3M$, a spoiler to your theory......

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:20 pm

I just had this pic sent to me, and one that I lost in the crash. D. Muren, wore one of Ford's hat for the seaplane scene. This was noted years ago. Now, look at this pic. That reverse taper you had to create by using large bodies and cinching down to fit you was not needed. All you needed was this hat here, an original HJ fedora in Ford's size. Notice how smashing the hat created that reverse taper on teh back. Here it is folks......drumroll.......

Fedora

moses · Post by **moses** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:45 pm

I've NEVER seen that pic before!!!! Thanks Fedora.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:39 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:And here's something.....

So then....if Ford's hat on D. Muren looks brown in that scene, why does Ford's other hat not look brown in that scene? There's no gray hint on D. Muren's.

let's avoid that thought would you?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:46 pm

Here is the real hat. Before they sprayed it brown and restyled it.

Save it, and zoom in on the ribbon. Brown ribbon. Notice the tight front crease. Fedora

moses · Post by **moses** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Fedora, what do think of the brim on that indy hat that Muren is wearing? THere seems to be little or no flange - rather a completely flat brim.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:03 pm

Is that really reverse taper, or is it just a dent? It looks like he manhandled the hat, because it looks all wacked out.
The front below the pinch looks pushed in as well.
'Blues

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:22 pm

Like moses said, the brim is flattened. I think this is because the guy has a roundish head. Pull the sides of the opening wider and you get more back reverse taper., and, as seen here, more side taper.

What if this guy's head wasn't exactly the same size as Harrison's? If it was smaller they would have had to cinch it up even more. Who knows what the top bash looks like in your pic? Great pic though!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:14 am

Is that really reverse taper, or is it just a dent? It looks like he manhandled the hat, because it looks all wacked out.

Yep, reverse taper caused by the hat being crushed. I have maintained that is the bulge you see on the Cairo hat, the reverse taper. Knock some of the dent out, and you would still have the felt bulging over the ribbon. To me, this photo shows how the hat got that reverse taper, as noticed in the Cairo hat. The reverse taper is more due to the characteristics of this particular felt.(and how it bulges when crushed) You see various characteristics in felt bodies, as all felt is not the same. That was my point. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:15 am

But it had the back tilt/bulge when it was new. Take a vintage hat and a cheap modern one. If the felt on the modern one is thin enough, and lacks stiffener, and you tighten the ribbon on both, the felt has to go somewhere, and you'll get bulge over the ribbon on both. If the diameter of a vintage crown just above the ribbon is 23 inches, it doesn't magically expand to 23 1/2 inches when you mash down the crown. It stays 23 inches.

I sanded the base of the crown thinner and cinched the ribbon a little tighter today on my Reg. Fed and just took this picture. The profile of this hat barely changes when I wear it because the folded sweat and additional sweat stuffing creates a gap between the crown and my head, so the shape doesn't get pushed out. I said this hat was about one and 1/2 sizes to big. But I just measured my head for the first time in 4 years. It's 22 1/8. That's a perfect 56 according to Akubra, and my Fed. is size 59. .....Take these pics of Indiana Tone in his Fed and AB

It's obvious the length of the top of the crowns are too short in relation to the length of the base of the crown, so, no back tilt/ bulge on either. My hat is 3 sizes longer on top, with a pleated and cinched base, and looks about right. .. I believe in Fedora's experience, and agree a vintage or pure Beaver AB is closer to the Raiders felt. But a hat has to be oversized, pleated, stuffed and cinched to recreate the Raiders hat, in my opinion. ... If Mr. Muran is wearing the main Raiders hat un-altered, it's still oversized, pleated, stuffed and cinched.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:53 pm

But it had the back tilt/bulge when it was new. Take a vintage hat and a cheap modern one. If the felt on the modern one is thin enough, and lacks stiffener, and you tighten the ribbon on both, the felt has to go somewhere, and you'll get bulge over the ribbon on both. If the diameter of a vintage crown just above the ribbon is 23 inches, it doesn't magically expand to 23 1/2 inches when you mash down the crown. It stays 23 inches.

I do not agree it was bulging in back when new. The hat that looks new, that is, undistressed is the one he is wearng prior to enterng the temple. No bulge. And, I submit, that if you take a soft felt, and pull the top edge of the ribbon tight, you will get the bulge, especially if you accentuate it by sitting on the hat, crushing it down. If you look closely at all of those bulging hats, and put a straight edge, starting at the bottom of the ribbon, it is apparent to me at least, that the bottom edge of the ribbon sits farther out, than the top edge of the ribbon.(the ribbon has an inward slant from bottom to top) I think you agree with this. What I am saying, is you do not have to use a hat several sizes too large to achieve the effect. That is all.

