Club Obi Wan

FIRST OFF, this thread is not intended to stir up the old, and as far as I'm concerned, very much settled, debate over whether the semi-auto Harrison Ford uses in the Raven Bar (and later on the Bantu Wind) was a Colt or a Browning. I think the evidence these days points rather convincingly to the weapon used in production being a Browning Hi-Power.

HOWEVER, my question to all those firearms experts out there, (I don't claim to be one myself, an avid shooter, & firearms enthusiast describes me better) is which type of weapon, Colt or Browning, fits better in terms of the story? In other words, was the Browning used as a stand in for a 1911 style .45? Were we, as viewers, supposed to believe Indy was carrying and shooting a 1911 or was the Browning truly supposed to be Indy's backup gun?

In terms of the story, the 1911 makes more sense, not only from a standpoint of ammo interchangeability with his primary weapon, but also from the standpoint that a 1911 was MUCH easier to come by for an American civilian in 1936 than an FN Browning Hi-Power.

Anyway, we know Ford had a Browning in his hands in the raven and Bantu scenes, but what was Indy's gun supposed to be?

I didn't know that it was a Browning until the day I found IndyGear.com on "teh intarweb". Before that, I always assumed he was using a 1911.

I wonder if the best answer to "What was Indy's gun supposed to be?" might just be "It depends". For a non-gearhead, the 1911 is the perfect gun for a rugged American hero of that time period to be using in a firefight. For the gearhead who has watched every episode of tYIJC, owns the full run of the Marvel comic series, and has printed and weathered their own Chachapoyan map, the Hi-Power is just the sort of gun you expect a well-traveled well-connected American hero to bring along to Nepal.

I think it would have been just as easy for a guy like Indy to get his hands on a 1911 as it would be for him to get his hands on a Peruvian (from his trip to the temple at the beginning of the movie) or Chinese (considering it's right next door to Nepal) Modele 1935.

Considering Indy was (according to YIJC) a member of the Belgian army during WW1, and more than likely still had contacts there, and the P35 Browning 9mm WAS the Belgian issued sidearm in the mid 30's, he could have just as easily had access TO a P35 from his past connections.

Still plays ok for me.

Regards! Michaelson

I have no bouts that it could have been both. A Browning in one scene and a Colt in the other. There's no reason to believe they are both the same fire-arm.

Coming from The United States... wouldn't it have been a Colt?

With his confrontation in the desert with the Nazi's... could he have seized a Browning?

Sure, but my only problem with that is the availability and extra effort of having to carry two different types of ammo. It made MUCH more sense for him to carry the Colt, as that way if his Smith HE was a .45 ACP conversion with full or half moon clips, all he HAD to carry was .45 ACP ammo.

But, that's NOT what we see in the movie. He has the Browning, and it was all due to the fact that the prop folks didn't have access to .45 ACP 4n1 blanks, as those scenes were all shot in England and off the coast of France.....and they DID have the Browning and 9mm blanks, so they put the Browning in his pocket. It was SUPPOSED to be a Colt 1911, but heck, they never figured we'd be discussing this nuance 25 years later.

Still, logistically, he could have easily had either semi-auto, as it is easily explained either way.

Regards! Michaelson

Your saying that on the set... Harrison Ford must have used a Browning. But in guise of "Indiana Jones" he would have been using a Colt. Cause that makes more sense.

That's what I'm suggesting, yes, but with the caveat that either way was possible for an individual like Indiana Jones and his global connections.

Regards! Michaelson

Actually, I think it makes sense to carry two different caliber handguns in a foreign land. If both of his guns were .45, and all he could get was 9mm ammo, where would he be? If both guns were 9mm and he could only find .45 locally, he would be up the creek. With two different handguns, he doubles his chances of being able to locally find ammunition. He would have at least one gun he could use.

You've got a good point there Fatdutchman!

But I wonder (and again, I wonder this because I don't really know the answer) if 9mm Para was as easy to come by in 1936 as it is today, where you can't help but trip over it no matter where you go?

Surely it would have been easy to come by in Europe, it being the pistol sized cartridge of choice for many large European powers, including Germany. Knowing he would doubtlessly be bumping into a Nazi or two, it seems reasonable that Jones would come up with a plan like that in case he came up short finding rounds for his .45 S&W.

