Club Obi Wan

I've been studying the Flightsuits jacket on the Gear Section page and am struck by how much better it looks than the Wested version next to it. The pockets seem especially good. My question is do the specs vary from year to year? The reason I ask this is that I've seen other photos of Flightsuit jackets that don't look quite as good. Pocket size and flap scalloping seem to vary.

Would anyone who knows care to comment.

PS - I'm familiar with the story behind the production of the jacket, so I don't need any info about history, etc.

As far as I know of, other than in the very very beginning, there have been no changes to the pattern. I now own three Expeditions, from different years, I can't really see any differences. Now, back in the day they used to offer more custom options in terms of sizing and pattern. However, that has slacked off as I understand it. So, as far as I know the main pattern has stayed the same. Pictures can very, some of which may been from the early stages of protyping, in terms of the Flightsuits.com pic. The man to really talk to is _.

In terms of quality, they are the best, tough as nails. Wested makes a great jacket, don't get me wrong, now more than ever. However, if you want the top of the line in quality and accuracy, the Expedition is the way to go.

Cool. Would you mind telling me the measurements of your cargo pockets? From top of flap to bottom of pocket and its width.

Cheers - CM

Over the last 6 month I have gotten 3 new Expeditions (made from different leathers). They are all identical in detailing. However, they all exhibit different characteristics, mainly because of the leathers. I was not going to post them up (mainly because no one seems to be interested), but I probably will now at some point next week. Cheers

Rundquist wrote:I was not going to post them up (mainly because no one seems to be interested),.....

Adam, WHERE in the world did you EVER get an idea like that?

;0

Post them, man!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Yeah Rund, I'd love to see some pics of your new G&Bs.
'Blues

Seen 'em. They're AWESOME! Let's see 'em again! Man, that's one thing I'll miss about L.A. Seeing Adam's new jackets in person!

Regards, Dr. J

Rundquist: It would be great to see some pics... I am curious if the pocket flaps on your current jackets are as nicely scalloped as the Expedition in russet goat that you had... Those pocket flaps were outstanding.

Here's a quick pic of my three, from left to right: lambskin, distressed goatskin, mint goatskin.

Wow. I like those pockets. Nice shape. Are they smaller than the Wested jacket, say on a standard 40reg?

Looks to me as though they have the collar meeting the storm flap EXACTLY as it was in the movie. FS is the only company that does this, even though the other vendors have been shown more than once that this is how it looked in the movie.

Can anyone post a closer pic of the collar/storm flap, please?

Rundquist wrote:Over the last 6 month I have gotten 3 new Expeditions (made from different leathers). They are all identical in detailing. However, they all exhibit different characteristics, mainly because of the leathers. I was not going to post them up (mainly because no one seems to be interested), but I probably will now at some point next week. Cheers

Hi Rundquist, does this mean G&B are offering custom work again?

Well, in terms of wested, wested pockets as well as overall pattern has jumped around so much over the years it's hard to say. The FS is a copy of the real deal, screen used, Raiders jacket. In my opinion the best you can get. I will post more pics later. Most Wested pockets I have seen have tended to be too big on their standard pattern. I have never done much custom work with Westede cause most likely it won't happen.

Here are some views of the collar. First up is a zipped up view of the lambskin:



Next is an unzipped view of my distressed goatskin:

Since Rund and Bogie are in this thread, I have a question about the G&B pleated lining. I understand they incorporated their G-1 pleated lining into the Expedition, to aid in the free movement of the jacket.
Now, my newer G&B(Nov 06) has the pleated lining, but it is sewn closed about 3/4 of the way up on each side. The top 1/4 of the pleat is still open.

Was this always the case, or is that something new? The two older G&Bs I had in my posession had the pleats open the whole way, and it caused the lining to sag really bad,....the lining would show from under the zipper, especially on the inside pocket side, due to the weight of the pocket facing.

Can you guys shed a little input on this? If anything, I think the fact that the pleated lining in my Expo is sewn shut, is a plus on the Expedition design, since the jacket doesn't really NEED a pleated liner, due to the shallow pleats,...as opposed to a G-1.

'Blues

That is odd indeed. I just check my jackets, all three of my Expeditions are the pleat sewn closed what I would is half way. Now here's the kicker, my G&B G-1, the pleats are left open all the way. I am thinking it is half closed on the Expedition to prevent that lining from saggin down.

Rundquist: O yes, we want to see the pics!

Bogie: Thanks for posting your jackets! I totally agree with you, my friend, the Expo is tough as nails. Accuracy and durability are second to none in my opinion as well. I've got one Expo, but if I could afford another one right now I'd do it again in a heartbeat!

Here are my three Wested's for comparison. Note the differences in the pockets as the patterns changed.

