the licensed models sold post films. And to me, this is ludicrous to take that fact and then link it back to the film hat. I call that muddying the waters.

There may have been Hatco hats that were placed in a scene in the TOD and TLC film, as marketing ploys for Hatco, or Stetson, but I think we can all agree that the Raiders fedora was an HJ with no placements. Heck, they had no idea the Indy franchise would take off like it did at that point. And it is ironic, that when the hat was capitalized upon to make money, after the success of the first film, the hats in the last two films did not have that great look as the first original hat did. It seems that when the other hat brands entered into the equation, the hat suffered!! It is no surprise that even to this day, most of us still throw rocks at the Official Licensed hat. Perhaps, the HJ changed to the more tapered look, to mimic what Stetson was gonna sell after the films!!!! It is funny that the idea of making money on the Indy hat, MAY have influenced how the hat changed from that grand Raiders fedora, to the inferiour TOD and LC hat.

I got samples from Cury a few years ago. All that I will say, is what they sent me was the worst felt that I have run across since I have been interested in hats. Yeah, it was certainly the modern Stetson quality felt.


One wonders why HJ did not figure in to the after film Official hats. Of course, to me it is obvious why. Did HJ NOT want to sell millions of Indy fedoras? I just can't imagine any business not wanting to make millions of dollars, selling what they were in the business to sell!!! I don't think they were ever offered a deal. I think Hatco eased their way in, as this was very traditional for the old and original Stetson company. They even had reps in Hollywood who worked the film industry prior to 1971. I am sure they still had them even after Stetson closed its doors and licensed out the right to use the name Stetson.

Heck, we never knew who made Indy's hat until some fan got the chance to look at a film hat, and then told Lee Kepler. I think most thought it was Stetson!!

The main point is, HJ made the first hat, and also furnished the hats for the other two films. That is obvious. I think it is funny that Lucas Inc kept going back to HJ for Indy's hat, but would sell you an Official hat that wasn't even close to most hat we see in the films. They cut HJ out of the equation entirely!! Of course, HJ would not make and sell hats priced in the range of the official Indy hats. That may be the reason. I can just hear Swales now. You want me to make a hat, and sell it for 40 bucks??!!! What do you want me to make it out of? Brown paper?? Fedora

So, Steve, this is why some of the earlier hats had different levels of quality? That would make sense.

Well, truth is, Swales started stirring the waters way back in the mid 80's, as he told several of us that HJ had sourced their felt from a felter located in Portugal....or South America....he couldn't remember for sure which, but at the time of the phone calls (1985) they had stopped using that company as a supplier.

Several folks did further research, and the Cury name came to the surface as being the biggest exporter of felt to the UK and Portugal prior to 1980. At the time, Cury claimed to be the source of the material, not the hat itself.

So, that's another 'Cury' connection...and based on clues offered by the maker himself....

No proof, but in calls made in the late 90's by a member of Indyfan to Cury, they DID claim to be supplier to HJ during that time period, and offered to send invoice copies to the caller....but that was all I ever heard after that.

So, more rumors and conjecture to toss on top of the pile.....

Regards! Michaelson

That they were a supplier to in the late 70's and early 80's was what I was told by both HJ and Cury.

HJ's supplier for the poet just after that changed to Borsalino. At that time borsalino was making good quality hats.

Jimmy

Thanks, JP. That's what I was told as well.

Regards! Michaelson

When dealing with Paulo, language is a barrier. And he is not an Indiana Jones afficianado(sp?). He does not know the details of the films, sources, etc. He is sincerely confused about the Stetson/film connection (or ignorant of it). All he knows is that he made the official Indiana Jones hat - the REAL one. Sold millions...very big everywhere... and the incessant attempts by fans to get him to connect himself with the movies have only confused him more and actually forced him to incorrectly connect dots that don't connect.

HJ might have bought felt from Cury, who knows? The sell a lot of felt. There's no way for Paulo to know what a hatter does with the felt he buys. I hear there is a lot of felt makers in South America. But that's not what's at the root of his claims.

I think the Cury connection goes no further than the Stetson hats. That's ALL Paulo knows, and he's quite proud of it. If you re-read his statement, it is easy to see that he doesn't understand the details. He thinks Stetson sponsored "Raiders of the Lost Ark"! Add to this the fact that the guy writing the article doesn't know what he's talking about either, and you've got a mess.

Well, in re-telling the tale, which is more glamourous...."I just made the materials" or "I made the 'hat"?

That's how I'd remember 26 year old information too! Let's face it, the original players are either retired or dead!

Regards! Michaelson

I think Todd has summed it up nicely.

Clearly Cury is confusing the licensed hats with the screen used hats, however if HJ used Cury felt at the time of Raiders then it could indeed be Cury felt in the film.

Puppetboy wrote:“HJ might have bought felt from Cury, who knows? The sell a lot of felt. There's no way for Paulo to know what a hatter does with the felt he buys.”

Exactly!

