Club Obi Wan

I am 99 per cent certain that the Raiders fedora had the blue vintage crest on a light gold liner. If you watch the walkthrough video, look at the 4th hat pulled from the box and notice the bow work on the ribbon. No tack points, blue crest, light gold liner. My own vintage HJ that I have posted has the same crest, light gold liner and no tacks on the bow. The later HJs all have the 4 tack points on the middle of the bow. Hj used that gold liner for many years before changing to the white liner, with either pentagon crest, or the later oval one. I thought some might find this interesting. Fedora

Do you have any pics of your HJ? Or any screen shots from the walk-through (I've never seen it)?

Makes sense. So the liners' chronological order would be blue crest, pentagon, oval?

I've been thinking about this liner business lately... would be neat to install a gold/blue crest liner in my new HJ... wonder if HJ might have any left in some forgotten warehouse crate...?

A light gold liner, with a blue crest, eh?

This, I'd love to see. I once had an older brown Stetson that had a bright yellow/gold liner...I don't recall the age of the Stetson, but it was definitely pre-Raiders. I always liked the gold liner on a brown hat...

I'd love to see some pics!

-GCR

fedora, do you think that the change in crest also was an indicator of when HJ's felt quality started going downhill?

Makes sense. So the liners' chronological order would be blue crest, pentagon, oval?

Yes, that seems logical with what I have seen. What is weird is we can see the pentagon in TLC, and also in the warehouse walkthrough. But, when Dakota lucked upon TLC hat with the IJ on the sweat, his came with the oval. I am thinking perhaps between the first order from Lucas and the second(that they never picked up and was sold) there was a change of crests from the pentagon to the oval. Of course, some of the first lot of LC fedoras may have come with the oval and the pentagon too, with the last batch having the oval. The oval just does not show up in the one shot we have of it in the film, and doesn't show up in the hats that were filmed in the warehouse. All theory here. But, the blue crest does show up in the warehouse, along with the light gold lining. I really feel this was the Raiders fedora he pulled out of that box, the 4th hat I think. I wish I had the ability to grab some screen captures from that video of those hats. Perhaps someone more talented than me will take the time to do so.

Do you have any pics of your HJ?

Yes, I will get them and post here later on today. I am pressed for time now with a hat waiting to be blocked. Incidently, I just sold that hat and meant to get a load of photos inside and out, to add to the few I took when I first got it. Why sell it? I have two!!! One came linerless with the glued on crest as is common with linerless hats. Both from 38 New Bond. And both with identical straight stove piped blocks. The other two old ones I have came with the LC block shape, but were from the Burlington address. I no longer have the liners and sweats for those, unless I put them back to save. They were in bad shape, dry rotted to the point that the sweats were turning to powder. The older sweats actually held up better it seems.

fedora, do you think that the change in crest also was an indicator of when HJ's felt quality started going downhill?

I really do. I think the oval crest possibly represented a change of felt supplier, and the quality dropped. I do know, I have never seen a blue crest HJ with gold liner that wasn't excellent felt. As with the other hat companies, the later hats saw a drop in quality. My old HJs have not tapered at all, and the one that I just sold is the exact same felt used in the Raiders fedora. It bulges out on its own, unlike any other felt I have ever seen, from just wearing the hat. It took several months to do so, but there is was, ala SOC. I am still amazed by it. Much of this was due to the floppiness of the felt itself. And that is the main reason that I never bought into the 3M$ theory of the SOC hat. Heck, I had one that mimiced it exactly with no extra treatment. Wish I could find that supplier, but more than likely they are long gone. No one makes that sort of felt today, as far as I have seen. Fedora

Here is my vintage HJ.









Here are the various HJ crests, the first one being in my hat.








Here is an old HJ open crowned from the front.




Here is one that came from Todd



Fedora

The Pentagon is ANJALI's, and so is this one: http://public.fotki.com/ANJALI/hatsanja ... 01web.html

Here's the Lucas Walkthrough pic, incredibly poor quality don't cha think?

Hm. So the gold liner is in fact white crown with gold sides. And the screen cap seems to have the liner colors the other way around.

Fedora wrote:Here is my vintage HJ.



Fedora

Now THAT is a sight to behold. Without a doubt the finest HJ I have ever seen outside of Raiders. Beautiful...perfect...I can't even sum it all up into words...that hat looks like it was plucked right off of Ford's head in the Streets of Cairo scenes (and cleaned, of course). Why did HJ ever have to change? WHY?!?!?!

Anyway, it seems a bt strange that there is such a variety of liners for HJ's out there. Why so many, I wonder? Why so much variation? Very strange indeed.

-GCR

Hm. So the gold liner is in fact white crown with gold sides. And the screen cap seems to have the liner colors the other way around.
_________________

Wow, yep you are right Two toned liner, white and gold. Anjali's looks like it may be all gold. But none were straight white, the way we all used to assume until these pics popped up. I think the liner we see in LC was white though, if I recall correctly.

