The mystical Raiders HJ........

[Fedora]

I have been talking to Nicky at HJ and from my corresondance, I think I may know how the Raiders fedora came about. But, I don't think there is anything new here, so I will just repeat it.

Mr Swales actually blocked the Raiders fedora at the small shop. And, he hand cut the brims there. The block was not done by the factory. I think this may be where the difference lies. The Poet block set he had on hand must have been the last of the original Poet blocks. The later hats were factory made as evidenced by the ribbon work. The work you see on the Raiders fedora, the flying v, the hidden stitches holding the center of the bow to the hat is typical of HJ back in the old days, and I think Mr Swales just did the bowwork the way the old HJs were fashioned. Mr. Swales is the one who changed out the wider ribbon to the 39mm. That Mr Swales actually made these hats would also explain why the sweat was attached differently. He attached them the way my vintage HJs were attached, well above the brim break. The later hats for the other two films used factory HJs, and the sweat attachment was at the brim break, as can be seen in stills from the last two films. I think the diffence in these hats is due to Mr Swales actually making the first Raiders fedora himself while the factory made the hats for the other two films. That would explain EVERYTHING. This mystery may finally at last be solved. Fedora

[Pitfall Harry]

So do you know how many he made by hand? I'm just wondering if they would have bothered using the hand made hats for the stunt hats.

[agent5]

Thanks, Steve. I've been reading up on alot of this the past several days.

[Dalexs]

Whatever you do, don't let 3thoubucks see this thread!

[Fedora]

So do you know how many he made by hand? I'm just wondering if they would have bothered using the hand made hats for the stunt hats.

Wasn't there 12 in number of the Raiders fedora? I think he made each and every one by hand. If you look at most of the stunt hats, they look identical in blockshape to Fords. The stunt guy who did the under the truck stunt certainly had the same blockshape on his hat. And the same bowwork. I think that was Terry Leonard, but I get my stunt men confused. And I think he wore a 7 5/8 hat. But, there is one stunt hat that you see on a stunt man as he is playing Indy chasing after the truck with the Ark, early on. You get a side and behind the character shot, and it looks nothing like the same block. Perhaps someone has a scene capture of that one to illustrate. Fedora

[Fedora]

Whatever you do, don't let 3thoubucks see this thread!
_________________

Yeah, I don't want to have to go over that block stretcher idea again. I would say it is possible, but unlikely. I arrived at this because I tried it. It don't work. You have a major problem with the brim, but I don't have the time now to go into what stretching a hat up one size does to a brim, not to mention over one size of stretching. Since we can actually see the Raiders block shape in that old HJ catalog pic, this just adds to my side of the discussion. Now, if the straigter Raiders blockshape was not present in that HJ catalog, I would have to rethink it. Fedora

[Pitfall Harry]

3thoubucks posted a thread last night that I can't seem to find. His conclusion was that the feds are the only hats available with correct crown height? He came to this conclusion after working on the Akubra Bushman hat for a few weeks. I think he also mentioned something about the block stretcher as well.

I think what Fedora posted is the easiest and most plausible explination for the Raiders hats.

[Kaplan]

Hey Fedora, I'd say that this is the most convincing theory. Less assumptions and less complex unrealistic hypothetical %#@$.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
-Principle of Occam's Razor

-GC

[GCR]

This theory work for me as well. Certainly seems reasonable enough...

Still doesn't quite explain the "turn" though...

-GCR

[agent5]

If the hats came open crowned then all you had to do was turn it to get 'the turn', right? That would be a question I'd love to ask Deborah Nadoolman about...if she'd recall.

[Dakota Ellison]

That's the way I've always thought it was made. I think it must have been Vic Armstrong who wore the 7 5/8 as he was in all 3 films.

[Kaplan]

If the hats came open crowned then all you had to do was turn it to get 'the turn', right? That would be a question I'd love to ask Deborah Nadoolman about...if she'd recall.

You know, I have a law professor that is exactly like Deborah Nadoolman! She's just as pretty (I mean for an older lady...spitting image) And just as forgetful. she lost the only copy of one of the most important papers I have ever written. I was mad until I learned more about the personality type. She's a NADOOLMAN!!!!!!!!!


Go figure!
-GC

[Fedora]

Ah, our surveyor sent the pics!!!











I was wrong. This is the same block Ford wore. Any taper you see, front and back was on the original Raiders fedora. This just proves my point on the front and back taper. When you put in the top crease to the right depth that Ford wore his, the back straightens up to be perfectly perpendicular to the brim plane. The reverse taper of the SOC hat is a bulge, not true reverse taper. Thanks David for the pics. You are a lifesaver!!! Fedora

[Fedora]

conclusion was that the feds are the only hats available with correct crown height?

I think he is way off base. But, I also understand that a pointy, domey dome could be be 5 3/4 and still crease down to what we see on the film in creased crown height. The only catch here is, the pointy domey dome will not work for a Raiders fedora. It does work great for telescope crowns like the Croc Dundee hat, and the Bogie hat. The Bogey hat you see in the Sam Spade series started out as a 6 inch crown. It has a tapered block shape, with a pointy domey dome. This sort of block shape was used to create a particular fedora look, ala the Bogey hat. But to think this sort of block shape was used for the Raiders fedora is way off base, IMHO. The above pics clearly show me that this HJ did not have a domey dome. I mean, to me it just jumps out at cha.

