Club Obi Wan

Since the new Club Obi-Wan started in July 2002, none of the oldy but goody posts survived from the previous version of COW that ran on xsorbit. Well I decided to repost this topic I posted earlier this year, documenting the "Raiders Whip". The older members requested this post several times, as well as some of the new members hear mention of it here sometimes and there are a few pictures that are posted at the main Indygear site. This article will appear as text to the posted pictures at the main site. Look for it there.



- "My Tale and Pictures"



« Originally posted on: April 5th, 2002, 6:17pm »

It's South America 1936.... <Darn I believe that intro line has been used, I wonder how it got into my subconscious?>

Ahmmm... Geesh.. Writer's block is at it again.....

Ok, back to topic. Ah, yes, Raiders Whip <"Raider's March" begins in background...>!

Well, it's time to tell the story. Last Fall of 2001, I was in Las Vegas to meet with Mark Allen for a whip lesson and "getting to know each other" session. After the lesson, we walked over to the famous "Wall of Whips" that Mark has that is quite impressive. Up there on the wall were whips made by unknown whip makers, the now famous whipmakers and whipmakers that are now famous and weren't famous when Mark acquired them. Examples of what is on this wall are:

- the 2nd whip Joe Strain ever made (an indy style whip), not bad but far from the quality he is making know

- a David Morgan whip that he made soon after he hooked up with the famous Australian whip maker, Tom Hill Sr. It's a very long handled bullwhip (let's call it a target whip) with the classic style that Tom Hill used with 2 bellies and a 12 plait roo overlay. You wouldn't recognize it was a David Morgan. Tom actually corresponded with David a lot on the art of whipmaking.

- whips by Janine Fraser, Russell Shultz, Mike Murphy, Fiona Wilks, etc. the who’s, who. A Stenhouse could have been on that wall, but Paul told Mark to get in line like the rest of Paul's fans.

Here's a picture of Mark & Me in front of the famous "Wall of Whips"


Mark, then tells me that there is one whip that is not on the wall due to it's value. And that whip was a whip from a movie. More specifically, Raiders!!!! Right at that point, I do the "Cosmic Gulp"! "What", I say? I give this grin, like, "Mark, please don't BS, me"! "Sorry, that whip is offsite in a vault."

We both had to go, but I left stating my intentions that I would like to come back and take a few pictures. You know write an article about whips in general, and then have a side story of a famous whip (Yours), with a few snaps to reel in the audience. Mark says sure, and the rest is history.

We make contact again after a few months and I ask Mark to embellish the story around the whip that would authenticate it.

The following is Mark Allen's account:

"I frequently run advertisements under the want ads for trick saddles. A response came in 1993 from a woman by the name of Fay Schneider. Fay in 1993, was living in Las Vegas. I showed up at her home and agreed to buy the trick saddle. I also had asked if there was anything else she had that might be of interest. Well, that box over there has some whips and one was actually in one of the Indiana Jones movie."

Mark said, "Oh yea, well how did you stumble across it?" She proceeded to tell me that she was a next door neighbor of Glenn Randall Sr./Jr. when she lived in Santa Clarita, California. Glenn Jr., gifted her the whip right after the movie was made. Glenn of course never knowing how popular the movie was going to be.

I gave her a fair price for the saddle and threw in some extra bucks for the whip. Then I call Glenn to verify Mrs. Schneider’s recollection on the whip. Glenn says yep, and the rest is history.

Mark had a letter from both Fay Schneider and Glenn Randall Jr. that verified, authenticated their stories. Unfortunately Fay Schneider is now deceased.

Mark Allen finishes telling me the story. And now I say, that is really great, Mark, but I really need to take some pictures. Mark then starts getting more inquisitive about my interest in the Raiders whip and the reason for taking the pictures. Aside from making my article more interesting, there is a controversy BREWING AT INDYGEAR. "Oh yea", Mark says. I then tell him about the famous HANDLE LENGTH debate. That the knot placement on the handle and the shape of the turkshead knot are much different now vs. when Morgan was making the whips about 20 years ago.

So Mark and me arrange for a time to meet to take the pictures.

....It's Las Vegas, March 2002

I show up to the designated offsite location. Mark is visibly intrigued with my level of interest and wondering, "what kind of nut did I let into this place?" He goes into a secret room. I hear the tumblers of a huge safe. And I hear: "Holy s*h*i*t, YOU WERE RIGHT!!" I finally believe you. The ring knot is way out there. It's dark outside, so we rush into the kitchen for a picture taking session.