Did Stetson have the licensing agreement with Lucasfilm prior to the release of Raiders? If so then this could help explain Cury’s confusion. If Stetson began sourcing ROTLA hats from Cury before the release of the film, Cury could have assumed that it was their hat in the movie.

- Mac

I know Stetson had the licensing agreement prior to the release of Temple of Doom, but I've never seen a Lucasfilm licensed Raiders Stetson to date. I'm willing to bet THAT'S the hat he's thinking of, and as has been posted above, they refer to ALL the Indy movies as 'Raiders'.

Regards! Michaelson

I also don't think he sees the difference between Stetson and the film makers. They're all official people from America... how does he know. I'm sure the Stetson people impressed their importance upon him and probably exaggerated their connection to the film.

HJ had sourced their felt from a felter located in Portugal....or South America....he couldn't remember for sure which, but at the time of the phone calls (1985) they had stopped using that company as a supplier.

My money would be on Portugal. Just the shipping cost would make it a more viable supplier!! I saw nothing in my samples from Cury that approaches what I see in the Raiders felt. But, I can see a resemblence to the Portugal stock rabbit felt, much more so than what I got from Cury. Just imagine those early rabbit Optimos, which was a lightweight felt, and increase the weight by 30 grams and the resemblence is uncanny for those who owned those early Optimos before he changed to a beaver/nutria blend as his stock felt.

I favor neither the SA Cury, or the Portugal, as I don't really care, but the Portugal felt that I have held in hand and the Cury felt I have held in hand is what I base my opinon upon. But, it is just an opinion. I just can't see my Cury samples as being the Raiders felt, but I can certainly see the Portugal mid weight rabbit as "the original felt".

I think Cury enters into the equation with the Official hats offered later on. Fedora

It's impossible to draw conclusions. You know very well that felt is a fluid thing - constantly changing. How can you know what kind of felt Cury made 20 years ago? Especially comparing it to felt you've never actually seen? Cury makes all kinds of felt now. Most is likely custom order to manufacturer's specs.

Even with as much as I think I know about movie making and movie wardrobe, I am always surprised when I see a prop in the flesh since it NEVER looks the way it appears on screen. Let's not get carried away and overstate what we know about the Raider's hat felt. Your reproductions look right on to me, but they probably don't look like the real hat. None of us would probably LIKE the real hat if we had it. Same thing with the jacket. If I sent the REAL jacket to a customer, they'd send it back. It's too this - too that - doesn't drape right - the fact is I haven't seen the real thing. Film makes everything look better than it really is.

All we know is that Swales didn't know/couldn't remember/never even knew in the first place/didn't want to say where the felt came from. He never even said what kind of animal it came from. End of story. Am I right?

Paulo is mistaken about his factory's role in the movie. He didn't even own the business back then to know first-hand what happened. He made Stetsons. End of story.

It's impossible to draw conclusions. You know very well that felt is a fluid thing - constantly changing. How can you know what kind of felt Cury made 20 years ago? Especially comparing it to felt you've never actually seen? Cury makes all kinds of felt now. Most is likely custom order to manufacturer's specs.

Even with as much as I think I know about movie making and movie wardrobe, I am always surprised when I see a prop in the flesh since it NEVER looks the way it appears on screen. Your reproductions look right on to me, but they probably don't look like the real hat. None of us would probably LIKE the real hat if we had it. Same thing with the jacket. If I sent the REAL jacket to a customer, they'd send it back. It's too this - too that - doesn't drape right - the fact is I haven't seen the real thing. Film makes everything look better than it really is.

I thought I was clear, it was just MY OPINION, and did not even throw in the HUMBLE

I do agree felt can be flexible, or varied, but you generally see this in the felt industry when there is a change of hands, or owners. The Sovereign line of felt from Stetson is identical in feel and looks as it was 11 years ago. Generally, I would say the factories are consistent in the type of felt they make, UNLESS there is a change of owners. These older companies, like Cury and the Portugal company are basically family owned business's, and you don't see the change in these, as you would in others like Stetson, Resistol, Charley One Horse and others who have had just the name leased, or bought in order to make and sell hats under those monikers.

Let's not get carried away and overstate what we know about the Raider's hat felt.

Carried away? Far from it my friend. I have seen basically 3 types of felt, if I use the vast number of vintage hats I have worked on, and after seeing what Akubra, Cury, Portugal, Hatco, Biltmore, Winchester, Tonak, Yugoslavian, and Serratelli, and then add to that the major vintage manufacturers of Stetson, Dobbs, Knox, Cavanagh, and a plethora of other, less, well known brands. Out of this lot of vintage and modern felt, there seems to be basically 3 different sorts of rabbit/blended felt. Once you work with this stuff and see it for a few years, anyone would notice the 3 major kinds, with their own particular characteristics. And that is what I am going by. Now, these characteristics can be spotted from film, if the characteristics are ones that are visible to the eye. That is all that I was saying.

