Seaplane/steps hat, gray or brown? That is the question.

[Bufflehead Jones]

We have all seen the arguments both pro and con about the Pan Am Clipper hat and the hat from the steps scene at the end of Raiders. I don't think that I have seen a topic debated as much as the color of this hat, in quite awhile. I don't mean to start any kind of war between the gray and brown camps, and I don't think that will happen. Most of our conversations on this topic have been quite civil lately. Let's hope it stays that way.

I think everyone knows that I am in the gray camp. This is just a simple poll to see how other folks view the color of the hat. I am just curious as to the results, that's all. Gray/grey and brown are the only two choices you have in the poll. Green is not an option.

[VP]

It was grey/gray.

[Kt Templar]

I won't add any fuel to the fire. But I have cast my vote.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Yeah, KT. I hope there are no combustible materials around here to start a fire. I don't think there will be. Like I said, we have been discusing this in a very civil manner lately, and I hope that will continue with this poll.

I know a few folks on this forum that I have met in person. I am aware about how my friends feel about this, wether they agree with me or not. But, it is a little hard for me to keep up with everybody here on COW. Just out of personal curiosity and nothing more, I wanted to know which color folkes feel the hat is, if they care to vote in the poll.

[Last Crusader]

I trust my eyes and say it´s a grey/gray fedora.

[Serial Hero]

Brown

[IndyBlues]

This is a cool idea, now we just have to hope every member will vote with their decision. Even if you are not certain, you should pick your best guess. If there is a tie, Buff and I will enter "Cow-dome", and battle it out to the death.

"We don't need another flame war,..we just want to know the colour.
All we want is felt beyo-ond, Cow-dome"

'Blues

[SkyChief]

Grey.

Because that's what my eyes have seen on Beta, VHS, the big screen, and now DVD. And also because of the sheer fact that the "Life Magazine Nazi" is wearing a clearly brown hat in the same lighting, scene, set, etc.

I haven't really been following this "debate," so I'm not sure what kind of a brown people are seeing. Are people saying the hat Indy wears on the Clipper and in Washington is the same brown that his "adventure" hat is, or are they saying it's a light brown? If the argument is that the Clipper/Washington hat is the same brown as the adventure hat, then I see no argument, it's literally impossible. How could the hat look brown for the entire movie except when he's in a suit?

Hopefully people are just arguing that it's a light brown.

[IndyBlues]

Light brown
'Blues


Edited to add this pic:

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=851lk4.jpg

This picture is kind of like the color I see onscreen,....it's kind of brown,...and kind of grey. The description is chocolate brown.

[Michaelson]

A prefect match to the AB 'gray' that Steve offers.

Regards! Michaelson

[s7eng]

To me it looks gray. I understand the argument for brown (i.e. only one hat), but for years I have thought in those sceens it looks gray.

[Mulceber]

I think its brown. It looks grey to my eyes, but every authority I've heard of said it was brown, so I'm gonna assume that some camera trick or optical illusion made it appear grey. So from my point of view, grey is screen accurate, brown is prop accurate. :junior: -IJ

[Bufflehead Jones]

Chocolate brown? C'mon Blues, would you eat a Hershey bar that was that color?

And, why did you volunteer me for a fight to the death? I hate when that happens. Can't I just come up to your place and we could discuss it over a REAL Philly cheesesteak? I want to go to that place with the cheesey fries that are like hot molten magma. That's it! A battle over hot molten magma cheesey fries. It'll make COW history.

IndianaJones, for folks that feel the way that you do, that the hat is brown, but appears gray, I don't know which way you should vote. It seems that you really think it is gray, but you believe it to be brown from what you have heard or read. That is very interesting. If you don't mind telling us, how did you vote and why?

[Doug C]

I voted grey.

But someone brought up a good point..does anyone believe the seaplane hat AND his adventure hat to be one in the same? I say absolutely not, and if not then why go to the trouble of light tricks..just get him a grey hat or borrow the grey hat off the Nazi in the SOC scene that they already had.