So I guess interchangeability and NON-interchangeability both have their pros and cons.

It just seems funny to me that Indy would carry a revolver chambered for semi-auto ammo but then opt to carry a semi-auto backup gun in a completely different caliber. With the popularity worldwide of weapons like the Thompson Sub-machine gun and the 1911 style .45 itself, it seems reasonable to assume that .45 ACP wouldn't have been too hard to come by in certain far-off lands in 1936.

In fact, given Indy's final destination being Cairo, Egypt, the .455 caliber, a British round, if I'm not mistaken, would probably have been more common in that area (Due to the British Military presence in the area through WWI) than either .45 ACP and 9mm, right?

Do we even know why Indy carried a backup gun? I always sort of figured, after finding himself disarmed (and virtually helpless) so easily by Belloq in Peru, maybe Jones figured he better pack a little something extra on his quest for the Ark. After all, Nazis usually carry more than blowguns and spears and I bet Indy would have had a hard time outrunning a few rounds from a P-38.

Anyway, Colt or Browning, I guess either way it makes sense...Indy could have had either one. Despite it being a bit of a stretch for Indy to have a Hi-Power, at least it's still possible, knowing what we know now about the character.

-GCR

I've always thought the Browning was a stand-in for the 45 Auto (mentioned in the script). Seem to remember something about the Browning being well-suited for blanks compared to the Colt ... or maybe I dreamed that up?

Anyway, like Michaelson said, it works either way you choose.

Alabama Jones wrote:I've always thought the Browning was a stand-in for the 45 Auto (mentioned in the script). Seem to remember something about the Browning being well-suited for blanks compared to the Colt ... or maybe I dreamed that up?

Anyway, like Michaelson said, it works either way you choose.

That's exactly what I remember, from a thread years ago (5 or 6, at least), I think over at Indyfan.

That's what prompted me to post this in the first place, was this vague recollection that the Hi-Power was meant as a stand-in for the .45, because of blanks or something.

Thanks Alabama, I knew I wasn't losing it!

-GCR

GCR wrote:
Thanks Alabama, I knew I wasn't losing it!

-GCR

That, old friend, is another topic all together.....

HIGH regards! Michaelson

I've always liked the look of the Browning but the stopping power of the 45.

I think Michaelsons WW1 analogy is right on the mark (no punn intended ) , actually. Look at his choice of pistol in LC. Foreign. I think part of this is due to the worldly character of Indiana Jones.

Michaelson wrote:

GCR wrote:
Thanks Alabama, I knew I wasn't losing it!

-GCR

That, old friend, is another topic all together.....

HIGH regards! Michaelson

You got THAT right!

-GCR

Hey, the Hi power is FAR more "authentic" for 1936 than would be a Walther P38 or an MP38/40!!!

Agreed, agent5. I think he was quite comfortable with any firearm he might have come across due to his travels, and his military background that gives someone with that on their 'resume' a natural interest interest in an available firearm.

If you'll recall, he seemed quite comfortable with the P38 and the German machine gun he just so happened to 'acquire' in Last Crusade. No fiddling around...he just used them, and appeared to be quite comfortable with their operation.

(I see fatdutchman and I are on the same wavelength! (grins))

Regards! Michaelson

Fatdutchman wrote:Hey, the Hi power is FAR more "authentic" for 1936 than would be a Walther P38 or an MP38/40!!!

That's true, and don't forget this little beauty



-GCR

While we discuss the gun because of style and whatnot, I tend to think that Indy looked at the handgun as no more then a tool.

IMO, in terms of making the movie the Browing was a stand in for a 1911. However, if we want to analyze the character, them of either are quite possible. Perhaps Indy was a firearms enthusiast who used his Belgian connections to get his hand on "one of those cool new Hi Powers?"

I would have thought Indy wasn't THAT much of an expert, judging by the reaction he makes after firing the Walther p-38 in LC. He looks down at the gun with a puzzled look on his face (it's one of my favorite moments in LC). I would think pigirondan is on to something in his post about Indy using the gun as a tool. He probablly thought "a gun's a gun" and used whatever was availiable...unlike "The Terminator" who strictly goes after the biggest weapons.

A gun to Indy is like an adverb to a writer.

Indiana Neri wrote:Iunlike "The Terminator" who strictly goes after the biggest weapons.