Now, if others can't pick this up, that is understandable. But, if I were a betting man, I bet I could show you a Portugal body, a Cury body and you could see the difference between the two. And if you saw these enough, over time you could pick out the Portugal body from a pile of mixed brands. And if you saw these felts on film, you could still pick them out. That was all that I was saying. I would also bet, that if someone sent me a HJ made prior to the current felt they are using, I could spot that HJ felt, right off the bat. It has particular characteristics that stand out, when compared to the current crop of HJs.

The truth of the matter is, Hatco MAY be the only company, other than DP that ever used the Cury felt, outside of the country of origin. I don't know this to be true, but I have heard that the S.A. felters are only used in cases of dire emergency, due to the very slow nature of these south of the equator companies in getting the product to you in a timely manner.(they have a completely different concept of time, as I learned when I was an Anthro major in college) I went through this as I was gearing up to start my own line of hats. I was sourcing an Argentinian felt, and my several thousand dollar order sat on the shipping room floor of this company for almost 6 months!!! Finally, the chap who had personally traveled down there to set all of this up, had to go back, just to get them to ship out his and my orders!! Now, the felt from this company, matched what I saw on the film, if you know what you are looking for, when you look. But, the logistics of getting orders in in a timely manner was impossible!! And while the felt from Argentina was very Raideresque in appearance, the dress bodies were too small!!! This prompted me to look elsewhere. Now, this Argentinian felt was almost identical to the Portugal rabbit bodies that I have seen. And, I found out later, that the two companies were linked in some manner. Not sure how, because the Portugal company is an ancient company that is a family run business.

I really do think that I can spot what sort felt was used. I think most folks can certainly tell the difference in felt between the Raiders fedora and TLC fedora, but I may be assuming too much here. I could not have done it 10 years ago, that is for sure and a fact. But, I have no problems these days.

I can see variations in my own felt, that comes from the same factory, made by the same workers, etc. But, from a macro level, you can't see the difference. Once you start looking at felt 12 to 16 hours a day, you start to notice stuff, over time. In cabinetmaking, we called it "having an eye". This phenonomen does exist, believe it or don't. There is variation in woods and to the neophyte, two different red oaks that came from different trees do not look the same. To me, I could call it red oak, white oak, alder, birch, etc, right off the bat. I am using that same "eye" here. And it is fine to question my "eye", but you can't question the 3 major varieties of rabbit felt. They exist. Fedora

All I know is that if I can't tell the difference between Naugahyde and leather on film, then I doubt it's possible to tell what part of the world a piece of felt was made in, either. When cardboard can look like bricks and styrofoam can look like rocks and silver spray paint can pass for steel - you get my point.

Fedora, there is "an eye" to about everything if you've been working in it long enough. And with the amount of hats you've produced to date (including the pre-AB rebuilds I've sent your way) I have no doubt that you've developed an eye for the nuances of hat felts. I once worked in a frame shop and I used to win countless arguments with my non-framing friends all the time when I could look at a picture from a healthy distance and tell you the matte was off center by 1/16 of an inch. That eye came from framing pictures almost every day for five years!

All I know is that if I can't tell the difference between Naugahyde and leather on film, then I doubt it's possible to tell what part of the world a piece of felt was made in, either. When cardboard can look like bricks and styrofoam can look like rocks and silver spray paint can pass for steel - you get my point.

I know what you mean. It is hard to tell from just pics and film. But you can watch the way a felt moves and learn alot about that characteristic. And in some of the close ups of the Raiders fedora, you can really see details of the felt. And when you actually see a felt like it, in your hands, you know it. Felt is strange material, but each has a sort of footprint to me. And some of those footprints actually can be seen in pics. When I saw my first late 80's HJ, my first thought was, wow, looks just like TLC felt. I mean, it was so obvious! It even creased like the film hat, due to the degree of stiffener being used.

Speaking of HJ, the felt they are using now is very similiar to the Raiders felt, IMO. It may not be from the same felt producer, but it is the same type of rabbit felt-if not brothers, then cousins for sure.

In regards to Cury, back when I first contacted them, I was under the impression that their mainstay felt was actually a fur/wool blend, but they also offered rabbit fur felt. I think they must have diversified recently?

I just know that the samples of the rabbit that I got from them was as close to the Raiders felt as the Raiders felt compared to TLC felt. It was nothing like what I see on screen.

I kinda think that the Raiders felt was from Portugal, but that is only an opinon. But it is based upon what I have seen with my limited experience. I am sure there were more felt producers in the time of Raiders, and the source for this felt may have went belly up, like the feltmakers in South Africa, where Milan used to buy his dress bodies. The African feltmaker closed the factory due to lack of hat sales, and Milan went with the Portugal felt thereafter. So, HJ may have used somone like this. But from what I have seen out of Cury, I would never use their stock. Unless they have changed. Also as I mentioned, it has been hard in the past to depend upon the South Americans if you need a steady and timely supply of felt. There has always been a flourishing felt trade down there, but I think they live on different clocks than the other parts of the world. A few years ago, they were actually getting represenatives in the USA to help spread their products here. But, getting up with these folks and having calls returned was impossible. I know, because I tried it!! This wasn't Cury though, but another company from down there. Fedora