Club Obi Wan

Don't get me wrong, I love my 1911's and my Model 22 and Model 10 Smith's, but, the Springfield XD .45 ACP and the new Smith & Wesson M&P in .40 S&W are flat out working pistols.

I know, I know, Tupperware and what not, but I didn't see it until I believed it.

pigirondan wrote:I know, I know, Tupperware and what not, but I didn't see it until I believed it.

Well.....uh...ok.... ... and I'll suport your right to say that too.....I think.

Regards! Michaelson

Today was all kinds of firsts. First time shooting the M&P and first time shooting at an indoor range.

This has all come about because my son is in a police academy and is going through his weapons training. His department issue weapon is a Smith & Wesson 4506. Frankly, it's not the best. However, he can use (at his own expense) Glock, Sig-Sauer, Smith & Wesson, Beretta or a 1911 platform. We went to the indoor range because they rent pistols.

His caliber choices are: .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9 mm, 40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

The .38 Special and .357 Magnum would not be primary, but for back-up and off duty weapons.

Dan, if you can't talk him in to carrying a 1911 as primary and a .38 snubby in his pocket a back up your a failure as a father. just kidding!

I have to give the devil his due in that the plastic guns do work. I just don't care for them though. They lack the "soul" of the classics like 1911's and S&W revolvers.

J_Weaver wrote: They lack the "soul" of the classics like 1911's and S&W revolvers.

Yeah, and the plastic doesn't give the little menacing touch that the glint of metal does when pulled from a holster.

For what it's worth, I agree. But, it's his ### not mine that's on the line. I have to say, I would suggest everyone try one of those XD's in .45 ACP. Also, do a Google search and check out the Glock Model 21 torture test. Three different platforms for the .45 ACP.

I am very far from a polymer fan, but I recently spent time at a range with a springfield xd 4inch service model. I have to admit, it was one of the most natural pointing and smoothest firing autos I have ever put rounds through. Only the lower half is polymer, the top slide is steel. I now intend on purchasing a 5inch tactical model in .45acp very soon. The price is right, and trust me, this gun shoots! 14 rounds of .45 that balances out beautifully, no larger handgrip than the 9 or 40, but with more punch and a longer sighting plane, and the round matches our 1917/22's. IMHO Glock is running the market with similar handguns, but the XD shoots comparably for the money. In a year or two, when Glock's contracts expire, the XD could going to go way up in price. Check out the shooter's reviews over the last 6 months on the XD. An editor will get one to test, then go on his own and buy 2 more. Just one gun in the arsenal with a light rail, the ability to customize sights, and high capacity should not be shunned. Bonus, the factory mags only cost $35!

For comparison: at my gun shop the 4inch is around $480, and the 5inch tactical around $550. Smokin' bang for the buck.

one of the things i have never really liked about the polymer lower guns (glocks, xd's and the like) is the balance difference between a full mag and an almost empty mag. its not something that can't be over come by getting use to it but it is there.

my 1911 one the other hand there is very little change in the balance from the first shot to the last because of the heavy metal frame.

however i do have to say some of these new polymer handguns are true work horses that can take a beating and the xd .45 is on my wish list. i'll actually more then likely trade my glock 17 for one.

I noticed the same thing. (A change in balance.) I put in a fresh, fully loaded magazine, and the balance returned.

J_Weaver wrote:Dan, if you can't talk him in to carrying a 1911 as primary and a .38 snubby in his pocket a back up your a failure as a father. just kidding!

I have to give the devil his due in that the plastic guns do work. I just don't care for them though. They lack the "soul" of the classics like 1911's and S&W revolvers.

Hi,

Seen similar discussions in person and on-line. The best suggestion I could give is for him to find one that best meets all of the following criteria:

1. That he would be willing & able to carry (physical dimensions & weight) on a regular basis.

2. That he feels comfortable wearing and holding.

3. That he can shoot accurately.

4. That he can shoot quickly.

5. That has a reasonable capacity given # 1 above.

6. That has the largest caliber possible given 1-5 above.

Forget all the hype about velocity, foot pounds of kinetic energy at 50 yards, and whether it is all blue steel, stainless steel, or black combat tupperware (which I prefer).

Many of the federal agencies have gone to the .40S&W or the .357SIG. using a variety of manufacturers. Both rounds have their pros and cons and which is better can be argued ad nauseaum (been there for the discussions), but none of it matters if the person isn't comfortable with the firearm.

Comfort leads to confidence, confidence leads to competency, which leads back to comfort.

For me personally using the above criteria, on duty it's the G23 in .40SW, and off duty either the G27 in .40SW or a S&W 640 in .357. My wife prefers the S&W 669 in 9mm for on and off duty, but that's what she does best with given 1-6.

Anthony

Before becoming a firefighter, I too was a member of the law enforcement community. Things were so much simpler then. (1975) Model 19 for our carry gun. Model 36 for our back-up and a 1911 in our brief case. (We carried all our report forms, lunch, etc. in it and used it for a writing desk in the car.)

