Club Obi Wan

Marc and I were talking on the phone a few days ago and he told me about talking to an old hatter in his neck of the woods. I think Marc brought up the topic of modern felt and tapering. My hypothesis on live felt versus dead felt seems to be valid. This old guy told Marc that it takes 5 to 8 years for live felt to age to the point that the taper issue is not a problem anymore. So, the good news is, both of our line of hats will truly get better with age. Since our felt is the good stuff, it will have no trouble making it to the magical age that felt needs to be in order to stop the taper issue. Good news indeed. I knew there was a reason for high quality modern felt tapering like it does. Back in the old days, most factories aged their felt, and this was done for an important reason. Nowadays, the hat industry is too concerned with getting the fur in and the felt out the doors quickly, for cash flow reasons I assume.

This old guy even told Marc some old hatmaking secrets that as far as we know, no one uses anymore. Now, that is the sort of info I live for. Will we share it with other hatters? Nope. I doubt they would use it anyways due to the time required in the procedures and the extra labor. It is a process that insures the hat looks good for years and years to come. A longevity and appearance facet.(works only on non western low stiffener hats) Marc made me promise to never tell, as he knows how big my mouth is. It will make the AB line better for the long haul and since durability is a big issue with us, a good thing to know. We really are striving to make our hats the best Indy fedoras available anywhere. With the help of old retired hatters that lived during the hat era, we are doing well in our endeavor to persevere. Fedora

What a wonderful posting. Years ago I always wondered why my grandfather's Borsalino NEVER changed shape after a soaking and my own Borsalino did. A posting like this tells me I am not going nuts.

At least not on this topic.

endeavor to persevere

Unh huh!

"the don't make 'em like they used to".........a good description towards the mass produced junk that saturate the marketplace these days (i.e. dorfman hats).

it is so nice to know that there are folks out there that not only believe that quality comes before price, they also take a page out of yester-year to further develop their products (and i though an AB was top notch already!).

Dakota Ellison wrote:

endeavor to persevere

Unh huh!

One of my favorite lines from Outlaw Josie Wales. (grins)

Regards! Michaelson

One of my favorite lines from Outlaw Josie Wales. (grins)

Mine too!! I knew you liked that line Michaelson and have to drop it occassionally. Fedora

Will we share it with other hatters? Nope.

To be honest, I didn't even want this info to me made public, but now that my buddy let the cat out of the sack, I can as well tell you (part) of what I did lately.

Basicly I had my own version of "Hat talk" with various people from all over Europe, that had been in the hat biz for decades. Some in hat factories, some in the supplier trade and others again being hatters who made hats ENTIRELY by hand (yes folks, I'm talking about hand felting the rawbody as well!!!).

I've learned very much on how felt "behaves" and why it does so and I MIGHT have found a way to "kill" the felt, which I discussed with the Gentlemen mentioned above and they told me that it could indeed work. So, I'm adding another 2 hours of labor on each hat from the new batch of rawbodies and if it's worth it or not... well that is something that we'll see in a couple of years I'm making one for myself as well and it will undergo the same treatment and then it'll undergo as much field testing as I can find time to. As I said, I would have preferred to tell this after the testing phase, but who knows, you might just get a dead felt AB-Dlx. for the same price now.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora wrote:

One of my favorite lines from Outlaw Josie Wales. (grins)

Mine too!! I knew you liked that line Michaelson and have to drop it occassionally. Fedora

Thank you, old friend!

Quick question, Marc, on/off topic.....are you still sourcing your felt from Cury, or is it another location?

Regards! Michaelson

To be honest, I didn't even want this info to me made public, but now that my buddy let the cat out of the sack, I can as well tell you (part) of what I did lately.