Now THAT is a sight to behold. Without a doubt the finest HJ I have ever seen outside of Raiders. Beautiful...perfect...I can't even sum it all up into words...that hat looks like it was plucked right off of Ford's head in the Streets of Cairo scenes (and cleaned, of course). Why did HJ ever have to change? WHY?!?!?!

Much of what you see there is the particular characteristic of that particular felt. With the right felt and the right block, this is what you get. Change either one and you come up short. With that said, if you use this felt on a too tapered block, even the felt will not make up the difference. The only way I would ever offer rabbit felt again would be if I could find this same felt. I have looked, to no avail. Portugal does not have it, Argentina does not have it, Brazil(Cury) does not have it, Winchester does not have it, Akubra does not have it, Hatco does not have it, Beaver Brands does not have it, Biltmore does not have it. Of the 8 feltmakers left in the world(if you take China out of the equation, since they were not around at that time), no one makes this sort of felt anymore. This felt is not particularly dense, but does not shrink due to the age, I guess. Fedora

fedora..did u get my PM about my hat?

Dakota, check this one out. The blue crest was used at 13 Old Burlington.

Fedora wrote:Here is my vintage HJ.





Fedora

Fedora,

Is that the original block shape for those two HJ's? I'm guessing at least the second one is original, as it seems unlikely you'd opt for a ribbon that style after blocking the hat yourself. But what about the first HJ? Was that one open crowned as well or did you do the blocking yourself? Is that the original ribbon on HJ#1?

-GCR

Is that the original block shape for those two HJ's? I'm guessing at least the second one is original, as it seems unlikely you'd opt for a ribbon that style after blocking the hat yourself. But what about the first HJ? Was that one open crowned as well or did you do the blocking yourself? Is that the original ribbon on HJ#1?

Yes, both are original. I changed out the ribbon on both, to the 1 1/2 inch. Otherwise, I have not touched either block shape. No need to, as this older felt does not taper. It just bulges and sags once your wear it and get it wet a time or two. Once the felt gets old enough to not shrink, the hat just looks more SOC looking as it gets older. I am sure at some point I may have to reblock, but it would take a long time, I think. Fedora

Hey Guys,

On that well-used HJ from the archives photo, is it not plausable that the plastic covering that tends to be over the crest has simply faded due to the extensive wear of the hat in the film? My Akubra has demonstrated a similar off-coloration--so I wonder if perhaps this is the case?

Cheers
Craig

I though so too at first, Craig - a white liner would likely turn yellow with age and wear... If there is a plastic cap covering the crown part of the liner, it might well be discoloured.

Then again, Steve stated that his vintage HJ had a gold liner, which proves that such liners did exist. Though the liner in Anjali's hat, with the pentagon emblem, looks like it could have been white some decades ago... guess determining whether it's gold or just old is more obvious in person. Paging Anjali...

There's also the other two-tone liner - the blue-crested one in Steve's post - which has the colors reversed. The difference in the gold sides and the white crown cap look too distinct to be discolouration, IMO.

If only someone at HJ could adress these issues. I e-mailed them and asked about the old Herbie liners. Hopefully, someone at Swaine will either be able to give answers or direct me to a more knowledgeable source...

Good to see that the old Herbert J still fascinates and mystifies...

The old ones always have, SJ. It's the new ones that disappoint and bore.....

Regards! Michaelson

Ah, so very true. Still, I believe there's a teensy bit of hope secretly nurtured around the board... hope that Herbie some day would restore their former glory... imagine a brand new HJ with THE felt characteristics and THE block shape - a veritable Holy Grail indeed!

The again, we do have the ultimate Indy hat makers in-house, so there's no need to settle for sub-par felt and shape...

Sorry, but what looks golden on the top of that liner in the warehouse video, is - what I believe to be - a faded plastic cap. I know they where made in light golden colors, but the one in the vid. seems with with a faded plastic cap to me.

Regards,

Marc

I have yet to see an HJ with a plastic liner. But, my experience is limited to only 5 or 5 vintage HJs. Fedora

I have yet to see an HJ with a plastic liner.

Really?! Wow! My vintage HJ HAS it!

Regards,

Marc

Pics?

I wonder why there is such an inconsistentcy with the HJ liners and crests over the years? From what I gather, HJ isn't now and never was a super-huge hat producer (I know they're big, or at least they were years ago, but I'm saying they were never on par with the likes of big-time hat producers like Stetson when it came to the amount of hats they were putting out...maybe I am wrong here?), seems strange that there would be so much variation in a small detail like the the liner. Some gold, some white, some black, some two-tone, some without plastic, some with plastic...some with this crest, some with that crest...anyone have any theories on why there is such a variety? If HJ couldn't keep consistent with a small detail such as the liner, I guess it's no wonder they couldn't keep consistent with big details like felt quality, block shape, etc.

