Club Obi Wan

---- First clue- Deborah Nadoolman said the hat was an Australian Model. Akubra seems to be the only Australian rabbit felt hat maker today. Second clue- The hat may have been greenish. Here the hat looks closer to the color of the green bag, than the brown holster. Here we see some brown bagels on the right, some brown raw wood on the left. The hat looks kinda green in comparison? My reguar Fed can look reddish brown to blackish green in both artifical and normal light. ..Darthjones said LucasFilm displayed a claimed actual Raiders hat he saw at a StarWars convention - that looked green. ......I got my new Federation Deluxe yesterday. I thought I had the perfect hat with the Federation Regular, I just needed thinner, BROWN felt. .. Well, the hat is a true brown, with no trace of green, but the felt wasn't thinner or less stiff. There are some differences in the hats, things that made me think the Regular was closer to the Raiders hat than the Deluxe.... From the beginning, I noticed an extra bit of curl in the outer edge of the Raiders brim. I was excited to see this in my Regular Fed, it's something I'd never seen in my hats before. This may have been done by machine and not with a flange. Someone posted some Akubra factory pics, and some guy was doing something like this to a hat. My Deluxe doesn't have this, it has a general curve to the whole brim. The Reg is flatter with the extra curl at the edge. ... Both hats seem to have been stretched after completion on a heated expanding block, but it's barely noticeable on the Deluxe, and extremely noticeable on the Regular. These are both my Regular). The Deluxe wouldn't display these indications of stretching seen on the Raiders fedora. (The hat looks green there).... The Regular Federation has a bulge that runs front to back along the upper side of the left crown, that's there when the hat is new and unbashed. The right side doesn't have the bulge. I think the hat is stretched with the bow on it, and that's why. The Deluxe doesn't have the bulge at all. ... The Federation liner is glued in like this. The Deluxe the same way, but the glue line is twice as long in the Deluxe. Other hats I've owned have dots or whispy lines of glue. This style could be uniqe to to Akubra Reg. Feds. Could this glue line be the cause of the little dent above the ribbon? (Remember, the hat is turned so it's rearward) This glue line is also where the strecthing is, and locks in the stretching. ..... So, I got the Deluxe yesterday, thought the Regular was closer, then I started to look for a green looking hat in Raiders. Here's another pic of the glue for the liner, taken at the same time, in the same place as the other. The hat is just facing the in the opposite direction. The color shift is incredible. (note- all the pics of my hat above are the Regular, none of the Deluxe)

Wasnt the Federation kind of commissioned to satisfy us indyfans after the fact? I thought I remember reading that somewhere. If I'm wrong dont mind me You are progressive as usual 3thou and I always enjoy your observations.
Fletch

It was an old set of blocks Akubra already had. Here is an Akubra Squatter I bought last year. It had thin "Superfine" quality felt, which I thought the Deluxe would have. The Regular has "Imperial felt" and the Deluxe has "Heritage" felt , both much thicker than theSuperfine..

Interesting. I hope what I said about you being progressive didnt come off as patronizing or anything. I meant it in a sincere complimentary way. You have helped advance achieving a screen accurate hat with your input more than most. I was a lurker for more than two years before joining up officially and have followed your posts for a while. I don't own a Federation so I cant comment from personal experience but I thought the HJ had a more floppier less springy felt than Akubra's current offering. I'm not the one to say either way but it is good to have it affirmed once again that you can get a mighty fine Raiders hat in the Federation at an excellent price.


Edit: I typed all of this before reading your updated post. I didnt know that Akubra had a thinner felt. Even more interesting.

I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to think. Didn't David Morgan say the the hat was based on the Akubra Squatter? However, I think its streatching it a bit to say that the Raiders hat was really an Akubra. What about Swales' and the HJ's stories?

I have a Squatter too. like you said the felt is soft and floppy. If it was available in brown I'd buy one and have Steve reblock it just to see what results I could get out of their thin soft felt.

I think 4 or 5 years? It probably has more taper than other offerings. The reason mine looks good is because it's oversized and cinched up. (like the Raiders hat?)

So... where did HJ go now? Why HJ should have sold an Akubra in his shop? Didn't the screen-used raiders hat have a HJ mark in the lining?

The jacket looks brown here, the hat looks green. The Fed Reg's advertised color is "Mid Brown", which is argueably interchangeabe with "Coffee" The hat looks extremely reddish in the Raven scene, there's no video tape shift to green there. ..At least you admit it looks green Robert

3 your monitor may be on the fritz. There's definately no green in that hat.

Robert, the Paramont FX guy just said it SHOULD look green on my monitor. But why isn't the jacket green like the hat? Why aren't the bagels or his holster green?