Edited to add: Someone in the big debate thread mentioned that the hat was called "Sand Grey" or something like that and that's a descriptive name for what I actually see the hat as. Basically Grey but the word "Sand" obviously adds a slight brown to the description. That's my last word on the subject (again.. )

Doug C

[prairiejones]

To my eyes, the hat looks gray. Believe me, I wish it looked brown, then I wouldn't want another hat.

[Bufflehead Jones]

Light brown
'Blues


Edited to add this pic:

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=851lk4.jpg

This picture is kind of like the color I see onscreen,....it's kind of brown,...and kind of grey. The description is chocolate brown.

Hey Blues, I think some people are saying that it is his regular brown hat that he wears during the rest of the movie. The colors are running all over the spectrum. That's why I said green was not an option. If I would have put it up there, I am sure that someone would have voted for it. Probably Indiana Tone.

[IndyBlues]

And, why did you volunteer me for a fight to the death? I hate when that happens. Can't I just come up to your place and we could discuss it over a REAL Philly cheesesteak? I want to go to that place with the cheesey fries that are like hot molten magma. That's it! A battle over hot molten magma cheesey fries. It'll make COW history.

It's a deal!! Sounds like an old cigarette ad

"I'd rather eat Magma Cheese Fries, than quit"
'Blues

[Bufflehead Jones]

Hey, if my new seaplane gray AB needs to have the bash adjusted, I could just do it over the steam from the cheese fries. I just hope it turns out better than when I tried pecan pie a la mode.

[Mulceber]

I ended up voting brown, because (I believe) that's what the hat really was, regardless of how it appeared. :junior: -IJ

[Bufflehead Jones]

Maybe I should explain for the folks that don't know. I have known 'Blues for quite awhile, and we actually met for the first time at an IndyGear summit in Gettysburg, Pa.

We were eating lunch in a very Indy/Raven bar type of setting, next to a huge stone fireplace. We had placed most of our fedoras up on the fireplace mantle.

We had finished with the meal and we were having desert. I had ordered pecan pie a la mode. The waitress never asked me if I wanted it heated, which I did not, as I prefer it cold with vanilla ice cream on it.

I was talking a lot, which is normal for me, when the waitress brought the desert. I hadn't noticed that the pie was hot, due to the dim lighting in the restaurant which added to it's warm cozy atmosphere.

Unaware to me, the waitress had heated the pie, and now in retrospect, I think she made a mistake and heated it far too much. Maybe it had been heated twice the normal amount by accident.

I had totally failed to notice the hot steam coming off of the pie. It was too dark to notice that the pie was so hot, that it had flash fried the ice cream. I took a big bite in mid conversation.

It was so hot, that steel can actually be welded at this temperature. There was no way to be polite and deal with the situation. It was life or death, now. I had no choice but to spit out that bite of pie. It was quite a shock to the gearheads, but they immediately realized the problem. I resembled Indy after he stops the mine cart in ToD and says, "Water! Water!"

But, in this instance, there was no water. The only liquid in my vicinity, was my hot coffee. I grabbed my cup and swallowed it down. The pie was sooooooooo hot, that even hot coffee supplied a cooling relief.

As I started regaining my composure and realized that my life had been spared, I noticed all the gearheads looking in my direction. I lowered my head down, and started looking at the steam coming off of the pie like Indy looking at the gold idol before he replaced it with the sandbag, and I said, "Quick, hand me my hat. I have to adjust the bash while I still have steam!" The entire table of gearheads burst out laughing.

[McFly]

Great storry, Buff! lol

(I voted!)

In Christ,
Shane

[Chewbacca Jones]

You know, the more I look at it, the more I become convinced that it is neither brown nor gray in both the sea plane and on the steps. It reminds me of a stetson I have which is "bark" in color. "Bark" is litterally light brown-gray. If I wear it with something black, it looks gray. If I wear it with something brown, it looks brown. If I wear it with something gray... yuck! It looks like some alien color never seen on earth before because the ribbon does not go with gray. But ribbon issue aside, I'd say the bark or sand gray arguement can be made. I will even go as far to say that the gray sample I got from Steve seemed to have a touch of brown to it, so it's no wonder we find his version "screen accurate" to those scenes.