I finish taking pictures and out I pull my caliper that is accurate to 1/64 of an inch. Before I start measuring, I tell Mark that the knot on the handle should be 8 inches, give or take a few roo whiskers. The knot should end right at the end of the 8 inch nail that David Morgan used. I get out the caliper and SPEC ON. EIGHT INCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! High fives around. Mark does one of those COSMIC GULPS and is now extremely esctatic that another datapoint is true to mark (pardon the pun). And he now starts to feel a lot better about me NOT being a nut that just came off the streets.

Well, a happy ending to a great adventure. Actually holding a whip, that Harrison held along with Glenn Randall Jr., wow what a moment in history.

I think I didn't leave anything out. Happy Trails.

-Sergei

p.s. The whip is 8 feet long. We will never know which scene in the movie this whip was in. The facts are:
- it belonged to Glenn Randall Jr.
- it minimally was used by both Glenn and Harrison (Glenn coached Harrison before filming started)
- handle knot is at 8 inches, which is backed up by screen grabs
- the turks head knot is more bulbous than it is now as verified by screen grabs
- the letters from Fay Schneider and Glenn Randall Jr. independently verifying Mark's account of Fay with Glenn's letter
- Fay was the next door neighbor to Glenn Randall in Santa Clarita at the time of the movie
- I still to this day see advertisement's in western, cowboy, and horse magazines from Mark Allen under the want ads for trick saddles.

Was it actually in the movie? Well the age, the manufacture of the whip are true to the late 70's, early 80's bullwhips being made by David Morgan. Glenn Randall Jr. says that it was so. But based on the heavy use of this whip, the dimensions, it's certainly a safe bet.

Oh, yea. D*a*m*n me. I thought I forgot something else to this story.

Here are the pictures as taken in March, 2002, Las Vegas. These pictures are not modified in any form with any photo imaging program, other than inserting a visible copyright statement along with a non-visible digitally registered copyright, watermark.

Pictures were unfortunately taken with flash. So the pictured whip would be slightly washed out, thus rendering the whip a little lighter in color than actual.

[1] Picture - Fully Coiled



[2] Picture - Grip Area



[3] Picture - Braided End, Half-Hitch Area



[4] Picture of Handle Area from the Back



[5] Picture of inside of Wrist Loop



[6] Picture of the Man, Himself




I am very appreciative and a thousand thanks to Mark Allen for allowing this historical whip to be fully documented. He didn't have to do it.

Again, this article will be posted to the main part of the Indygear site in it's proper context with the pictures that are there now.

Take Care....

-Sergei

Wow........

Standing ovation. What a story!

..... drool....

Wow. Awesome tale, Sergei.

Mike

For me this was the most significant post I have seen here. Having studied it I found the little tan "Genuine Kangaroo Hide" label, which came with my Morgan attached with a little strip of roo hide. I took the little strip and retied it onto the strap just like Sergei’s photos show on the real Indy whip. They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thanks again Sergei.

Mark Allen is a lucky man but I can’t think of a person whom deserves it more, he has done so much for whipping, just look at that wall………….. It would be enough to make my hair fall out, if I had any.

You are the man S!

Bill Walton

Thanks Bill, Mike and Ryusi! I'm glad you enjoyed this piece of history on the Raiders whip.

Wow!! That was a thrill to read! Great pictures and documentation too!
Indiana Philip

This whip is for sale. Serious offers only. PM me first before bothering the owner. Or, if you know any serious collector in movie props, pass this thread along.

-Sergei

Wow, This is a great thread!!

and awe accomplished !

JJ

Sergei wrote:This whip is for sale. Serious offers only. PM me first before bothering the owner. Or, if you know any serious collector in movie props, pass this thread along.

-Sergei

Id just be interested in seeing how much he's asking for it... there is no way I could afford that whip...

I do have an update to the story. I talked to Mark Allen over the last Holiday season. He assumed, as well as myself that since Faye was no longer at her Las Vegas address that she was deceased. Further attempts to contact her failed. Well she just called Mark Allen not too long ago inquiring about saddles again. Apparently she moved back to California. Go figure... I thought I make this important correction.