Some of us just see too much when we look. I used to be guilty of that too. I have moved into the KISS camp. Keep it simple stupid. And please, don't take that as an insult to anyone!! I would never insult any of my fellow fans and friends here. I love 3M$'s tendency to think outside the box. I just personally think the anwsers are inside the box in this case. You just need to open that box up!! And hopefully it won't be Pandora's Box!!! Fedora

[BendingOak]

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
-Principle of Occam's Razor

I live by this, and I agree.

Still doesn't quite explain the "turn" though...

I alway thought that thier was more than one hand in making the " raiders hat."

I think it started just as Steve said but with one more thing added. I think it was bashed but it was a loose crease job ( like you see in the Hj add). I think the turn and the tight front crease was added by Ford and Nadoolman.

[GCR]

Still doesn't quite explain the "turn" though...

I alway thought that thier was more than one hand in making the " raiders hat."

I think it started just as Steve said but with one more thing added. I think it was bashed but it was a loose crease job ( like you see in the Hj add). I think the turn and the tight front crease was added by Ford and Nadoolman.

Seems reasonable enough to me as well...I just wonder if the turn was functional, in order to get the hat to fit on Ford's head a little tighter, or if it was cosmetic, to give the hat a more distinctive look...Or maybe the turn was an effort to keep more of Ford's head in view and keep the brim out of his eyes. I've noticed that on some of my older, unturned hats, the brim would droop down into my field of vision more, and I would have to keep the hat tilted further back on my head in order to see clearly. With the turn, the brim distorts and does more "swoop" and less "droop", giving me a better field of vision and enabling me to wear it normally. Maybe the Raiders hat had a similar problem and that had something to do with the legendary turn?

I'm also curious as to why they opted for the tight, razor edge front pinch. Perhaps that made it easier to keep continuity with all the hats, rather than a loose front pinch which could change slightly from hat to hat and shot to shot, like in ToD or LC?

Aw jeeze, look at me, now I'M throwing around whacky Raiders fedora theories...

-GCR

[BendingOak]

Sounds posible to me but I think the turn was done by misstake. Why would they have to turn one hat for the first movie but not thee next two?

[Mike]

Just to clarify, this is Terry Leonard, not Vic Armstrong.

[GCR]

Sounds posible to me but I think the turn was done by misstake. Why would they have to turn one hat for the first movie but not thee next two?

That's a good question, one that plagues me as well...coulda been a lotta things, different hats (as Fedora points out in his theory, the ToD and LC hats were factory hats) a different costume designer (Anthony Powell I think, not Nadoolman), maybe Ford was getting the hats and they were already bashed by someone in the costume dept, and he was unable to put his own personal touches in. Maybe there were just so many dang hats that he didn't bother putting his his touches in. Maybe the brims were cut differently, or flanged differently, or the felt was stiffer so they didn't droop as much. Maybe the factory hats fit better, or maybe the newer factory hats couldn't hold up under the wear and tear of production and were being replaced at such a fast pace that there was no time for little details like the turn. Then again, it really could have just been a mistake...it really is a big unknown...I could keep throwing theories and "what if's" out there all day, but in the end, we just don't know.

-GCR

[Indiana Neri]

The above shots of Terry Leonard have always bugged me when watching Raiders. The hat looks too square (but this is coming form someone who is not a hat maker) in those shots, giving it away that it was clearly not HF (I wonder why Ford couldn't ride the horse along the cliff, I think it's him coming down the hill). So does that mean that this stunt hat is really a hat "fresh off the block" then, seeing how they weren't really concerned about details (like bashing the hat) to make it more like the hero hat?

[agent5]

Not only is the hat not bashed and shaped like Ford's but the jacket is also constructed differently, adding to the giving away of the stuntman.

[whiskyman]

Ford is only in the close up, Terry Leonard rides down the hill to the truck.
I tihnk the hat only looks too square becuse it doesn't really have a proper centre dent.

[3thoubucks]

Sorry Pitfall saw my post about the Fed dome being the most accurate. I wasn't happy with my Bushman, and blamed it's generic dome- but I deleted the post and decided to give the Bushman another chance- it's not half bad! I can't even decide if I think the Fed or the Bushman more acurate. If I can get a hat I like from a Bushman, there's no doubt I could get one with an AB.

[IndyFlyer]

Good stuff here Fedora and all. Gotta be careful solving and proving theories, we won't have anything to talk about... Ha, I know, I know--we'll just come at it from a different angle.

[Pitfall Harry]

Sorry Pitfall saw my post about the Fed dome being the most accurate. I wasn't happy with my Bushman, and blamed it's generic dome- but I deleted the post and decided to give the Bushman another chance- it's not half bad! I can't even decide if I think the Fed or the Bushman more acurate. If I can get a hat I like from a Bushman, there's no doubt I could get one with an AB.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought maybe I imagined the whole thing.

I can't say if your method is what they used for the film hats but all of your hats always look great. So I guess when all is said and done it doesn't matter what path you take just as long you get the same look and results.

[Fedora]

So I guess when all is said and done it doesn't matter what path you take just as long you get the same look and results.

And I agree fully. The whole key is just to use a block that is reasonably straight on the sides when viewed from the front. The trouble is most of the vintage blocks I have seen are all tapered in that area, so it is hard to find one that is straight. But they do exist! Fedora

[golpeo_rapidamente]

the truck chase was second unit so maybe the wardrobe was second unit (less detail as main shoot wardrobe?)
Terry probably did the horse stuff to free Harrison up for some close up stuff
remember Raiders was shot cheap and cheerfull so concurrent activity would have been the rule and not the exception