3thoubucks wrote:Robert, the Paramont FX guy just said it SHOULD look green on my monitor. But why isn't the jacket green like the hat?

Perhaps in NTSC Honestly no green there. But I'm on a mac our screens are more accurate.

There are some green undertones to the hat, but honestly, if someone didn't draw my attention to it I'd never notice. Also, Darth, our other inside man said that when the hat was treated with bleach it gave it a green tint. IMHO, it takes more than similar undertones to say the hat is an Akubra.

That hat looks grey Tone.

Robert, you might want to update your macart links, most of them are dead. (maybe that's not your page to update?)

I don't want to start a Mac/PC war here, but the only thing affecting the color is your monitor, video card, and how much and what kind of light is in your room. Macs are easier to caibrate the color on though. I use a Mac at work every day, but don't own one.

Thank you, Tone. We TRIED to get the Federation line as close to what WE saw back at the time of development to a Raiders hat, but got bashed time and time again by folks who just didn't agree with what was being developed. Just ask Steve and _. Even the occasional green tinted Fed was addressed, and we fought THAT fight....but the Federation and the Deluxe were complete and total hand in hand projects between members of Indygear.com and HatsDirect/Akubra, and evolved from experimental hats that Steve and _ were at first separately, then jointly creating. Feds have been in production for 4 years now...this May as a matter of fact.

Akubra had no hand in any of the Indy projects, according to Ron, and he's been one of Akubra's front men for years in Australia. He would be tickled pink if the opposite were true, as then he could sell a TON more of his hats to us under that claim.... but he can't. Akubra just wasn't involved. He did say he sent a small lot of Federations to Hollywood a couple years back for project consideration, but never heard back from the contact.

Regards! Michaelson

p.s. looks green on my monitor too, Tone.

Well, when I asked if the Raiders hat could be a regular Federation, I meant an Akubra which may have used the same block and color felt in 1980 but would have been called something else. Fedora said a couple weeks ago that Ron just looked at Akubra's blocks and picked out the one he thought would work. Still, I'm certain this hat was stretched on a stretcher, making the block shape not so important? And if HJ used a stretcher too, like that guy at HJ says Swales just dug out, and it was the same stretcher, you'd probably get a similar hat. Cury could have made a greenish brown hat body for HJ. I don't know, I'm just double pleased with this Reg Fed now that I think the Raiders hat was green, or redish brown, depending on the light, and has the little extras the Deluxe doesn't. Here's an interesting blast from the past. http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/forum ... 25822.html ... Indiana _Tone, could you take a picture of your sweet new Regular Fed at night indoors using a regular incadecent, not flourecent bulb and no flash? Even with the saturation adjusted, It should have a reddish brown, not green look to it, like the indoor Raven Bar scenes. I think the reason the Peruvian temple hat maight look a bit green there, is that the cave was lit with daylight seeping in, the torch wasn't being used at that point, so the lighting would be adjusted toward full spectrum.

You could buy bagels in 1930 Cairo?

Neolithic wrote:You could buy bagels in 1930 Cairo?

Nope, but they were pretty common in Kairouan 1980.

3thobucks, you started this thread saying

3thoubucks wrote:---- First clue- Deborah Nadoolman said the hat was an Australian Model. Akubra seems to be the only Australian rabbit felt hat maker today.

but I remember she also said that the name of the hat which, she said, is still in their catalogue, is "Chelsea" in this case... we can find a Chelsea fedora inJames Lock & Co. Hatters catalogue. That is, by the way, a shop very close to the Herbert_Johnson's.

I would just consider Nadoolman's words totally unreilable since they are contraddictory even with themselves

The Chelsea was the hat the Ford personally purchased on his own, and that story has been spun into the legend as the years have gone by. Lock and co. has always winked when asked if their hat ever appeared in Raiders, but no one has been able to pin them down as to whether or not he ever DID sneak his own personal hat into the film.

That was a great read, 3....and notice who was doing most of the talking about what he was experimenting with at the time....old _, and he was using several different type Akubras at the time. Problem he was having then was the felt was extremely heavy....that's why the Fed was created with the high end felt you have today...and all due to old _ and Steve's experimentation.

Regards! Michaelson

erri_wan wrote:I would just consider Nadoolman's words totally unreilable since they are contraddictory even with themselves

Totally unreliable?? Unless she is totally out of her mind I would give some credit to a first person account. Deborah was there with Harrison with their pocket knives and sandpaper weathering the gear. I think most of the little dents and shadows we think were intentional on the hat were the results of rough handling.
The never ending quest is a truly fascinating read. I doubt the truth will ever be found (or accepted ) but what a ride!

Feraud wrote:[(or accepted ) but what a ride!

I vote for that one.