Well, like I said, I have a big mouth. Marc is a close to the vest sort of guy and you all know me by now!! What a partnership!!!! But, no techiques will be given out by me, so not to worry Marc. If I can keep a few customers name's secret to the public, I will have no problem with this. My main concern is I want the Indy gears folks to know we are not sitting on our laurels, and are constantly striving to provide a superiour hat. And, this hatter deal being what it is, traditionally, with each hatter having those "secrets" there is a fine line to walk. You want folks to know what you are doing, just no in depth details!!! But, I can assure you, neither me or Marc will ever made grandiose claims, as some do. Lies have a way of following you around, and you get no respect from other hatters who know better. And, we are under no illusion that what we are learning is not already known by established hatters, who by tradition, keep this stuff close to the vest. You want to hear deafening silence? Just listen in when one hatter asks another one how he is dealing with a particular problem!! I have deep personal experience on this. Most times, the silence is more helpful!! With that said, I must also say a few hatters are not that way, like John, but he seems to be the exception. I know one hatter who will tell you what to do, but you best not follow his advice. Not if you do not want to ruin a new hat body. I never experienced this in the cabinet business, and I don't know if that speaks to the character of cabinet makers versus hatters or not. Fedora

In Engineering theory, what you're talking about, Fedora, is 'the worth of perfect information'. If you KNOW the information being given to you is false or suspect, then you know to go in the opposite direction with what you're wanting to do. It's as useful as being told the truth in many decision making situation.

Regards! Michaelson

I find it very interesting and exciting to read about the qualities and characteristics of felt.
I have a question(s) about aged felt. The theory is it takes a certain number of years for a felt to "die". It then reaches the point where it no longer tapers. Does vintage felt succumb to taper if exposed to particular weather conditions? Is vintage taper less an issue because of the age?

One of the nice things about vintage hats is they seem to be almost impervious to taper. The easy conclusion was, the older felt was made differently, or better and this was the reason. That made sense to me, until I started to talk to the folks that actually made the felt. The fact of the matter is this. In order to make a hat, or size a body at a felt factory, the felt has to be able to shrink. Shrinkage is an essential element in sizing the bodies at the factory. Shrinkage is an essential element in making a hat. But, once felt ages, it loses its ability to shink, not completely, but it loses much of the ability. I noticed this years ago when trying to shrink a vintage hat down to fit me. I could not do it. Fedora

Thank you for that information.
If you have really discovered a way of "killing" felt, it will make the AB an even better product!
The more I wear my AB the better it seems to fit. I think the quality and construction is outstanding.
You and Marc are doing an impressive job with the AB line.

If you have really discovered a way of "killing" felt, it will make the AB an even better product!

Of course, felt has a natural cycle to lose the liveness, we just want to speed it up somewhat, as long as the treatment is not detrimental to the felt. We have top men working on it. Fedora

Hi Guys!!

It's been awhile, since I posted. Been doing some schooling.

It's good to hear there are still some old Hatters, still around from the Good ole days. Alot of the information they have, if you can pick their brain, is golden. Every bit you can recieve, is another piece of the puzzle.
My 1920's Beaver Mercury Felt. It does not shrink. I have gotten it soaked in the rain on several occasions. I wear it every day, since the middle of Sept., until the summer months.
Well, you all have a Great Day!!

IndianaWill

I will be receiving the 1st of the AB Deluxes Marc is making with the new rawbodies and Special Treatment sometime next week and could not be more exited about it.

I will be VERY interested in reading your review!

Regards! Michaelson

I'm very happy to be the next in line, receiving an AB Deluxe with Marc's super new bodies and this new aging process as well!

maybe , maybe not?????

Heck, one of these days I will own one too. Can't wait!!! This new special run of felt sounds great when Marc and I discussed it on the phone. I think it may be some real special stuff, plus, no other hatter has it!!! You guys know how Marc is. Can you imagine what the special runs guy thought when Marc was telling him how he wanted the felt made? His hats are truly Deluxe ABs. Fedora

Michaelson asked:

Quick question, Marc, on/off topic.....are you still sourcing your felt from Cury, or is it another location?

Never have, never will! Fedora and I have been discussing the samples he received from Cury (back then) at LENGTH and their quality doesn't even come close to anything either one of us would consider using for our hats. Whether they DID supply HJ with felt for the movies or not, is not of my interest, as when Fedora says the felt is no good, than it's no good.