But, for the sake of the poll... since bark is both (and sand gray is, too) but I can only choose one, I will base it on Steve's "slightly brownish gray" being called Gray.
Chewie

[Bufflehead Jones]

Great storry, Buff! lol

(I voted!)

In Christ,
Shane

Thanks Shane. Did you like that one as good as or not as good as the one about the pack hunting ground hogs?

[Kit Walker]

Since the first time I saw Raiders in the summer of 81 I have always viewed that hat as grey. I have "listened" to the arguments on both sides and I have to say after hearing all the experts and opinions to me the hat is and always shall be grey.

[Kt Templar]

People seem to have a sliding scale between "grey and brown" if it was graduated 1 to 10 with German Spy as 1 and Cairo as 10. I put the seplane one at 1.5. Deep into the grey territory. (Pantone Warm Grey 9U )

[Alabama Jones]

Since the first time I saw Raiders in the summer of 81 I have always viewed that hat as grey. I have "listened" to the arguments on both sides and I have to say after hearing all the experts and opinions to me the hat is and always shall be grey.

Yep, what he said.

grey.

[BendingOak]

I can go either way on this one. I see grey but it does have some brown in it. Grey hat would go well with navy suit. Brown hat would o well wih his light bown coat he was caring.

I voted grey.

[McFly]

Thanks Shane. Did you like that one as good as or not as good as the one about the pack hunting ground hogs?

You mean the gophers? I think I liked this one a little bit more, just because of the situation. I had a fun time imagining you in mid conversation and putting molten pie into your mouth, lol. The look on your face must have been similar to

lol

I'll get to hear more stories at the QM this year though, right? *nudge, nudge*

In Christ,
Shane

[Canyon]

Actually, I'm not going to vote on either, as I have a theory.

I believe that the hat was actually a cross between brown and grey...

[Bufflehead Jones]

I was going to say something about women not being able to make up their mind, but I didn't want Canyon to bang me over the head with her Marion frying pan when she gets to the Finger Lakes Summit.

That's okay. Mrs. Bufflehead is sitting behind me on her computer and she saw what I was typing and banged me over the head. Ouch! I hate when that happens.

[Last Crusader]

The lower four colored squares are the colors/shades PS extracted out of the seaplane fedora. On the right there is a fading from light grey/gray to an average brown I extracted from several shots of the brown fedora. You can see the original picture of the seaplane fedora in the middle.
Compare yourself:

[Serial Hero]

This thread is about to get ugly isn't it?

The problem I have with the whole thing is that the “proof” for every ones argument for a gray hat is screen grabs (some of poor quality) of the hat looking gray, and an old photo of questionable scan quality.

All of the screen grabs ever posted are from the top of the stairs, or walking in the darkest part of the cabin.

Could someone post some of the frames from where Indy is just inside the plane, at the bottom of the staires, with the light from the window shining on the hat?

Sorry, I’m not technologically savvy enough to do this so my “brown” argument is always hurt by no “proof”.

[Last Crusader]

In the pic I used you see the lightest environment in which the grey fedora appeares.
BTW the intensity of light does not change the color of an object. It just changes the shade. But it has no effect on the basic color. So it does not matter if the hat is seen in sunlight or in shadow.

[doc riviere]

sand grey

[Serial Hero]

In the pic I used you see the lightest environment in which the grey fedora appeares.
BTW the intensity of light does not change the color of an object. It just changes the shade. But it has no effect on the basic color. So it does not matter if the hat is seen in sunlight or in shadow.

If you watch Indy walk up the stairs frame by frame you can actually see the hat appear to change from brown to grey.

[Bufflehead Jones]

This thread is about to get ugly isn't it?

I certainly hope not. We are just discussing the color of a hat.

[Fedora]

This thread is about to get ugly isn't it?

I dunno. So far so good. Or was this a warning?

If you watch Indy walk up the stairs frame by frame you can actually see the hat appear to change from brown to grey.