-Sergei

I just wanted to bump this up to the top in relevance to my other post.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

IMHO one of the best posts of all time!

Happy Holidays Sergei!

Bill Walton

Thanks Bill!

I never thought it would be on the auction block so soon. What an ending, if it does sell for $40K or more!!!!

Mark, if you are reading this...steak dinner and a $100 bottle of wine. )

-Sergei

Hey Sergei,

I was reading through this post again. What day was this picture taken, in March of 2002? I took about 30 pictures of this wall on March 8th of 2002. We must have just missed each other. It looks like you were there just before the convention, because the wall of whips is organized and stocked.

Sergei wrote: After the lesson, we walked over to the famous "Wall of Whips" that Mark has that is quite impressive. Up there on the wall were whips made by unknown whip makers, the now famous whipmakers and whipmakers that are now famous and weren't famous when Mark acquired them. Examples of what is on this wall are:

- the 2nd whip Joe Strain ever made (an indy style whip), not bad but far from the quality he is making know

- a David Morgan whip that he made soon after he hooked up with the famous Australian whip maker, Tom Hill Sr. It's a very long handled bullwhip (let's call it a target whip) with the classic style that Tom Hill used with 2 bellies and a 12 plait roo overlay. You wouldn't recognize it was a David Morgan. Tom actually corresponded with David a lot on the art of whipmaking.

- whips by Janine Fraser, Russell Shultz, Mike Murphy, Fiona Wilks, etc. the who’s, who.

FYI-On the far left bottom of the wall is the Whitehide Stockwhips made by Janine Fraser. To the right of those, behind Sergei are some of Janine's roohide Stockwhips.

Above Janine's roohides and whitehides, are Russell Shultz stockwhips and bullwhips, as well as Terry Jacka stocks and bulls. Fiona wilks and Mike Murphys are in there too.

Directly behind Sergei and Mark, are Joe Strains. Indy's and Batman Returns bulls.

On the bottom right side of the wall are some of the Lil' Zorro's that I made, and above them are the Lil Indy's I made.

On the top section of the wall, the whip on the top very far right is the very first whip I sent to Mark Allen.

Outside of the picture to the right, are where the pocket snakes, and Blacksnakes are, as well as poppers and falls.

It's hard to see, but the bin behind sergei and mark have the dog quirts and quirts and hatbands in them.

Below the lil zorro's and the bins were a bunch of signal whips.

If anyone wants to see some of the close up pictures I have, shoot me an email, and I can email them to you. I can't figure out how to post photo's on here.

It's really impressive to see that many awesome whips all in one place.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

I am bumping this.. the pictures were pointing to the wrong url. I am hoping that this gets posted on the main site updates.

That was great to read. The last post in this thread was just a couple of months after I joined the site (Oct. '04), so I definitely didn't remember reading it. Great tale.

I'm glad you bumped this Sergei, that was a very interesting read. I hadn't seen this before.

I too am glad this got bumped. I LOVE movie prop archeology stories, and this one goes great with the BAPTY and Stembridge pistol postings.

Thank you for sharing the story and pictures!

Russ

Thanks Strider, Rook and Cracker!

For completeness, I am posting my sketches and measurements from that session. I didn't post the notes at the time of my original findings - it was out of respect for David Morgan. But I thought I would share this now. Examine the sketch below. My handwritten notes have two measurements in each key area. The left number was the Raiders whip. The right hand number is of current Morgan whips. The current number is usually higher, with the exception of the handle length (from bottom to top of handle junction knot) , which was 8 inches.



The whip measured for Raiders varied even for that era. But in general you can conclude that the laces were narrower, the thong diameter in general was narrower and the handle length was longer compared to current production whips. For the whipmakers, this should be an obvious statement. Those percise measurements of the laces will be hard to duplicate due to the variable stretch of the roo hide. So when the final pull occurs, the lace width narrows- and it stretches unpredicatably depending on the hide location. Hence the dilemma. Of course those with highly developed plaiting skills should overcome this.

-Sergei
p.s. In addition, I make no value judgments against the current production Morgan. David unconsciously evolved his bullwhip design to make it more robust and hardy. His intention was to sell his bullwhips to working professionals - stunt professionals, professional entertainers and cattle men. The professionals required a reliable performing whip, hence the evolution. My preference is for the current production model. However saying that, I know that folks have more screen accurate prefrences.