Reason I didn't want this information to be made public, is that competitors of Adventurebilt Hats could use this information for false claims and thereby making sales on people who believe in the hype. Even though lies have a way of following you around, I have fallen for false claims in the past myself. So has Steve. And it was VERY expensive for us to learn that lesson. That is why I want to keep some things close to the vest. Even though people here at Indygear have a FAR superior understanding of felt hats than the avarage Joe, I guess most of us would jump on a claim such as pre-aged felt. I know I would, if I wouldn't make my own hats. I'm pre-aging all of my hats now. With a technique, that I've been discussing with some old timers and which was considered to work. Being a member of this forum for quite some years by now and being an Indy fan myself, I can give you my word, that this ain't any sales hype to push my sales and the people who know me, will take my word for that. Others again, might realize that such a claim might turn out a big deal of orders within a short period and once the years are gone and the claims proved to be false, they're gone for good or nobody give a #### anymore (now, before you point at me and tell me to stop trashing vendor XYZ: I didn't mean any certain vendor, but was talking in general. So don't make this an AB vs. XYZ thing).

As a matter of fact, yes, we're working on it and there hasn't been a month since I started my department of Adventurebilt Hats, in which I haven't been trying figure out either one or the other finer aspect that goes into making hats.

Shrinkage is an essential element in making a hat.

Right. I saw how Resistol make their hats the other day (on TV). The first cone is shrunk over 2/3(!) of it's original size. And while I'm ad it:

Resistol is made at Hat Co. They make everything incl. the rawbodies at the factory. The price go from 200$ and up to 2000$ with the avarage price being 450$ for a hat containing 20% beaver (now guess what the 100% beaver costs... and yes, it's machine made). To train a new employee to be a hatter at Resistol, it takes 60 days. Again: guess how many YEARS it took Steve and me to get where we are now.

My 1920's Beaver Mercury Felt. It does not shrink. I have gotten it soaked in the rain on several occasions. I wear it every day, since the middle of Sept., until the summer months.

Same with mine and that's why I thought that the taper resistance would be due to the mercury nitrate treatment on vintage hats. Well, I can tell you that much: it's not

You guys know how Marc is. Can you imagine what the special runs guy thought when Marc was telling him how he wanted the felt made?

Yeah and I figure my felter knows me as well by now... I honestly believe that he found me to be annoying to start with (politely said), but now that I'm able to discuss the finer details with him, his replies are getting longer and more detailed, so I seem to be on the right track

Regards,

Marc

With a technique, that I've been discussing with some old timers and which was considered to work. Being a member of this forum for quite some years by now and being an Indy fan myself, I can give you my word, that this ain't any sales hype to push my sales and the people who know me, will take my word for that.

May it be known that these techniques will be used by the both of us, on our hats. I feel rather odd even saying this, because it indeed can be seen as hype. But, after learning this from the old hatter that was kind enough to share with Marc, if it does work, there will be many happy Indy fedora wearers out there. The downside is more time is involved!!! Not good for the customers. The theory of what the old hatter told Marc makes sense. Whether or not it works remains to be seen. But, this process has an added benefit that makes it very desirable, even if it does not prematurely age the felt. If for no other reason than this, it is worth the extra time. I can't go into what that extra benefit is, for obvious reasons. (Marc has verified that it works!!!) But, it is something that neither one of us knew how to address, completely. It seems now we may have a handle on this. We shall see. Fedora

Marc wrote:Michaelson asked:

Quick question, Marc, on/off topic.....are you still sourcing your felt from Cury, or is it another location?

Never have, never will! Fedora and I have been discussing the samples he received from Cury (back then) at LENGTH and their quality doesn't even come close to anything either one of us would consider using for our hats. Whether they DID supply HJ with felt for the movies or not, is not of my interest, as when Fedora says the felt is no good, than it's no good.

Reason I didn't want this information to be made public, is that competitors of Adventurebilt Hats could use this information for false claims and thereby making sales on people who believe in the hype. Even though lies have a way of following you around, I have fallen for false claims in the past myself. So has Steve. And it was VERY expensive for us to learn that lesson. That is why I want to keep some things close to the vest. Even though people here at Indygear have a FAR superior understanding of felt hats than the avarage Joe, I guess most of us would jump on a claim such as pre-aged felt. I know I would, if I wouldn't make my own hats. I'm pre-aging all of my hats now. With a technique, that I've been discussing with some old timers and which was considered to work. Being a member of this forum for quite some years by now and being an Indy fan myself, I can give you my word, that this ain't any sales hype to push my sales and the people who know me, will take my word for that. Others again, might realize that such a claim might turn out a big deal of orders within a short period and once the years are gone and the claims proved to be false, they're gone for good or nobody give a #### anymore (now, before you point at me and tell me to stop trashing vendor XYZ: I didn't mean any certain vendor, but was talking in general. So don't make this an AB vs. XYZ thing).