Those were the days. I asked my son if they were allowed to carry Black Jacks, Beavertail Saps and short Billies still. He looked at me like the Dinosaur I am.

I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

Eh, Glocks are okay, but they are definately no Sigs.

Magnum Jones wrote:I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

I hear this argument all the time and its makes no sense to me. (not picking on you MJ, just talking generally) I guess those test are cool and all and make the buyer think there really getting something. But any point does it serve? If my duty weapon has been underwater for 50 hours then I'm not gonna need because I've like been drowned for 49hours and 55 minutes.

I suppose that that is the rub. The whole point of the Sally Rand, bare bones 1911-A1 was it's ability to function well under adverse conditions. The tolerances being such that grit, sand and dust would be ingested, disgested and ejected, while still putting out that big 230 grain hardball. The Glock 17 and Glock 21 have been put through some horrendous torture tests that indicate that they too will function at the junction.

If you can get a "service" type semi-automatic that can put most every round in a 3" x 5" index card @ 25', well, frankly, you got all you need for self-defense.

J_Weaver wrote:

Magnum Jones wrote:I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

I hear this argument all the time and its makes no sense to me. (not picking on you MJ, just talking generally) I guess those test are cool and all and make the buyer think there really getting something. But any point does it serve? If my duty weapon has been underwater for 50 hours then I'm not gonna need because I've like been drowned for 49hours and 55 minutes.

I don't think its so much the issue of being under water, heated salt water, ice water or any type of water. But the durability of glock, like the drop in the mud test, the heated salt water test, throw against a wall locked and loaded. They just plain take abuse, and still function. Some of the most corrosive acids known that will eat about any metal come in a plastic container.
You can make issues either way, and I love my Kimber as much as my glock. But when it comes to plain use and abuse like brutal combat situations I would chose my glock anyday. Just my opinon.

Magnum Jones wrote:I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

5 years ago, I too decided to give in to the Glock Craze. I too had the 23. I have never hated a gun as much as I did this one. (and I have had a few) I finaly traded it for a new XD sub compact 40. It is as good out of the box as my colt commander. It is very easy to conceal to boot. As for any carry gun, practise, practise practise. If you can not use it under stress and any condition, you should not be packing.

On pack trips I will carry a Ruger 357 or 41 mag depending on conditions, and of course how close we are to Griz areas.

Cowboy wrote:

Magnum Jones wrote:I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

5 years ago, I too decided to give in to the Glock Craze. I too had the 23. I have never hated a gun as much as I did this one. (and I have had a few) I finaly traded it for a new XD sub compact 40. It is as good out of the box as my colt commander. It is very easy to conceal to boot. As for any carry gun, practise, practise practise. If you can not use it under stress and any condition, you should not be packing.

On pack trips I will carry a Ruger 357 or 41 mag depending on conditions, and of course how close we are to Girz areas.

I don't think I said anything about not being able to preform under stress. As far as practicing dropping my $1100.00 kimber in the mud or other torture test, thats why they write reveiws and make magazines. As far as a Colt goes out of the box I'd rather throw rocks. They dont jam. Colts are good firearms once you get them dialed in, but a colt is not a take out of the box gun and shoot.

Magnum Jones wrote:

Cowboy wrote:

Magnum Jones wrote:I am a big 1911 fan, but soak it in heated salt water for 50 hours and still come out firing like the glock.
I was never a glock fan until I bought one. A g23 .40cal. I am now a fan of glock as well as 1911 models as well.

5 years ago, I too decided to give in to the Glock Craze. I too had the 23. I have never hated a gun as much as I did this one. (and I have had a few) I finaly traded it for a new XD sub compact 40. It is as good out of the box as my colt commander. It is very easy to conceal to boot. As for any carry gun, practise, practise practise. If you can not use it under stress and any condition, you should not be packing.

On pack trips I will carry a Ruger 357 or 41 mag depending on conditions, and of course how close we are to Girz areas.

I don't think I said anything about not being able to preform under stress. As far as practicing dropping my $1100.00 kimber in the mud or other torture test, thats why they write reveiws and make magazines. As far as a Colt goes out of the box I'd rather throw rocks. They dont jam. Colts are good firearms once you get them dialed in, but a colt is not a take out of the box gun and shoot.

Magnum-You seem a little sensitve. I was not aiming (no pun intended) at you-just commenting that practise is important for any one who chooses to carry for SD..... As for the Colt not being an "out of the box shooter" I beg to differ. How many have you purchased new (Colts that is) or have you just heard others comment?

Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I could not agree more about practice. You should put atleast 200 rounds of the type of ammo through any firearm you plan to carry for SD. You need to know how it functions and will feed.
And yes I have had 2 new colts, a Double Eagle in 10mm, and a GoldCup in .45 acp. I am suprised you prefer the 11lb trigger out of the box on the Colt over the Glocks 4lb trigger. What did you like better on the XD over the Glock?