That's interesting regarding the liner pleats. Wonder what Runds old jackets were like?

Bogie, your dark lambskin G&B looks fantastic. I din't know you could distress them like that. I thought the color was dyed right through to the under layer? There is a small scratch on mine, but the under layer looks dark like the surface. If I could do that, I would go to work on it asap. The darn thing looks to dressy as is, lol.
'Blues

agent5 wrote

FS is the only company that does this, even though the other vendors have been shown more than once that this is how it looked in the movie.

Nope. Todd does it too.

..well, at least his prototype does.


Regards! Michaelson

Since these were designed from the actual screen-used jackets, do they have the 80's snugger fit at the waist, or the contemporary fit like current Westeds?

~Jace

So does the term "fitted" mean that it's closer to the 80's type fit? It's not crystal clear in the description. The good thing is they have a full refund return policy, but i'd still rather know for sure before ordering. That would save me the cost of shipping both ways when it doesn't fit as expected...

~Jace

This is perfection. Exactly how the Raiders collar/storm flap meet on the main hero jacket in the film.
Below are two separate hero jackets, both with the same collar/storm flap configuration. Both collars end at the midway point of the storm flap. Also notice in the top pic (the main hero jacket) how the end of the storm flap is nice and ROUNDED. I can't get any jacket with this feature. Most are squared off edges.




I hope that if any other vendors are reading this thread they will plainly see that the pic above clearly shows exactly where the collar is supposed to meet the storm flap on the "Raiders" jacket, in the middle of the storm flap. This was obviously done on the original jackets so I imagine it easily could and very well should be made standard to any Raiders jacket from any vendor.

On the flipside, I see one of your collar/storm flap configurations is different. I thought FS did them identical each time?

Thanks for posting.

Flightsuits does not do custom work. Repeat, Flightsuits does not do custom work. They aren't equipped to deal with all the returns that this entails. What they end up with is a huge clearance rack full of jackets. I’ll try to have pics put up later. Cheers

PLATON wrote:agent5 wrote

FS is the only company that does this, even though the other vendors have been shown more than once that this is how it looked in the movie.

Nope. Todd does it too.

Perhaps...but Todd is just making another copy of many other copies. The Expedition is as an exact copy of a screen used as you can get.

In reply to the sizing issue, from what I have seen on the expedition, the size can be very fitted if you order the right size. I see so many people in the world buying jackets way too big for them. You should use the FS measuring chart and determine whether you need a short or long length size. This is general information I know but it's worth stressing. If you want it to look well fitted, find the best chest size with the best sleeve length. Also, having your measurements taken by a tailor then send those off to FS asking them what size would be good for you. Make sure you let them know you want a very fitted 1930's look. Then compare what info they send you to your own studies of the FS measurement chart.

Rundquist wrote:Flightsuits does not do custom work. Repeat, Flightsuits does not do custom work. They aren't equipped to deal with all the returns that this entails. What they end up with is a huge clearance rack full of jackets. I’ll try to have pics put up later. Cheers

I've dealt with G&B on several occasions and I know they don't do custom work like they used to. But because in you're previous post you said you had just received three new Expeditions made of different leathers, I thought maybe they had changed their policy. Of course, you may have also purchased second-hand Expeditions elsewhere. Your post pique my curiousity.

My own experience with G & B is that they run big. I have a mint condition 42R goat that is just too big in the waist and from under the armpits on down so I dont even wear it (I should probably put it up for sale on COW). But the size 40R had sleeves too short (I do not take a Long size either). Most frustrating. But I will say this...its likely (one of) the toughest goat jackets out there and absolutely beautifully made. If could just ghet a size 40R jacket with 42R-length sleeves!

Nice pics... and convincing points made. The consistency is obvious on those examples. My next jacket may be a Gibson Barnes. But the price Ouch!!

raider 57

Perhaps...but Todd is just making another copy of many other copies. The Expedition is as an exact copy of a screen used as you can get.

todd is making a copy of the hero jacket that he sees on screen and has used an expedition for a road map. there are alot of little nitpicky things that many of us see, many of us request on our order, only to find out that it cannot be done.....whether its a wested custom tailored job with some requests missed or the refusal of g&b to do custom jobs.

the expedition is an exact copy of a stunt jacket, not the hero jacket. some of the differences that i notice are the pull strap hardware/orientation, the attatchment of the strap to the jacket, and the zipper does not go all the way to the bottom of the jacket.

now, if we're all so kooky to pic up on things like the above (and i know we are because thats where i got the info from).....why are we so adament in saying that the expedition IS the raiders jacket? if we are into the accuracey of things, then it would be more accurate to say that the expedition is THE raiders STUNT jacket. now that is far from a bad thing and i thank the forefathers of indygear who had the perseverance to bring this jacket offering to life but i hope that it is not being misconstrued that this jacket came off harry's back.......but it probably came off terry leonard's back