As a matter of fact, yes, we're working on it and there hasn't been a month since I started my department of Adventurebilt Hats, in which I haven't been trying figure out either one or the other finer aspect that goes into making hats.

[Regards,

Marc

A simple 'no' would have been fine.

Regards!! Michaelson

A simple 'no' would have been fine.

I think he has talked to me too many times on the phone!!! I may be a bad infuence on him. But, you know how us Southern guys are. You ask us which way is north, and before we finish talking, you know our life's story, complete with tall tales and fishing stories. We are getting more sophisticated though, as we now have expresso with our grits!! Fedora

Tell me about it. I just spent a week in Wyoming, and the Westerners have little to say, but when they talk, it's condensed into a single line...and all the info there.

Oh, by the way, the 'Abner' AB performed to perfection in high wind, heavy snow and rain, cold and sun, and feels more and more like my vintage Borsolino everyday.

Regards! Michaelson

You bake it at 350 for 24 hours? I sure would like to know how to make my HJ's last longer. This is like "I've Got A Secret". Sorry.

It's here and it's Beautiful.

you B****d.

G-MANN wrote:It's here and it's Beautiful.

;0

Regards! Michaelson

Here you go:





...but I'm drifting off topic here.

Regards,

Marc

marc, was that felt aged?

Ahh, good way to get the curve back on topic. Thanks Oak!

YES, that felt has been aged artificially.

You bake it at 350 for 24 hours? I sure would like to know how to make my HJ's last longer. This is like "I've Got A Secret". Sorry.

I know where you're comming from Dakota. But that is pretty much the only way to announce that we have improved our techniques, without letting other hatters participate...

Regards,

Marc

Hummm...from using a hot water method to artifically age the jacket, to now baking our fedoras....we've come a long way in preparing some pretty tasty treats with our gear now, haven't we?

That hat looks great, Marc! Who's the ugly guy wearing it?

You received a REAL treasure there, G-MANN!

Regards! Michaelson

Who's the ugly guy wearing it?

It's Barry White.

Dang, thats a great looking AB. I like the shape, bashing, proportions - everything.

Here it is after a little work on the brim.



Cheers,
G-MANN

....Dull would he be of soul who could pass by a sight so touching in its majesty!

Deep thought there, Mark!

G-MANN, the closest thing I can come up with in comparison is my 'Ford felt' Abner AB that Steve made me. That's as close to vintage mercury felted beaver as one can get. Yours is a dead ringer to mine in appearance now. Beautiful!

Regards! Michaelson

What is the head size and brim porportions of this AB? Looks PERFECTO Raiders. I keep doing a double take.

Michaelson,

This is another excellent job Marc has accomplished. His work gets better every time. Now I just have to beat the heck out of this one and see how it holds up.


The hat size is 7-1/8 (22-1/2") with a 5/3/4" crown. I think the brim is 2-7/8 front and back 2-5/8 sides.

Cheers,
G-MANN

Well, if it's as good in the 'flesh' as it appears in the photos.....a home run in my opinion!!

Regards! Michaelson

This is another excellent job Marc has accomplished. His work gets better every time. Now I just have to beat the heck out of this one and see how it holds up.

From our phone conversations, Marc is really happy with this new felt he is having specially made for his hats. The factory water proofing added during the felting is what I am charged up about. This should make these felt hats great rain hats as the treatment is not a topical one as most aftermarket treatments are. Marc is taking this to the next level, and truly offers a deluxe version of the AB line. I am so proud to have him doing the brand justice and sourcing the best of the best to use in this line. I am like a proud father, and comparing my age to his, I am old enough to be his father. When I hang up the hatter's tools, there will be another fan here, ready to step in and keep the regular line going. I hope the AB line will be around as long as Indy fans are around. Fedora

Thanks, G Mann! Sounds great. I have the same proportions here on a 7 5/8 hat and it looks top notch.