Regards! Michaelson

I’ll just throw my two cents into this…

First… I wouldn’t be surprised that the folks who made Raiders used an Akubra fedora, or at least the hat body since it held it’s block longer then any other fedora I’ve owned besides the Adventurebilt.

Second – Since the Federation didn’t exist until 2001/2002, it can’t be THAT model. But I’m open to believing that HJ used Akubra hat bodies, reblocked them and used their own liners, ribbon and sweatbands. I’m not convinced, but I’m open to that notion.

Third – The Green Tint. I have the first Akubra fedora Steve Delk ever blocked (“It should be in a museum!”) and I can tell you that there’s no green tint to it in normal or artificial light.

I'm surprised it's not moldy by now, Ren...but that's another angle to the pursuit....

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Every hat still that shows the label seems to be a Herbert Johnson. Why would Swales make up something like making the Raider's hat and then act like a snob when we tried to order one from him? I think Nadoolman may have said they used an Australian model, but it may simply be a reference to what she wanted the hat to look like rather than what it was. The story goes that Spielberg and Ford showed up at the shop. I am not sure if Nadoolman was physically present when the hat was purchased...

Thanks for the incandecent shot Tone! So the hat looks green, (sometimes brown) in natural light ..and brown in incandecent. The hat in this shot was shockingly dark looking, Maybe even blackish greenish brown, with no obvious dust on it. That's Harrison not a stunt man. This scene happens story wise, after the Flying Wing Fight, and after the Cairo scenes, so the hat should be dirt encrusted. This could have been the first shot filmed in Tunisia, the hat looked blackish green in natural light, not reddish like in the Elstree indoor sets, so, after this shot, they shoveled dirt on it to force it to look brown?

Am I reading this correct? The Akubra Regular comes out of the box with a greenish hue? And fades to a brown color?
My understanding of the Akubra color is based on an observation by Hemingway Jones. I believe his hat aged/faded into a greenish color due to exposure to the sun and elements? Now I am confused...

Indiana_Tone's hat is one day old in both those shots, green and brown. Just different lighting.

Good enough for me. Thanks!

That's strange. The bleach made it darker and brown/reder rather than lighter and more green or whatever the underlying color is.

Hmm, yeah. We'll that's actually the color that it looked like the hat was turning in that picture above. Had it been blotted with the towel at that point?

My understanding of the Akubra color is based on an observation by Hemingway Jones. I believe his hat aged/faded into a greenish color due to exposure to the sun and elements? Now I am confused...

I do not know if all do, but I have reblocked several, ones that had been worn alot, that were a very nice green. I have seen PBs in the same condition that were gray instead of brown. Once years ago, when I was reblocking one of my Feds, the hat bled blue/green, in the hot water. I could not figure out how a brown hat could bleed another color. At first, I thought it was a colored stiffener. I later found out, that all browns have an undertone. Some have a red, some a greeen some a yellow and probably a gray, although I have never see one bleed gray. Now, I have never reblocked a Deluxe Fed that bled any color other than brown while expose to very hot water. The good thing about the felt that I use is even with hot water, the hat bleeds so little that it does not color the water. I always figured that was a good thing. What little color does come out is brown. Fedora

Indiana_Tone wrote:That is the color coming "off" the hat, not being applied to it.
The towel was used to even out the bleach saturation on the brim to avoid spotting. Nothing was on the towel to begin with. That's the color of the dye coming off the hat. The bleach itself was applied with a spray bottle.
Anyway, the point was to show the hat was already a non-green shade of brown before the bleaching. Just in case that came up as a point of contention.

Yeah, I wasn't saying you applyed anything to it. I was wondering what stage of the process was the magenta and green/brown hat (bleached) in? Had you blotted it yet at that point? Was it still wet with bleach or was that dried?

Here's darthjones quote from April 1st '06. His story is a brown HJ was sprayed with diluted bleach and turned green. Who wants to spray a vintage HJ with diluted bleach to see if it could be true? Either way, a green hat!

First of all, if anyone here was at the 1984 World Science Fiction convention in Anaheim, CA they saw one of the hero Raiders hats. It was part of a Star Wars/Indy/etc. Lucasfilm display under the supervision of then Lucasfilm archivist David Craig. And one of the reasons I remember the hat so clearly is that I was blown away by the color and VERY uneven brim. According to Craig (and later Mr. Swales of HJ) the hat had been lightly sprayed with a diluted bleach. It caused the color to fade into a lighter, greener brown. Also, the ribbon went a little toward purple in its lighter color.