I don't beleive is that whole Hero jacket/ Stunt jacket. I beleive there were jackets made for Ford and jackets made for the stuntmen but from the same pattern. I don't see any production need for the pattern to be change. On the other hand does it really matter, the Expedition is a copy, quite an exact copy of a screen used Raiders jacket. The only thing I can agree with about the Terry Leonard jacket is that, in terms of the jackets he may have used for the truck chase scene. I feel that those were made a tiny but big for him to allow for the pading. I have heard people talking about how there are no action pleats on the jacket. I do not agree with that at all. I have tested this idea with my Expeditions. I think the the padding has stretched the side out and that the side straps are lose. This giving the effect that the pleat is not there. The is no reason to have another pattern with now action pleats for a stunt jacket. That's where the pleats would be useful. The only thing I can ever see being different is maybe they added gussets to Terry's jacket but that is a simple thing. Like I have said before, the Expedition is based on real hard evidence. All the other jackets out there are based on what people are seeing on a screen. Until someone can get access to a Raiders jacket, Ford actualy wore and copy it. There will be nothing more authentic than the expedition in my opinion. I myself have done the screen study. I have the making of raiders on my computer and am studying shots right now in adobe premiere. It's hard to tell much from the 16mm footage. One thing I can tell is that the pockets on Terry's jacket match the expedition. I think a big reason people keep the expedition issue out of sight is because it always turns into a debate. Don't get me wrong though, I support the expedition, but don't think I am not tempted by other jackets. I stand by the facts of the expedition.

agent5 wrote: Also notice in the top pic (the main hero jacket) how the end of the storm flap is nice and ROUNDED. I can't get any jacket with this feature. Most are squared off edges.

This is a Wested I got a long time ago. Close to nine years. Though it's never been broken-in. This is back when they lined the inside of the collar with cotton/satin. It's a bad pic with flash, but shows the rounded storm flap. It's nothing I asked for. I guess it just depended on who was making the jacket?

My Wested has the same rounded collar but the collar does not go until the middle of the storm flap.

I got it early in 2006.

Sure, they are different depending on which Wested employee makes them. My other Wested has a completely different pocket flap stitching.

My opinion is that the most accurate jacket to date is Todd's.
But those who wear expedition glasses fail to see it.

Todd has used the G&B patterns (i.e. the screen used jacket) and corrected the minor details such as pocket flap scallopness, stitching and side strap hardware, pocket placement, and zipper going all the way to the bottom.

But that's my personal opinion, regardless that it is backed by facts.
I don't expect anyone to accept it.

There are well documented cases of stunt vs. hero props, take the Stormtrooper helmets as one example.

Another is the MI uniforms for Starship Troopers, there are hero and stunt versions out there too. Heroes for the principals and stunts for background extras, there is no need to fully detail the ones for the extras as the just don't get seen.

I've personally inspected the sonic screwdriver from the new Doctor Who tv series, there is a hero and at least one stunt, the stunt has less function ie it doesn't open up.

Do they do this for regular clothing? Stuff that doesn't have hard parts? That's the debate isn't it?

_, I agree with everything you say except that the fact that Ford's jacket was auctioned for $65,000 is not material to laugh with.

The movie makers, when they were filming the movie they didn't know they were creating a legend...

_ wrote: Personally, I am convinced that anybody here can find posts where I have done it too… Mea culpa…

No...honestly, I can't think of a time that that ever occurred with you, old friend. Nope...

Regards! Michaelson

Anyone who knows the Raiders jacket can see the differences in some of the cosmetics of the jackets very easily. I think what people are getting at here is that these jackets were indeed made specifically with the stunts in mind, hence, a stunt jacket. Peter had stated that a larger yoke was for better ease of movement and that a much smaller yoke (on the hero jackets) would restrict that movement, especially upper arm movement. This is what the truck stunt required so Occum's razor once again tells me that this had to be specifically asked for, unless this was a prototype that was used out of the batch of ordered jackets because it had a larger yoke.
Also notice the side vents are closed about 2 inches or so from the bottom of the jacket but the side construction looks different than the hero jacket.
Then the pockets do look rather small. Illusion? I'll even buy that. But if those are the correct sized pockets and there is no illusion present, than those are not the FS pockets.

I value anyones opinion as well as my own, especially _ who knows more about the jackets than anyone I can think of. I simply disagree that there were no stunt jackets. I think that these were made specifically with the stunt work in mind since this was a big stunt movie. To me it makes perfect sense. I also agree that it was most likely the same company who made all the jackets even though we toyed with the possibility that USWings could have been in the mix too. I sort of think the TL jacket looks like a Wings, but that's just a matter of opinion.

