Club Obi Wan

I have been recently accused of making assumptions and drawing concusions while not knowing the facts.

Well, as stated, these conclusions I made for myself. I just made them known to you guys here, because this is a place for discussion.

Discussion, dialogue and civilized behavior.

Some people are inclined to believe that Deb Nadoolman designed the IJ jacket, while my logical conclusion (opinion) is that she gave the idea and some other hands took the pencil and the paper and made the design from which they drew the patterns.

IMHO, Nadoolman job was not to "design" but to "choose" the right outfit based on her knowledge of the clothes they used to wear during the period that the film shows us.

If she was a designer, she would probably have a better work at the fashion industry.... That's another assumption, of course.

But let's accept as fact that she did design the jacket and put her signature on the design.

AND NOW MY QUESTION

Then, why did she limit herself to design the jacket ONLY and not the shirt or the pants or the hat and boots and Marion's dress and the other actors outfits and whatever have you??

Why such obsession with the jacket? The jacket she designed by herself but she doesn't remember the details about it?

PLATON, where did you get the idea she only designed the jacket?

She designed the entire costume from hat to boots, and had a hand in selecting some of the items originally offered to Ford for use (according to two different personal interviews with her by MK and Indiana John.) The jacket was just one item of many, but the original costume design was hers in it's entireity.

Based on her original drawings, you're absolutely correct regarding her 'roughing out' of the costume design, then having others flesh in the nitty gritty details. The jacket in her original drawings was a cuffed A-2 style flight jacket.

Regards! Michaelson

Dear Michaelson,

How did she designed the whole costume?
Did she design the shirt that Andreas Dometakis designed?
Did she design the hat that Herbert Johnson designed?
Did she design the boots that Alden makes and Ford chose?
Did she design the whip that David Morgan made?
Did she design the army webbelt?
Did she design the holster?

What are we left with? the pants?
Yeah, did she design the officer pinks? Who was the person who said "Let's add pleats to the officer pinks to make it look civil" I don't recall.

With all due respect I think, that she only put together the costume. That's as good as "designed it"
But she didn't actually design the clothes that it is consisted of.

I don't think we have the same understanding of the verb "to design"

You're right, we're not on the same page at all, PLATON.

A designer creates the specifications for a contracted item. She stated leather jacket, officer style pants, adventurer styled shirt, high top work styled boots, a 30's styled fedora, and gunbelt and holster. The whip and bag were added in further discussions. THAT'S what a designer does. She then when to the drawing board and created sketches for Lucas based on those discussions to see if that was what he had in mind.

Once approved she then went to contractors with her preliminary drawings of what she had in mind, and they fleshed out what they thought she wanted. After she had all the components together based on what she thought Lucas wanted, she presented them to Lucas for sign off. That done, she also signed off on the final design, and the production of those items began in ernest.

Regards! Michaelson

This is a point that a lot of people fail to realize. Being a filmmaker, I have seen how much costume designers work. They are in charge of that department and when it comes to the hero costume they live it. Nadoolman was very specific as far as I can tell as to what she wanted the costume makers to produce. For anyone to claim that they designed the costume peice exclusively is far out there. Nadoolman specified items to costume makers, if she saw something she didn't like, she would have them change it until it was right for what SHE wanted. That's how it works. Same thing for the jacket and everything else.

Thanks Josh. That's absolutely true. They don't just take on the job then 'toss it over the fense' for someone to finish.

Regards! Michaelson

Yes indeed, I had to chim in and agree with you on this one. It's one of my big points I have always tried to make. Mainly with the jacket, so many people claim that Peter desighned the jacket by himself. I find that completely impossible. As far as I am concerned Nadoolman designed every part of the gear then contractors made the items as she wanted them. Now disclaimer time, I am not bashing Peter by saying that, lol.

I also have to add this little tid bit. We all have to remember that this film was made like 20 some years ago. These people have worked on more than one film since that time, lol. It no wonder some of them can't remember little details of this or that. I am sure to many of them it was just another cool show to work on.