Poor robot couldn't get hold of any phased plasma rifles in 40W range, so he's overcompensating.

The top contours of the slide on the Hi-Power in the bar fight, at the front and rear sights, look an awful lot like an Inglis manufactured pistol to me. Anyone else notice this?

i just always thought it was funny how they gave the 9mm highpower such a large bark in that scene....almost like they wanted it to sound like a .45

anyway i'm kinda on the fence on this one i say indy would probobly go either way but knowing the other weapons i would lean more twords the .45 on the fact of pure stopping power and like stated earlier if the revolvers were set for moons then hey thats one ammo to carry.

rebelgtp wrote:i just always thought it was funny how they gave the 9mm highpower such a large bark in that scene....almost like they wanted it to sound like a .45 .

Good point, the sound of the Hi-power is nearly indistinguishable from Indy's .45 S&W in the Raven Bar scenes.

You know, I find the whole "second gun" situation to be rather bizarre to begin with. Since the hero of the story is already heavily associated with a revolver as his sidearm, from the scenes in Peru and later when he's packing at home, why even have him break out a seperate gun? What was the point to it? Was the fact that Indy had to shoot more than six rounds (and thus be forced to reload his S&W) the deciding factor in giving him a semi-auto backup gun? The transition from revolver to semi-auto in the Raven scene happens out of nowhere. One minute he's got the S&W, the next minute he's got a Browning. I mean, if the prop guys used the browning as a stand in for the colt because of blanks, why even use a stand in at all? They obviously had blanks for the S&W, and that seems like it'd be far less troublesome to deal with when using blanks than ANY semi-auto.

???

-GCR

I guess Spielberg HAD to do something to make sure they didn't create a 'John Wayne' gun in the Napal gun battle. You know the one......fires at least 14 to 16 times without reloading. Wayne's guns were notorious for doing that in his Westerns.

You actually DO see Indy switch guns when he dives into the doorway and looks down. He then comes back out with the semi-auto, as he has fired his 6 from the Smith, and has no time to reload....hense the second gun, and it has 14 rounds in it's magazine!

Made perfect sense to me, and I saluted Spielberg when I saw it happen, as most directors just let the hero shoot and shoot and shoot, and tell the editor 'it doesn't matter. Folks don't count shots anyway.' Guess again.

As to the gunshot sounds, almost all of those were added in the edit, so be happy they didn't make his Browning sound like a Howitzer!

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson's point about Indy specifically changing guns and NOT reloading raises another perspective. While the Browning may have initially been a stand-in for the Colt, the Colt holds, I believe, only half the number of rounds of the Browning. Unless Indy was going to reload the pistol during the firefight, he needed to have a Browning in order to fire continually without reloading. If we assume Spielberg intentionally had him switch weapons so as NOT to end up with a "John Wayne" pistol scenario, then we have to assume he ALSO intended that Indy fire continually without reloading with the second gun.

Thus, it wasn't purely for prop reasons that Indy gets the Browning. It's a conscious choice from a director who knew that he COULD have had Indy reload a magazine in a matter of seconds or give him a "bottomless magazine" in his second gun (or imply a reload of screen), but instead chose to give him a weapon that could fire continually.

Thus, the choice was for the Browning. Not becuase it fires blanks easier, but because it lets you shoot longer without reloading -- something they already didn't want to have Indy do in the scene, while still making it look believable. So in the end, while its profile may be intended to evoke the notion of a .45 auto, Indy's weapon is, I think, supposed to be a Browning.

Now, as for the ease with which he'd acquire one in 1936 -- scarcely a year, I believe, after they've gone into production -- I think on THAT count the prop guys were playing fast and loose with history. It's already been pointed out that the Nazis are packing weapons inappropriate to their historical period. Heck, even one of the guys in the bar uses a P38 (the one who gets shot by Marion in the end of the scene). And they use MP38/40s throughout the film, AND Indy's packin' what looks like a Panzerfaust (although it isn't -- I have no idea what it is) at a time when no army in the world was (to my knowledge) using shaped charge weapons (Which incidentally wouldn't "blow up the ark" anyway -- just burn a big hole through it if it hit).

So, to some extent, I guess we just have to suspend disbelief and figure the prop guys weren't gearheads or to the extent they were, figured 98% of the viewing public wouldn't be (and they were right).