But, unless you use the same type felt as HJ did at that time, you may very well have to do this. Since you have found no felt with the same characteristics as the Raiders fedora, you by neccessity have to use a larger body to replicate that bulge.

In regards to the AB felt being close to the Raiders felt, no way. They only share one similiar characteristic. Each felt is not the springy type. But any similiarities end at that point. The beaver felt does not lend itself to bulging, at least not at this point. Perhaps once the felt gets really broken in, through years of abuse, it might do that, but I doubt it. But, that is one trade off in supplying a durable hat. A hat that bulges, is not generally considered to be a real high quality felt. A high quality felt will hold its shape, and not bulge. So, there is the trade off. That few Raider fedoras survived the perils of an action/adventure flick is a witness to this. The LC felt, which was a different animal than the Raiders felt, i.e. stiffer, seems to have added some durability. And it does not bulge.

Also. Look closely at the pic on this thread, the black and white one. The top part of the ribbon is tight and presses in on the felt, and the felt above it bulges. But look at the bottom of the ribbon, and draw you a straight line upwards. To me, the bottom of the ribbon might be, I said might be in line with the felt above the top of the ribbon. I do not think that the bulge above the ribbon is actually bulging past the bottom of the ribbon. It give the illusion of the top of the hat being larger in circumference than the bottom of that hat. But it isn't. No mushroomed 3 piece blocks commonly used for women's hats was used to make Indy's hat.

We are both beginning from an assumption. My assumption is that Ford was fitted with his hats. That is how things are generally done, whether you buy a hat for yourself, or one is supplied for an actor in a film. So that is my assumption. From there, things are done to the hat to make it look old and well used.

Your assumption on the otherhand is that they bought a hat way too large for Ford, and then folded the sweat, and perhaps it was still too large, and they cinched the ribbon as tight as possible. Just to make it fit. And what you see as the bulging on the back is the result. While I will not say this did not happen, as anything is possible in this world, there is a more likely explanation. And what sort of costumer would not have fit Ford with a hat that fit?? Almost implausible. I am trying to remain inside the plausible, that's all.

How much bulge or reverse taper is on this hat?(using the bottom of the ribbon as the reference point)

Even if you drew a straight line, from the bottom of the ribbon(on the hat below) to the top of the hat, there is very little true reverse taper here either. Go to all of your "pics of proof" and use the base of the ribbon compared to the bulging reverese taper, and you will find there ain't much there. A caricature, once again. The eye adding more than in reality was actually there.

Fedora

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:See two posts above.

Bear in mind, your photos may not show the same hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:29 pm

That theory is not worth speculation?

Sure it is!! Anything is fair game here. Ford does have an extremely slanted front forehead. Almost caveman like.

And I would have to agree, a varaiable in the way the hat looks.

We need our surveyor and comrade Mr. Garrison to do a study, using straight lines to show the relationship of the very bottom of the ribbon compared to the hat that lies above the cinched in top of the ribbon. I would wager all might be in for a surprise. Most of those pics we have of this hat would show us an illusion. The reverse taper and bulging does not extend past the bottom edge of the ribbon. It looks that way to my eyes, but some photoshop work might make it more believable. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:30 pm

Bear in mind, your photos may not show the same hat.

But, I think we can agree that they were all HJs, and the same block was used to create them? Fedora

VP · Post by VP » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:33 am

Man, your white balance was really off when you took that pic.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:18 am

Oh...I don't know. I really LIKE the cyan in the background.

Regards! Michaelson

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:06 pm

And to think all I want is an Indy hat...thanks to everyone for making what will soon be my own hat accurate....

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:29 pm

Here are some more pics with some visuals that I find intensely interesting. I am providing them for folks that get into this analysis deal.

Thanks to our local surveyor, David Garrison. Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:17 pm

My ABs are much taller (when bashed) than those measures (if they are taken properly)! Any lower top pinches and they would taper... maybe the raiders hat was not as tall as we think

btw thanks for posting those pictures Steve.
In the last one is hard for me to read the red... anyone can tell me what's written?