Here official title is Costume Design, which I take as designer of all the costumes worn. This doesn't necessarily mean she herself designed all of them as she had a staff working for and with her. She would then have to ok or make changes to those designs submitted to her by her staff, but she being in charge, would have the ultimate say in the final designs to present to the director. She was in charge of costume design but she did not physically do all of it herself and from what I understand of the movie business would have worked with any one contractor to make the necessary changes she would like before their product is chosen. She, still being in charge of whatever they produce.
Now, I'm not saying that their expertise or imput would have been ignored but in the end, she would have been the one with the final say as Costume Designer and any contractor would have been working from her pre-chosen designs. Also, not all of the items would have to be made, case in point, the Aldens, which were made in the 30's, to my understanding. Of course they would have picked as many period items as they could off the rack at Bermans and Nathans to rent as it would cut down on their production costs and the time to make them all.

Digging For The Truth: The Lost Episode



...well, not really! But, could anything be MORE important than discovering some ancient ruins?

Could also be the reason Josh left The History Channel and went to Discovery. Too dangerous an assignment!

Regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:

Michaelson wrote:Could also be the reason Josh left The History Channel and went to Discovery. Too dangerous an assignment!

Regards! Michaelson

You said it! I'm still cleaning blood off of my office chari from those Hovito's darts they got me with over the weekend!

Thanks for having the stones to present the truth (at least as it stands now from the actual data collected by yourself and the like). You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. Cheers

_ wrote:

Rundquist wrote: Thanks for having the stones to present the truth (at least as it stands now from the actual data collected by yourself and the like). You gotta break a few egg to make an omelet. Cheers

As always - much appreciated my friend. Any Lee sightings recently? I had sent some PM's awhile back but had not received replies. Hope all is well...

You know, surprising as it may seem (considering who he is), I don’t think that he comes around here much anymore (if at all). I was actually going to call him to tell him that his name had been thrown around here lately. I’m sure that he’d get a kick out of it. If you had the time, I’m sure that he’d like hearing from you directly. Cheers

Lee called me a month ago to tell me he was reading the fedora section, but his time is really not his own much due to playing road warrior.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Lee called me a month ago to tell me he was reading the fedora section, but his time is really not his own much due to playing road warrior.

Regards! Michaelson

I think that the hat is the only piece of gear that Lee is officially still selling at the moment.

In my understanding Peter did the final design and the patterns for the jacket.
I imagine Nadoolman just said she wanted a short flight- jacket like leather jacket, but she didn´t want to use something real existing like the A-2 or G-8 jacket. An individual jacket that only Indy wears would be more recognisable as HIS jacket.
So she had Peter made the final design after her ideas and specs. I don´t believe that Nadoolman had the time to create and design a whole new jacket. And there´s no scetch of Indy wearing the jacket he finaly wears in Raiders.

Just a thought. I may be wrong on that one.

Peter may have given insight or even come up with a couple of the design elements based on some of the elements he would incorporate into some of his jackets, but it all would have to have been from basic design patterns or ideas that Nadoolman had already done or at least conceived. Even if Peter did some of the design it would have been with her ok and would have had to pass her approval before being submitted for possible use in the film.

I'm not saying Peter didn't help in some of the design, but I don't know, I wasn't there. But overall it was all under Nadoolman's control as Costume Designer. She hires a company and says "Here's what I want, now give it to me". Some may say , "Well, we can do this here or add this here", but in the end she would give the ok to do that.

Last Crusader wrote:In my understanding Peter did the final design and the patterns for the jacket.
I imagine Nadoolman just said she wanted a short flight- jacket like leather jacket, but she didn´t want to use something real existing like the A-2 or G-8 jacket. An individual jacket that only Indy wears would be more recognisable as HIS jacket.
So she had Peter made the final design after her ideas and specs. I don´t believe that Nadoolman had the time to create and design a whole new jacket. And there´s no scetch of Indy wearing the jacket he finaly wears in Raiders.

Just a thought. I may be wrong on that one.

You have to read some of the recent posts. Noodleman had finished prototypes (that included everything that constitutes an Indiana Jones jacket) made by other companies before Peter and Co. were even brought on board. Cheers

It seems across the board that if a member was here in July 2002 and previous to that(and has paid attention) that none of this is news. Nothing against the newer members but people, read the archives, here and at Indyfan. It's just the way it is.

_, keep fighting the good fight. Some of us appreciate it.

Kittlemeier wrote:It seems across the board that if a member was here in July 2002 and previous to that(and has paid attention) that none of this is news. Nothing against the newer members but people, read the archives, here and at Indyfan. It's just the way it is. ](*,)

_, keep fighting the good fight. Some of us appreciate it.