--EDIT--

Side note. Regarding Indy's familiarity with foreign weapons, we know he was at least familiar with 9mm parabellum ammunition based on a YIJC episode where he's seen carrying a Mauser C96 (with stock attached). This is the Dracula one, as I recall.

Of course we're more than likely giving them MUCH more credit that they deserve. The truth of the matter could have been on the day of the shoot the propmasters were asked what they had in the gun box that day. With that information received, they then asked how many blanks they had on hand.....and the one with the most ammo available was the one they handed Ford.

Fewer retakes, less reloading, and a shorter filming day.

Regards! Michaelson

Alot of you are overthinking this.

The sound effects in Raiders were meant to be as slightly over the top as the film itself. Do you think real punches sound like that? It's all to create character in the film by use of sound. If they used the real gunshots, it wouldn't have sounded as threatenening or dangerous. Same goes for the punches. Subconciously, you're thinking, 'OUCH!!', that's gotta hurt.

The automatic switching of the S&W to the Browning was a slip-up in the editing. Plain and simple, it was a product of movie making. Raiders was conceived and filmed in lightening speed. This is one of the reasons for so many bloopers, such as the wrong period weapons and things like the San Francisco bridge not being built yet. They simply were going for effect, not so much for accuracy and it's only now, 25 years later that we have the time to sit and analize all of it. You have to understand that the way they thought about making Raiders was to get something cool and comic-bookish on film, not to make it a historical or historically accurate movie.

Take the MP-40 for example. It hadn't been made yet in 1936, yet it was conciously chosen to be the weapon for the nazis in Raiders. From what I've read about how Raiders was conceived, I'd have to think Spielberg, Lucas and Co. just knew that the public recognized that weapon as the nazi weapon of choice for their soldiers back then and even if they knew it hadn't been invented yet in 1936 chose to do it soley on the audiences preception of it. They simply didn't care because it would be effective for the film and to them, that was the bottom line.

You have to think on a level of how films are made and not one of reality. Filmmaking and art in general grants you the ability to transform reality at your will. Raiders is no exception.

agent5 wrote: If they used the real gunshots, it wouldn't have sounded as threatenening or dangerous.
.

You ever been in a room when a large caliber handgun has gone off? I have. I couldn't hear ANYTHING for 2 days after that. Believe me, the sounds you hear in the movie are TAME in comparison to the real thing!!

regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:

agent5 wrote: If they used the real gunshots, it wouldn't have sounded as threatenening or dangerous.
.

You ever been in a room when a large caliber handgun has gone off? I have. I couldn't hear ANYTHING for 2 days after that. Believe me, the sounds you hear in the movie are TAME in comparison to the real thing!!

regards! Michaelson

I'll second this one, although in my case it wasn't "large caliber" by any stretch of the imagination. I had someone fire off a .22 LR pistol less than a foot away from my left ear while in an enclosed area about the size of an average garage. I had a ringing in that ear for quite a while after that and that was only a .22!

But again, I also recognize that the sounds of real world blanks don't have nearly the same effect when recorded on set as they do to the human ears in their proximity. Thus the reason for substituting a "better" gunshot sound later in post production (I believe Ben Burt said the "Indy Gunshot" was actually a .30-30 Winchester rifle, though I may be wrong). I also understand that the Indy films are meant to be a bit exaggerated and over-the-top, to invoke the classic adventure serials of the past. That's one of the reasons why I like them.

My issue is basically this: We know the film is supposed to be sort of "over the top", we know that the prop master did not adhere strictly to historical correctness when he armed the Nazis, as many used weapons that had not been issued by the German Armed Forces in 1936 or in many cases did not even exist in 1936. Knowing this, why then would someone decide to strive for realism by having Jones carry (and thus switch to) a higher capacity back-up gun in the midst of a shootout, when it would have been perfectly acceptable by over-the-top, adventure movie standards to have the main character fire away without reloading (or at least reload with incredibly exaggerated speed and ease)?

I'll give Spielberg, the prop guys, whoever, lots of credit if they actually wanted to convey firearms realism by having Jones simply switch weapons in the middle of a shootout instead of juggling half-moon clips of .45 ACP into his S&W. But I suspect Michaelson's theory as to why it was a Browning (as opposed to a Colt or something else) is probably the most likely scenario.