-GCR

Just want to make sure here - that screen grab with the gold crest hat from my ILM walk through had a thin plastic cover over the crest but all that discoloration in there around the blue and gold crest was sort of a green algae discoloration. Seriously - it was green in there. I had another of my HJ's do this once - turn green in there.

SECOND - search Indiana Jones in Google News!!!! Lucas killed it again!!!! Oh my god!!!!!!!! WHAT a jack#$$!!!!!

Just want to make sure here - that screen grab with the gold crest hat from my ILM walk through had a thin plastic cover over the crest

AHHHH!

Thanks,

Marc

GCR wrote:I wonder why there is such an inconsistentcy with the HJ liners and crests over the years? From what I gather, HJ isn't now and never was a super-huge hat producer (I know they're big, or at least they were years ago, but I'm saying they were never on par with the likes of big-time hat producers like Stetson when it came to the amount of hats they were putting out...maybe I am wrong here?), seems strange that there would be so much variation in a small detail like the the liner. Some gold, some white, some black, some two-tone, some without plastic, some with plastic...some with this crest, some with that crest...anyone have any theories on why there is such a variety? If HJ couldn't keep consistent with a small detail such as the liner, I guess it's no wonder they couldn't keep consistent with big details like felt quality, block shape, etc.

-GCR

Consistancy is overated.

These were/are bespoke hats, each is individualy made. Sometimes the customer may have asked for a paricular colour, sometimes it's just what they sourced that year, some may have been a particular colour due to some national or international event, a coronation or a jubilee.

In this mass produced, cookie cutter world we now live in, we sometimes forget, quantity does not necessarily equal quality. IMO.

Dakota, check this one out. The blue crest was used at 13 Old Burlington.

I have one like that. It's a gray trilby with a sticker date of 1978. I've thought about transfering the liner and sweatband to my Todd's HJ to make it look more authentic. So for a while, HJ used the same small blue shield used on the 38 New bond. Has anyone made copies of that walkthrough yet? I sure would like to see it.

Has anyone made copies of that walkthrough yet? I sure would like to see it.

Yeah...what he said.

Kt Templar wrote:Consistancy is overated.

You might be right about that as far as liners go...but when it comes to felt quality and block shape, I think there may be a few people around here who would argue with you on that point.

Kt Templar wrote:These were/are bespoke hats, each is individualy made. Sometimes the customer may have asked for a paricular colour, sometimes it's just what they sourced that year, some may have been a particular colour due to some national or international event, a coronation or a jubilee.

In this mass produced, cookie cutter world we now live in, we sometimes forget, quantity does not necessarily equal quality. IMO

Good point. My only issue was that liners, with a company name and address, logo, etc. obviously cost something...from a financial standpoint, for a hatter the size of HJ to have so many different variations doesn't seem to make financial sense. A company like Stetson could afford this variation due to the number of hats they were producing. I'm not saying one hat or brand is better than the other. I suppose HJ could afford the multiple styles of liners over the years due to the incredible retail markup they put on the price of their hats. Then again, are liners even much of an expense in the first place??? I honestly don't know...

Quote:
Has anyone made copies of that walkthrough yet? I sure would like to see it.

Yeah...what he said.

Ditto

-GCR

In last crusade, if you pause it at the part where Indy takes off his hat in donovans apartment, the hat has a white lining with the red oval crest it looks like. Is there any pictures from raiders??

GCR wrote:

Kt Templar wrote:Consistancy is overated.

You might be right about that as far as liners go...but when it comes to felt quality and block shape, I think there may be a few people around here who would argue with you on that point.

Kt Templar wrote:These were/are bespoke hats, each is individualy made. Sometimes the customer may have asked for a paricular colour, sometimes it's just what they sourced that year, some may have been a particular colour due to some national or international event, a coronation or a jubilee.

In this mass produced, cookie cutter world we now live in, we sometimes forget, quantity does not necessarily equal quality. IMO

Good point. My only issue was that liners, with a company name and address, logo, etc. obviously cost something...from a financial standpoint, for a hatter the size of HJ to have so many different variations doesn't seem to make financial sense. A company like Stetson could afford this variation due to the number of hats they were producing. I'm not saying one hat or brand is better than the other. I suppose HJ could afford the multiple styles of liners over the years due to the incredible retail markup they put on the price of their hats. Then again, are liners even much of an expense in the first place??? I honestly don't know...

Quote:
Has anyone made copies of that walkthrough yet? I sure would like to see it.

Yeah...what he said.

Ditto

-GCR

The real point I'm trying to make is that, the liners may have "evolved" over the years. They print some up, next time the person ordering fancies a different colour, next time they go to a diffrent printer and he suggests that is would look nice etc, etc.