####, I'm new. I understand it fine. The costume designer designs the costume. Someone then makes up the design. Surely this isn't difficult to follow.

Some might argue that it doesn't matter anyway. What hope is there for peace in the Middle East when a jacket seems to arouse fear, anger and hatred so readily.

Cheers - CM

CM wrote: What hope is there for peace in the Middle East when a jacket seems to arouse fear, anger and hatred so readily.

Cheers - CM

You're right...you DO understand perfectly!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Although I have been following this string of threads as of late, I have had nothing to add thus far, however, I DO have a question..a sort of 'Chicken and the Egg' question.

It was my understanding that the Indy Hero Costume was HEAVILY based on the Steranko (sp?) sketches...was Deborah's costume design based on the sketches, or were the sketches based on her designs?

not stirring the pot...am legitimately curious.

"May I confirm that it was my company which made the jackets for Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones in the Raiders films. I still have the original patterns and specifications which date back to 1980. I was originally commissioned by Bermans and Nathan Costumiers to make the jacket which was one of my designs dramatically altered to fit the requirements of the film's designer and of course Mr. Harrison Ford himself. Over the three Raiders films I made a total of 48 jackets covering the stunt men, stand-ins and Harrison Ford, for whom we had made jackets before. Lucasfilms have licenced companies to make copies of the jacket but they are only poor imitations as I have always kept the original design. I can supply to you an original specification duplicate of the exact jacket worn by Harrison Ford." -Peter Botwright

So he still has the original patterns? How could this possibly be?
He says he received requirements from DN. He says that he altered an existing design of his. Could this be his A2 design from Hanover Street?
One thing's for sure...the water is pretty murky there. I'm going with _ on this one. As goofy as DN is, I just can't imagine she would give too much creative responsibility away to others. ESPECIALLY WHEN SHE'S ON A TIGHT BUDGET.

I love the way Peter says the other company's jackets are "poor" imitations whilst he still has the "original patterns" from 1980. I also love the bit about it being an "exact duplicate" to that worn by Harrison Ford.

Regards - CM

So, Deb Nadoolman got a paper and designed a rough design of how the costume should look like.

Then her assistants, like hound dogs, went out and brought her products from the market for her approval.

She also went to see suppliers herself. I recall her saying that they went to Herbert Johnson shop in London.

So it's a kind of "show me what you've got, I 'll tell you what I want" type of deal.

When she contacted the jacket suppliers she told them, "send me whatever you have that could pass for a 30's jacket"

So the jacket suppliers sent what they had, but she wasn't happy with anything, so that was the point that we pass to phase B of the costume designing process. That is

"if you don't find something in the market that is fit for the job, make it yourself"

So then, she contacted Berman and told him "we got to make this jacket from scratch". Berman rang Peter. Deb told Peter how she wanted the jacket to be and Peter made it.

What I am trying to say is, you cannot design the SPECS of a jacket unless you are a jacket designer. Nadoolman described to Peter how she wanted the jacket to be (according to the rough design on her mind and paper) and Peter designed the specs of the jacket and made the patterns.

In other words, I don't think Nadoolman said to Peter. "Oh no, Peter dear don't make the patch pocket 7x6 inches, I want it 7.5x6.5in, or make the width of the storm flap 1.5in, and the pocket should be 2 in away from the storm flap and 3 in from hem and the collar stand should be 1 inch and the depth of the action pleat 1.5inch...

I think it is ridiculus to think that she gave him exact specs.

What do you think?

So then, she contacted Berman and told him "we got to make this jacket from scratch". Berman rang Peter. Deb told Peter how she wanted the jacket to be and Peter made it.

Not quite... _ said:

IMO - This makes it even clearer to me - given Peter's penchant for copying jackets and taking credit for all the work - that he had finished tangible samples/examples given to him with alteration notes from Deb... If it is not what happened, I'd love to hear a denial...

I missed that.

I think she would have been even more precise and much less polite... I also love they way you just make this stuff up. Have you ever talked to somebody who does this for a living? I have... We have a few film makers here as members who are confirming what we're saying holds water...

With the hero costume, Deb would have been the hand's-on driver with her assistants in tow trying to keep up with her. With the jacket - arguably the most important piece of wardrobe, there were asthetic as well as functional issues. In the sessions with Western Costume, she recollects detailed issues with configuration and design of the vents, pleats and side straps, because they needed to flow and stay out of the way of the whip, whip holder, holster, and bag/bag strap...