Alot of you are overthinking this.

I think (or maybe I overthink?) that you may be correct in that assesment.

But hey, ain't that part of the fun?

-GCR

But again, I also recognize that the sounds of real world blanks don't have nearly the same effect when recorded on set as they do to the human ears in their proximity.

This is what I meant. The blanks sound more like caps, then gunshots and you can hear it in the Making of Raiders. I did go to the range once and forgot my earplugs for the first clip. Needless to say, I put them in quickly and did have some ringing for a while. Yes, indoor gunfire can cause some serious hearing damage.

The blanks used in semi autos are a lot more powerful than those used the revolvers, as they still have to produce enough pressure when fired to cycle the slide and feed the next round.

I've heard revolver blanks, and they sound exactly like what agent5 says....cap guns with a little more smoke for effect. Semi auto blanks, though, boom pretty good as they're packing a LOT more powder.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote: You ever been in a room when a large caliber handgun has gone off? I have. I couldn't hear ANYTHING for 2 days after that. Believe me, the sounds you hear in the movie are TAME in comparison to the real thing!!

I fired a single 8mm blank (from a heater designed to look like a Colt 1911) in an alley last weekend and even shouting in the getaway car, we couldn't hear for two blocks. Then we just heard a ringing for a while. No one expected it to be anywhere near that loud.

That's what they make ear plugs for.

Regards! Michaelson

Live and learn.

Just watch movies where people shoot inside autos. Never a flinch.

In the golden age of Hollywood they didn't use blanks. They used live rounds in alot of old gangster films from the 20's and 30's.

Talk about a dangerous day at work.

Cagney was one who worked with prop masters who shot at him with a Tommy gun and live ammo.

They EARNED their money back then!!!

Regards! Michaelson

I may have to do that myself, as a replica bottle o' Belle of Lincoln ain't so inclined to bust via slingshot.

Pellet gun will do the trick.

Regards! Michaelson

not if a slingshot at 2 feet won't.

Depends on the pellet gun. Some of the high powered versions are used to hunt small game.

Regards! Michaelson

If it was meant to be a Colt all along, why even bother with the S&W as the primary weapon? Wouldn't one use the auto as the primary, and then carry extra mags? Its seems odd to use a revolver as primary and an auto as secondary if they are the same caliber.

However, by this rationale, given 9mm do not have the stopping power of a .45 it is very conceivable that the HP would be a suitable back-up to the S&W.

Don't the original concept drawings of Indy depict him with an automatic of some kind?

I think someone here uses that picture as his avatar...

A guy in a fedora, dark leather jacket, khaki clothes and wearing a G.I. web pistol belt, double magazine pouch, and .45.

Actually, in the Raven Bar scene, Indy is trying to reload the semi-auto at one point. You can see the slide locked back and he is holding another magazine. He is grabbed and choked, then the gun is fired by his large assailant, so I guess the reload was accomplished
Personally, I've always preferred the Colt. I tend to fudge a bit on screen accuracy for my Indy gear to make it more functional to me, so I substitute the Colt for the revolvers or Brownings on screen.

Ethics force me to acknowledge I am also a member of the 1911forum.com.

Pride compels me to boast I am from Utah, home of John M Browning, who invented the Hi-power and the 1911.

If any of you (who are firearms enthusiasts) happen to be near Ogden Utah, I would recommend checking out the Browning Firearms Museum.

Of course, BEING from Utah, we know you actually carry a 45-70. (grins)

Glad to have you aboard! You're absolutely correct on the reload observation. I always took it that the reload was a success, but he hadn't released the slide to rack the first round into the chamber.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:
You actually DO see Indy switch guns when he dives into the doorway and looks down. He then comes back out with the semi-auto, as he has fired his 6 from the Smith, and has no time to reload....hense the second gun, and it has 14 rounds in it's magazine!

You know, I'm pretty sure Indy winds up shooting the S&W and the BHP "out of sequence" due to the editing. What I mean is that in one shot he's shooting the S&W, then he's got the Browning in the next shot, and then the S&W again, and *THEN* you see him look down and reach down and come up with the Browning. It goes by pretty quick, but I'm pretty sure that happens at some point in the bar fight.