I just watched it. I can't see it change. It just seems to me we should be seeing his brown hat change to gray, at least in other portions in the film. If while in the WOS, we saw a color shift, or even the temple scene, I would say the lighting affected the color. We only see it on the plane, and of course in that photo of him and the lady outside the plane. Oh, and of course at the end of the film, on the steps. I find it strange that the guy passing Indy and Marion on the steps is wearng a brown hat, while Indy's still looks.........er, other than brown. Both times the hat looks to be gray, Indy is wearing a blue suit coat. I find that rather odd. Why doesn't the hat ever appear to be gray when he is in his adventure duds? The logical answer is, the costumer, or someone color cooridnated the clothing. Is it that far fetched to think so? I understand the brown fedora is his trademark hat, but remember, the hat had not obtained such a position-yet. The other two films show him in only brown, but at least in the LC, his jacket matched the hat. Fedora

[Tycoonman]

I also see a black band on the hat. Since when did the hat have a black band? It's defenitley not the same hat, if that is the case.

Tycoonman

[Fedoraman]

Do you guys realize you are on the verge of becomming as crazy-obsessed as the Star Trek crowd???

I'll bet most of you didn't know that in the first two seasons of TOS - ALL of Kirk's tunic/shirts were green - not just the wrap-around and the dress uniform, but the ones that appear gold. The lighting and film used brought out the gold undertones of the green fabric type used for the "regular" shirts.

After discovering this, I am of a mind that there were no grey/gray hats in Raiders. However, since the hat appears grey/gray - it seems to me that some post-production work could have been done to change the way the "browns" in that scene appear on the screen.

With this in mind, it is really up to the individual to decide wether or not be screen-accurate or production-accurate.

I vote for screen-accurate as this is the perception that was intended and most people will recognize - that is what we are all after isn't it? To be mistaken for Indiana Jones right fellow fan-boys?

Therefore, your question should read - what was the intent of the filmstock after post production - Brown or Gray/Grey?

Regardarino's Fellow Fan-boys,

Fed-man

[agent5]

And also because of the sheer fact that the "Life Magazine Nazi" is wearing a clearly brown hat in the same lighting, scene, set, etc.

Actually nobody can go by this because that shot is a completely different set-up, even if it is on the same plane. They'd have to replant the camera and all the lights and filters just to do a 3 second scene like that so there is no solid way to confirm that theory one way or another. I think this is the main reason nonoe of us can get anywhere with this.

[Alabama Jones]

Both times the hat looks to be gray, Indy is wearing a blue suit coat. I find that rather odd. Why doesn't the hat ever appear to be gray when he is in his adventure duds? The logical answer is, the costumer, or someone color cooridnated the clothing. Is it that far fetched to think so?

Nope, just like its not, far-fetched to believe Indy would have a "dress hat" to go with that snappy, navy blue-suit, and that said hat *might* be a different color, than his adventure one. In fact, I always thought (and still do) that the College/Donovan/Venice Pier hat was a "dress hat" (though clearly brown ) and not meant to be the same hat as his adventure hat.

[Puppetboy]

Good point. I haven't said anything in this debate yet, but it is truly intriguing and there's no reason to get angry.

A couple of points:

1) those who say "brown" don't necessarily mean the same brown as his hero hat. When it comes down to it, how many really think it is the same color as his hero hat? Maybe the question shouldn't be the name of the color, but is it the same hat?

2) Can color alteration really cause the results we see on film in those two scenes? I'm open minded to the possibility. True, the sea plane has odd lighting and washed-out color. Ford's very dark tan skin shows up as pale in the scenes with the alleged gray hat. Can someone use photoshop to restore the color to that scene and show the true color of the hat?

I've tried to change the color in photoshop to make the hat look more brown, but my photoshop skills just aren't there. Can someone restore some of these posted screen caps (adjust the color of the whole shot, not just the hat) to show the hat as chocolate/sable brown? For me, that would go a long way in convincing me that the gray appearance is a trick of light/film stock/transfer/processing/monitor.