BTW - Just found out last night a buddy of mine is on for set design for Indy IV. If MK cannot find room for me in his suitcase, I may just line up a spot swinging a hammer making sets... I'd burn a week or so of vacation for a chance to say I was there...

Much appreciated.

With the hero costume, Deb would have been the hand's-on driver with her assistants in tow trying to keep up with her. With the jacket - arguably the most important piece of wardrobe, there were asthetic as well as functional issues. In the sessions with Western Costume, she recollects detailed issues with configuration and design of the vents, pleats and side straps, because they needed to flow and stay out of the way of the whip, whip holder, holster, and bag/bag strap...

I recall reading a very similar quote a long time ago about the vents, straps, etc., being made specifically to have more mobility and easier access to the holster, bag and especially the whip. All of this was carefully thought out as it should have been.

Platon, you have to understand that in going to fashion design school, they teach you how to make all of these items from scratch. Nadoolman was more than capable of doing the jackets herself but she didn't have the time to sit around and make 12 jackets on top of the 200+ Arab costumes and all the other hero costumes that had to be designed and made from scratch. This is why she hired professional costumers to do the leg work for her.
All of the Indy costumes, without a doubt, would have been thoroughly researched and designed to fit the specific needs of the character and elements he is in. Sure, the loose scetches you see on the dvd are most likely the first sets of character sketches to get the overall feel, color and design of the costumes, what are called preliminaries. They would then refine these after the final proofs are chosen. You can't really wing it when you're playing with someone elses money and on a tight deadline schedule. You plan it all out first so that hopefully there are no mistakes, as almost happened with the Willie Scott, Club Obi Wan dress.

The Steranko illustrations were done entirely by Steranko based on the basic elements of the costume given to him by Spielberg and Lucas. That was Steranko's take on what he told them. Remember, the reason Steranko was hired was the same reason Ralph McQuarrie was hired for Star Wars, to do preliminary shetches to capturte their vision to sell the film to the studios. They needed something concrete the executives could look at besides a script in an attempt to sell the movie to them.

The costume designed by Nadoolman was similar, only because it based on the same basic elements. I don't think her designs were based so much on the Steranko stuff as much as the info given to her by Spielberg and Lucas. It was really simple.

Lucas on the character of Indy from the very first meeting with Spielberg and Kasdan:

"The image of him which is the strongest image is the "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" outfit, which is the khaki pants, he's got the leather jacket, that sort of felt hat, and the pistol and holster with a WW1 sort of flap over it. - The other thing we've added to him, which may be fun, is a bull whip. - You can swing over things, you can... there are so many things you can do with it. I thought he carried it rolled up. It's like a Samuri sword. He carries it back there and you don't even notice it. The way it's not in the way or anything. It's just there whenever he wants it."

You see, the entire design was basically there from the beginning. This is the info that would have been given to Nadoolman. I recall, and I could be wrong, that she first tried several off the rack styles of jackets which were too restricting, causing her to switch the design and add the side vents, pleats, straps, etc.

Which, after all this discussion to this point, is pretty much what I said in a nutshell in my second post.

Funny how after all these years, my answers just keep getting more and more condensed.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Which, after all this discussion to this point, is pretty much what I said in a nutshell in my second post.

Funny how after all these years, my answers just keep getting more and more condensed.

Regards! Michaelson

Well, buddy, the way these threads are developing lately, a bit of abridgement is a welcome change!

Just when I thought there was nothing more to pick apart, now history itself is under debate. Though I understand the compulsion to state the truth, the point of it all may be lost on the few.

One thing I recently read was that HF was cast with only 4 weeks to principal photography and that the entire costume was made for Selleck, who thought he actually had the part until the last minute when he was yanked. In walks Ford who steps into the costume.

I'd like to know if they simply had to adjust some things to tailor it more for HF or did they go a whole new route and start a few things from scratch? I imagine all they had to do was nip and tuck a few things.


It's possible that the b/w photo session we see of Ford with longer hair and sideburns is a test for him in the costume the first time. This may have been the point where he changed the hiking boots for the Aldens. Of course, that's just a theory, but certainly plausible.

Any firsthand tellings of the above mentioned?