VP · Post by VP » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:50 pm

Nope.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:55 pm

So the back of the hat is actually taller than the front?!?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:25 pm

The length of the top of the Raiders hat being nearly as long as the base is the reason I experimented with completely straight sided 360 stovepipe blocks. I'm guessing that was the case with Fedora nad Marc also. But 360 stovepipes create more problems. --- Here's my Fed, the Raiders hat and Tone's Fed. The length of the top of his hat is too short, and the ratios on his Fed look fairly identical to his AB. (You can see my hat is on low, nearly touching my ears, but the back keeps it's shape.)

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:43 pm

All 3 hats are worn low. I too have noticed the back bulge/tilt diminishes when the Raiders hat is worn high.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:05 pm

Any lower top pinches and they would taper... maybe the raiders hat was not as tall as we think btw thanks for posting those pictures Steve.
In the last one is hard for me to read the red... anyone can tell me what's written?

And that was why I dropped my default crown heights!!!

Really, I first dropped them when I noticed most of the guys wearing my early hats appeared to be wearing a too tall hat, if one uses the film as the comparison. Early on, years ago, I think we assumed the Raiders hat was taller than it really was. Lee Keppler said as much, when we used to give him trouble with his early Keeplers being too short. He got his maker to make them taller to please the customers, but he was right all along. He just made no big deal out of it. Of course, if one wearing a different hat size than Ford, some adjustment may have to be made to compensate for the larger head size. But we are not talking full inches here.

My ABs are much taller (when bashed) than those measures (if they are taken properly)!

Yours and most others too. I maintain we caricature the hat in our minds. Taller, more mushrooming that there actually was, etc. Mr Garrison has done many of these dimensionl things, as he is a surveyor by trade, and lives by lines and such. If one takes the ribbon to be 39 mm. then all of his diagrams are pretty accurate. He is consistently in the ball park, regardless of the hat pic he uses.

Any lower top pinches and they would taper... maybe the raiders hat was not as tall as we think

That is the key. Use a block shape that will give you these dimensions, without tapering. I have no trouble with my blocks, if I block them 5 1/2 open crown. Above that crown height, I do run into problems. I must be doing something right.

Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:07 am

With these last considerations, how tall do you think it really was Steve?

:post: calculations I just made on the Raven bar hat (the famous scene of the kiss) with my Adobe Photoshop measure tool tell me that the front is 11.4cm tall... mine is 12.5.
1 cm higher sounds still very good to me. I suggest you guys not to calculate the height on the cairo hat since that's not a new hat but it passed through a serious distressing process first!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:24 am

My measurement of the Raven hat is 11.5cm, 4.5 inches, and I'll post evidence tomorrow. But my Fed is 12cm. (thanks Erri..

) A couple possible excuses- Swales sold Ford a 7 1/4 hat as it's said, but if it was pleated cinched and stuffed, his actual size was 7. ..or.. maybe the ribbon was 41 mm like my PBBM. - Another typical "Indy" hat, with a too short top length, because it's stock.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:37 am

3thoubucks wrote:My measurement of the Raven hat is 11.5mm, 4.5 inches, and I'll post evidence tomorrow. [/img]

you meant 115 mm or 11.5cm (or 0.115 meters if you like

) I hope... 'cause 11.5mm is impossible!! It would be as tall as a nail.

I'm happy that you got the same measures I got for the Raven Bar hat

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:45 pm

David like what 3M$ was doing, and just sent these.

Now, you guys tell me how tall the original Raiders fedora was.

Like, I said, we tend to caracature Indy's fedora. In more ways than just the crown height. And, that includes myself. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:47 pm

Maybe its just me, but that last picture seems to be compresed in the horizontal. I'm not sure if that would make any difference with the measurments though.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:31 pm

Ah, I forgot the two, together that look very convincing.

Amazingly similiar conclusions, using different means. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:11 pm

Just one thing to remember, the barrel begins at what is called the forcing cone at the the font of the cylinder. So you you have to figure in the frame there too.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:47 pm

And can the hat measurements be used off of that fact?

I dunno. But would it not make more sense to use the ribbon as the given, that is 39 mm or 1 1/2 inches and go from there? It is sitting on the hat, and perfect for what David is using it for. Now, in order for the height to be as tall as we have thought for years, the ribbon would have to be 1 5/8, or even 1 3/4. I can say just by appearance, it could be 1 5/8, but not 1 3/4. That would jump out at me, personally. But, I cannot tell the difference in a 1 1/2 and 1 5/8 just by looking at pics. To confuse issues, those HJs in the Lucas Walkthrough looked to be 1 3/4 to me!!! They still do. And I recall us dismissing a hat, supposedly original Indy fedora(not Raiders) that appeared to have a 1 3/4 inch ribbon on it. It was discounted due to that, as being a real film hat. I think the guy got mad and left, due to our dismissal. But, what, just what if, it was wider than 1 1/2. That would certainly change the height of the hat using the above measurements.

Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:10 pm

Hmm. I'm leaving that up to the hat pros, but....just for speculation......would your friend Dave be willing to give hat measurements based on a ribbon height of 1 3/4"? (Of course, if the crown turns out to be 7" tall, I'm sure the answer will be quite obvious.) But it is very interesting that the walkthrough DVD has you seeing a possibly larger ribbon. Most curious. And kind of exciting.
_________________

I can ask. I would love to see one with the 1 5/8 as well. Of course, in either case, you would only add the 1/8 or 1/4 to the total heights-right? Or would it change more than that? Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:21 pm

Compliments of David Garrison, our local surveyor.

Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:52 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:DOH! you guys and your sensible stuff!

Alright, with the forcing cone included, how long should the visible length of a 4" gun barrel be? And can the hat measurements be used off of that fact?

I don't wan to sanund like a smart arse, but 4".

Its kinda hard to explain, (as I tend to talk with my hands) but the forcing cone is the part of the barrel that meets with the cylinder. Its the end of the barrel that the bullet goes into instead of out of.

The visible length, speaking from the frame to the end is 3-5/16" on my Mountian Gun. Of course this will vary with size of revolver. Steve's pic below shows what I'l talking about nicely.

I hope that helped, but I afraid I just muddied up the water even more.

Thats a pretty good idea since we know that the barrel won't change from scene to scene.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:19 pm

I didn't know it either Tone until put my foot in my mouth once. What is it they say? Live and learn.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:20 pm

ARRGHHH!! Now I gonna have to make a list of which hat has what creased crown height when I style these things!!! I am making more work for myself!!!

It seems some of the hats vary, just a bit. That would make sense as you can start out the evening with your hat creased a certain height, and later on, through putting it on, and taking it off, it can change. Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:19 am

There is a gap beween the brim and ribbon, a mm or two. Mr. Garrison measured from the bottom of the ribbon. Here I measure from the bottom of the crown.

Nearly 4 1/2 inches. ...BUT.. Here's my Fed in a side view, and I've placed a needle in the apex of the corner.

... Now I turn the hat, and the top of the pinch in the front view picks up a couple more mm above the needle. I think we're looking at about a 4 1/2 inch tall pinch in the Raven hat, if the ribbon is an inch and a half.

I don't know if the gap between the ribbon and bottom of crown is obvious in Mr. Garrison's pic here, you're looking at glowing felt edges.

I like this pic, but note the actual top of the pinch includes the glowing felt lit from above, taking it to 4 and 3/8, and if you drop the ruler down to add a gap below the ribbon, and factor in the back tilt of the pinch, which produces fore-shotening in this pic, you're closer to 4 1/2 inches.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:19 pm

I think we're looking at about a 4 1/2 inch tall pinch in the Raven hat, if the ribbon is an inch and a half.

I agree. The Raiders hat also in most scenes has quite a bit of crown pushed down inside the top crease. Many hats will taper if you start out with too tall crown and try to get what we see here with Indy's fedora. But, if the top dome is not shaped right, even a 5 1/2 tall open crown hat will not pull off the look close enough for discerning eyes. All will look greast from the sides, but when you look at the same crease job from the front, you have lots of what I call "stunk in taper" Not that the hat was tapered in the open crown state, but the very act of bringing the crown down to look accurate destroys the look from the front of the hat. The key is to have a block shape that will give you the right creased heights, while still maintaining a decent squareish look from the front. This is all great stuff here, and may have some reducing their crown heights. Others, like me, will still crease mine a bit taller, because we like the look as it sits on OUR heads. I prefer mine, 5 inches tall on the sides, 4 3/4 front, 4 1/4 back. Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:42 pm

The deciding factor to me is how low on your forehead you wear the hat. I have tried to wear some shorter crowned hats but my giant head keeps popping the top crease out a little. I wear my hat right at the top of my ears.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:29 am

The deciding factor to me is how low on your forehead you wear the hat. I have tried to wear some shorter crowned hats but my giant head keeps popping the top crease out a little. I wear my hat right at the top of my ears.
_________________

Good point. It depends upon how much head you have above the ears.

I don't think Ford has as much as some. His head shape dictated the final height. in a way I guess. It loks like he could wear that crown height with no problem. Fedora