[BendingOak]

Nope, just like its not, far-fetched to believe Indy would have a "dress hat" to go with that snappy, navy blue-suit,

Or could it be that he matched up his brown hat with his overcoat/trenchcoat ( light brown)?

[binkmeisterRick]

And also because of the sheer fact that the "Life Magazine Nazi" is wearing a clearly brown hat in the same lighting, scene, set, etc.

Actually nobody can go by this because that shot is a completely different set-up, even if it is on the same plane. They'd have to replant the camera and all the lights and filters just to do a 3 second scene like that so there is no solid way to confirm that theory one way or another. I think this is the main reason nonoe of us can get anywhere with this.

True, but I remember watching the changes of the spy's hat when seen in the same light as Indy's hat. When boarding the plane and while Indy is settling in his seat, you can see both Indy AND the spy and the spy's hat is clearly a different color than Indy's hat. To my eyes, it responds differently in the SAME light as Indy's fedora.

Wait a minute... If it's been stated before that they probably used a hero hat for the spy on the Clipper and you can see both Indy AND the spy in some of the same shots, that means there are TWO different Indy hats used in this scene! Naturally, it would make sense to use the same hat for the spy throughout this scene. If the hat Ford wears is one of the same hero hats worn throughout much of the film, and the spy is ALSO wearing a hero hat (or stunt hat, which should be the same color as the hero hat) then both Ford's hat and the spy's hat should be the same color.

Again, both hats can be seen together reacting to the same light, but to me, they respond differently and look like different hats altogether. Indy's hat does the brown/grey thing while the spy hat appears to stay decidedly brown to me. It makes sense to me, then, that the hat Ford wears is indeed a different color than the spy/hero hat. This said, I believe Ford's hat on the Clipper is different than the usual hero/Indy fedora.

Now, was this hat in question actually grey? Like IndyBlues, I've seen hats (and own one) which react like the hat in question. Depending on the light, it can look more brown or more grey. What's the actual color? My hat is actually a mouse brown, but a lighter by far than my Indy fedoras. The Clipper/Stair hat may indeed be brown, but I feel it probably sits on the fence between brown and grey. Regardless, I believe it is a different color (lighter brown or a brownish grey) than the typical hero hat worn through much of the film.

[BendingOak]

Like I said before, I could go either way on this.

take a look at these pics of my brown and grey Adventurebilts.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01455.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01454.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/j ... C01453.jpg

Does anyone one else see Indy's light brown coat that he is caring or did i make that up?

[Kt Templar]

The second shot is so yellow because you have a tungsten light on causing the yellow tint. And it hasn't been compensated by a "blue" flash They would definately compensate for that on set.

The other two shotd are exactly what we have seen before, grey hats with a warm tinge. Mousey™.

[binkmeisterRick]

The other two shotd are exactly what we have seen before, grey hats with a warm tinge. Mousey™.

So this particular hat wasn't rabbit, but mouse felt?

[Indiana Blooze]

I vote for brown because I don't have enough money to get a grey AB. I've already got an AB Deluxe, an AB on order, and I'm lusting over the Abner hat. Ack!!! My wife would kill me if I got another hat

Oh yeah, I've got a well weathered and used, (it would make Michaelson proud), PB. I t was very brown when I got it. Now depending on the lighting, in particular overcast days, diffused light, and shadows, it takes on a greyish hue. In more normal lighting, it is brown, and shows no hint of gray. Could it be that Indy's hat was well distressed and slightly faded, while the agent's hat had relatively little distressing done to it?

Thanks to my PB and my new bi-focal contact lenses, I see brown on the DVD, that kind of shifts toward gray/grey.

[BendingOak]

Does anyone one else see Indy's light brown coat that he is caring or did i make that up?

[Bufflehead Jones]

The other two shotd are exactly what we have seen before, grey hats with a warm tinge. Mousey™.

So this particular hat wasn't rabbit, but mouse felt?

bink, I knew you would bring this up and want to post pics of that 100% mouse felt fedora you got at Disney. But, I still think it would look a lot better if it didn't have those big ears sticking out of it. It really doesn't matter that you put a DP Indiana Jones pin on it, it doesn't help.