While I'm not sure you could classify them as 'stunt jackets' I think that's a term that we applied here for them. Cuz it's more than obvious the jacket in the pics above would not look like the hero jacket at all if Ford put in on. It would look like a TOD jacket, which it later became. Perhaps they wouldn't be termed that in the industry, but I think it's a term that fits well here.

So, the jacket that became the Expedition had all the same features of the hero jacket? It needed no tweeking?
Please keep in mind, I'm really asking. I wasn't around for it's inception. I came in a year or two after at Indyfan and then here, so this would be my first understanding of it.

What you guys don't realize is that the pleats are NOT sewn.
Grab your Wested and you will see that the pleat ends just at where the side strap is.

The jacket TL is wearing in that pic is a different construction. The pleats are not sewn there, but run further down until about 2 inches from the bottom. Look at the photo. It's there.

Now if you look at the photo where HF hangs in front of the truck you will see that the pleat structure is the same as in the modern Wested.

That said, if you look at screen caps from TOD you will see the sama pattern as in TL's jacket under the truck.

Well, if I were being dragged under a truck, I would want the side vents closed-down as much as possible to help prevent the jacket from riding-up on me. I would not be surprised if the jacket was secured to the body from the inside to prevent ride-up while being dragged... (Also to prevent any padding being shown on film)

So to me, it seems quite plausible that the stunt jacket was sewn and modified for extra protection to the stuntman, and to keep any padding being shown while filming...

Way OT but I just noticed your avatar Technonut. Thats fricken cool!

Part of my problem is that I cannot get myself to even take the ToD disk from its case, let alone watch the thing...

In that case please allow me to help




and



There is NO way that this is sewn up. It was manufactured like this from the start.

Can't you see?

Regarding the patch pockets,...is this something that was on Terry Leonards jacket, AND Fords jacket?? My current Expo has patch pockets, but Wested uses deep hand warmers that enter the body of the jacket.
Just curious if this was something Wested added for convenience of use, as opposed to screen accuracy.

Great thread, BTW.
'Blues

_ wrote:

Michaelson wrote:

_ wrote: Personally, I am convinced that anybody here can find posts where I have done it too… Mea culpa…

No...honestly, I can't think of a time that that ever occurred with you, old friend. Nope...

Regards! Michaelson

I stand corrected by the master - I have NEVER over complicated anything! Now, can you call my wife and see if SHE buys this load of manure?

That is one trail I will NOT travel down!!!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

_ wrote:

IndyBlues wrote:Regarding the patch pockets,...is this something that was on Terry Leonards jacket, AND Fords jacket?? My current Expo has patch pockets, but Wested uses deep hand warmers that enter the body of the jacket.
Just curious if this was something Wested added for convenience of use, as opposed to screen accuracy.

Great thread, BTW.
'Blues

My apology - I have been using the term "patch pocket" in a fast and loose manner... I have always been referring to two-way patch pockets, i.e. traditional A2 style pockets with the addition of handwarmer slits...

The jacket I examined and that the FS Expedition is based upon both have these two-way pockets...

Personally, I'd prefer to have simple patch pockets. I never use the handwarmers and they have always been a weak point in the construction of the Wested's... IMHO...

Thanks for the clarification. I was always curious about this feature.
Again, great thread. Lots of tasty info.
'Blues

New information always changes the situation slightly. Well, in terms of the great jacket debate I think I am spent for now. lol even I am indeed interested about Todd's jacket cause like I have said before, I like the look of it so far. It may be my next jacket, depending on what Peter's next pattern update looks like. Like everyone I am after the perfect jacket. I have to agree with _ because simply he knows much more than I do and I respect his knowledge. I'm backing out of the jacket debate for now. Until Todd's and the new Wested hits the market. Then I can make up my mind on which fly with in terms of my next jacket buy.

Ok, I don't know a thing about these jackets, but why do I see pleats???!! I see them clearly. They are opened up is all. My cowhide Wested from you _(via Michaelson) does this same thing when I wear a thick sweater under it. And even sometimes when I don't. I must be missing something. Because, I know you guys who have an eye for this jacket detail could not miss the pleats that I see in the above pics of Terry!! Fedora

I agree with Fedora that what we're seeing with the side of the TOD jacket is no more than the pleat opened up with the rear left portion the back panel unravelled.

SD

I think Fedora is referring to the area at the bottom of the jacket just in front of the side straps. That does look like a set of pleats, but considering this is a VERY distressed lambskin jacket, I believe it's just really wrinkled leather in that area.

Regards! Michaelson