Thanks everybody! The compliments are HIGHLY appreciated and after all, that's what keeps me going.

John my friend, you're honering me with the way you styled that hat! It looks AWESOME on you

I am like a proud father, and comparing my age to his, I am old enough to be his father.

I prefer the older brother version, but thanks a lot. I know how you mean it my friend.

Ok, I'm off to dry my tears (this hobby is becomming WAY too touchy... ).

Yours,

Marc

Gday Steve
we need to talk
hope you get this
Thanks
Sam

viewtopic.php?t=19469

Michaelson wrote:

Deep thought there, Mark!

G-MANN, the closest thing I can come up with in comparison is my 'Ford felt' Abner AB that Steve made me.
Regards! Michaelson

Grrrrrrr!! :evil: :evil: How do you know if Abner even wore a fedora?! We know FEDORA wore a fedora....

Even Fedora called it 'Fedoras fedora' to begin with..

You have got to get off this Abner fixation you have with Fedora, Michaelson. I know it's hard, but really, it's just a case of mistaken identity. It's alright, dude,,it happens to the best of us.

TR

Texas Raider wrote:

Even Fedora called it 'Fedoras fedora' to begin with..

..so Steve's 'Abner' hat should really be called-'Fedora's,Fedora,fedora'?!

Heeheehee. I've found TR's Achelles' heel!!

ABNER ABNER ABNER!!!

See, TR's eyes get red, and the hairs on the back of his neck rise!

I LOVE it!!!

Sorry, 'dude', I'll call my hat whatever I want, as I've said in past discussions. You all can refer to the character any way YOU want.

Regards! Michaelson

I love the idea of that character actually being Abner. That would have kept the character in the loop. He would have given Indy his first hat, that set the stage for what Indy would wear. Then Indy later would have gotten on his badside by foolin' around with his underage daughter. Touche!! (he truly was a scoundrel!!) Nice and tidy nuance of plot there. Do we know for sure that this character was not Abner? Fedora

Fedora, that's TR's point. There is no proof, and therefore he doesn't want me to refer to this gear as 'Abner' gear, as he believes it will do nothing but confuse the issue for new members. Correct me if I'm wrong, TR.

Me, on the other hand, was fortunate to have been given background information by the writer at the time, and choose to refer to MY gear by this name.

So, it's all matter of what one decides is 'correct'. I choose to call my gear 'Abner' gear, and have stated that on more than one occasion, as I do have my own personal reasons for doing so.

Call it what you want. I have no plans on changing my practice, as it's my own preference. TR says it's something I'm 'fixated' over. I guess I need to review the definition of that word. It's just what I choose to do for my own legitimate reasons with my own personal property, and see no reason to change my practice. So sue me.

As a side observation....I have YET to read anyone jumping up and down like this when the diamond that Lao Che got back from Indy in Temple of Doom was assumed to be the Peacock's Eye that Indy lost in the YIJC program. There has not been one SHREAD of evidence to show this connection, but it has LONG been accepted as being 'canon' because someone made this assumption. What's the big deal about this possibility of Fedora being Abner scenario...especially when that's who he WAS called through the entire script development, up until the last approved draft was penned and handed to the actors?

Anyway, we're getting WAY off the track here....

Carry on.

Regards! Michaelson

darthjones wrote:What a wonderful posting. Years ago I always wondered why my grandfather's Borsalino NEVER changed shape after a soaking and my own Borsalino did. A posting like this tells me I am not going nuts.

At least not on this topic.

Funny you should mention that; I swear someone posted in this section several months back about a claim that Borsalino used to pre-age their felt somehow; I remember Fedora saying that they would have to have lots of blocks and storage rooms to keep all of these hats sitting around aging...or maybe I'm going nuts too 8-[

In any case I love these little bits of lore and refinements of technique that the old master craftsmen never wrote down and only passed down to their apprentices. I work in a field where I see that periodically too, and it gives you a very strange feeling to receive exclusive information like that


A question sirs; in a few years when I send my current AB in for a reblock, could it get the Secret Treatment, or is this something you can only do when you first make the hat?

Regards,

Antone