Even Coca-Cola labels changed over the years even before thay were megacorporatised. Nowadays they change the logo slightly every few years just to keep it looking "fresh".

Kt Templar wrote: The real point I'm trying to make is that, the liners may have "evolved" over the years. They print some up, next time the person ordering fancies a different colour, next time they go to a diffrent printer and he suggests that is would look nice etc, etc.

Even Coca-Cola labels changed over the years even before thay were megacorporatised. Nowadays they change the logo slightly every few years just to keep it looking "fresh".

I hear ya, what you're saying makes perfect sense. Although I never heard of anyone ever asking for a specific type of liner in their hat, unless they were an Indy fan. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, so I'm not knocking you there.

My question, I guess, is if there is any connection between the changes in liner and changes to the actual hat (beyond whatever liner changes were either customer requested or necessitated by a change in the company address). Changes such as type or quality of felt, felt supplier, even the hat color. Akubra, for example, has their standard liner with the nice red crest in the regular Federation (or at least they did, I really liked that one) but a different liner in the Fed Deluxe, without the crest. It's the same model hat, but two different levels of felt quality. Perhaps HJ had a similar practice?

-GCR

In last crusade, if you pause it at the part where Indy takes off his hat in donovans apartment, the hat has a white lining with the red oval crest it looks like. Is there any pictures from raiders??

That hat in the apartment upon closer examination here on this board, proved to be the pentagon. Same color as the oval crest seen later on in hats bought from HJ. Perhaps someone has that photo saved and will show ya. Fedora

Just more thoughts: The HJ I had from Old Burlington St. had the blue and gold crest in it.

And on the "walkthrough" video the hat with the blue card in the brim is the hat from Donovan's appt. - unless someone switched it. It says "Donovan's appt." on the card and Don Bies backed that up just after I was done with all that filming and asked him.

But why oh why did Lucas kill INDY 4 again? Anyone? I love Uncle George but knows NOTHING about scripts (Phantom Menace). I mean, I like all the Star Wars movies no matter what anyone says and I can just tell you now that I want to see the movie he just rejected from Darabont and Spielberg. What a SHAME.

Here's mine, pulled tight around a CD:



With some help from friends of mine, I'm about to have that design replicated "AB-style" (the HP instead of the unicorn, better satin quality and STITCHED instead of printed). I think that would be the nicest liner available today (not only for gearheads).

Regards,

Marc

Oh, sounds nice Marc.

With some help from friends of mine, I'm about to have that design replicated "AB-style"

Marc,
I'm just sounding off my opinion here and of course, with all due respect. I'm just think that with the reputation of the AB it would be in your best interest to separate yourself from any of the other Indy offerings, especially current sub-par ones such as the HJ, and do something 100% original instead of replicating anything thats already been done before.

There are alot of experienced and talented people on this board and others who I'm pretty sure would be happy to design logos for you to use. Heck, tip em a few bucks off a hat if it gets chosen. Do a contest or something. It'd be a great opportunity for the members and would help you out as well, not to mention be fun for the board. I'm sure you could come up with a better design than one that's been used and recognized.

I just think you guys have really set this hat apart from the others in many ways and I would think you'd want it to stand on it's own in all facets of it's existance.

Why, thank you! I take this as a compliment Jason. - I didn't think that way to be honest.

I'll make a poll and hear what other people think would be nicer to have.

Thanks again,

Marc

I just think you guys have really set this hat apart from the others in many ways and I would think you'd want it to stand on it's own in all facets of it's existance.

Personally(and I think Marc feels the same way) my intent was to copy the Raiders fedora, without putting HJ on the sweat and crest, but to also use a more durable felt for real world use. If you were having to pay several hundred bucks for a hat, at least make it out of pure beaver so the folks could get their money's worth. We are paying homeage to the original Raiders fedora here, and that was the intent from the get-go. Now that we know what the original crest was, I think the next step is to make our "copies" clearly pay homeage to the extinct HJ in as many ways as we can. I am all for this new crest, and the gold liner as well. If we can improve the quality in the process, I am all for it. We are both after high quaility Indy fedoras as we were both saddened by the state of current Indy fedoras on the market. To go off on our own tangent is nonsensical to me. Stay true to the original as best you can, while upgrading materials, and never forget what started this quest. It is all about the hat and not the AB brand, to me. We are trying to keep the spirit of the original hat alive and well and are not embarrassed that we strive to copy it as best that we can. We stole that hat fair and square since the old HJ company is gone, and so is Mr. Swales. Someone had to take up the torch. Might as well be a couple of anal retentive Indy fans. Otherwise we would all be wearing DPs or paying 400 bucks for a rabbit hat. Fedora

So well spoken my friend!!! Couldn't have said it better!

Regards,

Marc