May I confirm that it was my company which made the jackets for Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones in the Raiders films. I still have the original patterns and specifications which date back to 1980. I was originally commissioned by Bermans and Nathan Costumiers to make the jacket which was one of my designs dramatically altered to fit the requirements of the film's designer and of course Mr. Harrison Ford himself. Over the three Raiders films I made a total of 48 jackets covering the stunt men, stand-ins and Harrison Ford, for whom we had made jackets before. Lucasfilms have licenced companies to make copies of the jacket but they are only poor imitations as I have always kept the original design. I can supply to you an original specification duplicate of the exact jacket worn by Harrison Ford." -Peter Botwright

Simply put - This is why I am soooo glad that _ is putting together a thorough/detailed "accurate" account of the Indy jacket so that the truth may finally come out after all this time once and for all.

_ - I just want to say "thank you" for continuing to write on here and sharing all of your well-researched material with us. You are very respected and everyone here at COW is in your debt my friend! Can't wait to see the posted information when you're all done!
High Regards,
Captain D

Captain D wrote: Simply put - This is why I am soooo glad that _ is putting together a thorough/detailed "accurate" account of the Indy jacket so that the truth may finally come out after all this time once and for all.

Oh, sorry. Something about the "once and for all" just hit my funny bone.

Fast forward to CyberCOW in the year 2035: (Cue Scooby Doo effect)

Captian D: "I remember all those years ago when a guy named _ put all sorts of information together and we finally got this jacket stuff figured out once and for all."

IndyNewbie3000: "Oh, but that's all hearsay. There's no real proof any of that is true. I mean all the people who worked on that, what did they call them then, films? Anyway, those guys are either long dead or psycho in the nursing home. There's no way to prove the jacket was made or designed by any of those people. I still say that the original jacket was a vinyl jacket closely resembling what Michael Jackson wore during the "Beat It" movie. It's so obvious. How can you not see it?"

Michaelson (After his second successful cyber organ replacement and a new cybernetic torso) : "Funny how after all these years, my answers just keep falling on deaf ears. After a while, what's the point? Regards! Michaelson"

bink: "What? WHAT?! Nurse! Where's my meds? NURSE!!!!"

Hey Rick...You need to up your dosage

binkmeisterRick wrote:

Captain D wrote: Simply put - This is why I am soooo glad that _ is putting together a thorough/detailed "accurate" account of the Indy jacket so that the truth may finally come out after all this time once and for all.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh, sorry. Something about the "once and for all" just hit my funny bone.

Fast forward to CyberCOW in the year 2035: (Cue Scooby Doo effect)

Captian D: "I remember all those years ago when a guy named _ put all sorts of information together and we finally got this jacket stuff figured out once and for all."

IndyNewbie3000: "Oh, but that's all hearsay. There's no real proof any of that is true. I mean all the people who worked on that, what did they call them then, films? Anyway, those guys are either long dead or psycho in the nursing home. There's no way to prove the jacket was made or designed by any of those people. I still say that the original jacket was a vinyl jacket closely resembling what Michael Jackson wore during the "Beat It" movie. It's so obvious. How can you not see it?"

Michaelson (After his second successful cyber organ replacement and a new cybernetic torso) : "Funny how after all these years, my answers just keep falling on deaf ears. After a while, what's the point? :lol: :wink: Regards! Michaelson"

bink: "What? WHAT?! Nurse! Where's my meds? NURSE!!!!"

The Year: 3000. Wested Leather Inc is proud to be the genuine home of the old time classic film, Raiders of the Lost Ark. Directed and written by Wested founder Peter, the movie showcased his genius for design in all media. The original movie script is still in storage at Wested headquartes resting beside the original patterns for the famous A2 jacket, created by Peter for brave American pilots early in the 20th century...

The Year 3000... and Michaelson will STILL be banging his head against a wall. Even if it is encased in titanium by then.

Errr, excuse me...was somebody talking to me?

Regards! Michaelson

Will it make me glow in the dark?

SIGN ME UP!!!

Regards! Michaelson

Hey, look! My high school reunion photo!

okay, okay, Bink...I "should" have said...help to clarify, lol. The jacket will always be a mystery in a sense to some folks I suppose...

binkmeisterRick wrote:bink: "What? WHAT?! Nurse! Where's my meds? NURSE!!!!"

Yes Bink, we all know you've got a thing for pretty nurses...


Canyon (after being woken up from being Cyrongenically frozen) "What's this? Raiders avaible in Holographic 3D?!? Oh my heart..."