.........Here's a quote from The Aviator's HJ employee contact, Aug 22 '05 About finding the original Raiders block(s)

I have recovered the original blocks used which were in storage in Cambridge - One is a metal heated expanding block which is circa 1952 and uses a corkscrew turning wheel. The other was used for very large sizes 62+ and is wooden but the same shape. Both are totally flat sided and are very high to accommodate the crown height with a slightly domed top

Now, the Federation is stretched- the process seems to have even stretched the sweat and the liner! (in my Fed. Reg. as pictured below) There may be evidence of stretching in the Raiders hat, as I've pictured earlier in this thread. So we're not really looking for a block, so much, as we're looking for a machine? Are the HJ machine and Akubra machine the same or different? This heated metal expanding block I found with a google image search. darthjones sent me a pic of his, which is exactly the same.

Feraud wrote:My understanding of the Akubra color is based on an observation by Hemingway Jones. I believe his hat aged/faded into a greenish color due to exposure to the sun and elements?

Yeah, now it looks like this:

Yeah, it's funny. Who wants a green Raiders hat, when everyone knows it was brown? That's why I ordered a Deluxe after the Regular. Here's my bashed 2 week old Regular and new open crown Deluxe. I have no idea why the Reg doesn't look green here. I haven't even started to bash the Deluxe so far.

Now, the Federation is stretched- the process seems to have even stretched the sweat and the liner! (in my Fed. Reg. as pictured below) There may be evidence of stretching in the Raiders hat, as I've pictured earlier in this thread. So we're not really looking for a block, so much, as we're looking for a machine? Are the HJ machine and Akubra machine the same or different?

Those stretchers were used to stretch out a too small hat. If a hatter (some hatters, or retail shops), needed a larger size than they had in stock, they could take smaller hat, and stretch it to fit. Many hatters would refuse to do this, because it isn't the best idea to do it this way. But, if you want to sell a hat, and you do not have the size, you don't miss many sales using this. I have one, but never use it. I just start over and make the hat the proper size, if it is too small. What happens is sure, you stretch the hat out to fit, but that stretched leather sweat is gonna shrink back down, as well as the felt. If you are interested in providing a good hat, you will not use them.

Now, I think the original intent of these stretchers were for the customer who had a hat that fit, but it shrunk over time and wear. Instead of paying the extra bucks for a reblock, this was cheaper. Just stretch it out to fit once again, and you bought some time before you had to have it reblocked. Many times in the old shops, they would stretch a hat for free, but charged for reblocks. Makes sense. Seems like I recall someone telling me HJ would use one if they did not have a hat on the shelf to fit.

The times I experimented using mine, the results were always pretty bad. The dome really suffers with these things. You do not end up with a dome that looks good, and certainly not a Raiders looking dome.

These things were designed, not to be used to make hats, but rather to stretch them to fit. For that purpose they work well, as long as you are stretching back to the original size the hat was to begin with. To use them to overstretch a hat is shoddy hatwork. Fedora

3thoubucks wrote:I have no idea why the Reg doesn't look green here.

More than likely because it's siting on something that is VERY green and compaired to that it dosen't look green at all.

My Herbert johnson from Todd has a green look to it at times.

It seems kind of contradictory that bleach would turn a green hat brown and a brown hat green. I've got some true brown hats I'll experiment on. ... I had my doubts about a hat stretcher. The top of the Raiders crown in profile has a smooth swoop to it, and it seems a machine like the one pictured would ruin it with a flat spot. But looking at the top of the Fed, I'd guess a thin metal curved plate in the form of an "X" could have been placed on the top of the stretcher, then the hat pulled on over it?

I remember this Rolling Stone cover. I just now looked it up, but not in relation to this thread. Noticed the hat looks Reg. Federation green. http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gall ... o/12/large

1.I've got an Regular Federation for about one and a half years now and it never looked green in sunlight. On a sunny day it looks more pecan-colored like at the beginning of raiders to nice brown. If I stand in the shadow it looks more greybrown and indoors in the shine of the lamps its a rich chocolate brown. The only time it appears to have greenish undertones when it lies in the dark partof a unlighted room.

2. 3thoubucks, I cannot see a greenish undertone on the Raiders hat on any of your screenshots, sorry!

Just my two cents,

Henrik

Looks like the color's a bit off in that RS cover all over. Though I wouldn't say that hat looks greenish either. Looks about like the unbashed "x crown" one above color wise.

My Akubra is maybe 4 years old and still has the green tone which is more obvious to the eye when in sunlight (although it's not green itself-just has green tones).

My Akubra is maybe 4 years old and still has the green tone which is more obvious to the eye when in sunlight (although it's not green itself-just has green tones).

That has been my experience with my regular Federations as well. When I get in bright sunlight, the green undertone shows up quite well. Once I reblock them, and the hat bleeds a bluish/green into the water, the undertone basically goes away. I made a post regarding this a few years ago. It is still here, in the vaults somewhere. At the time, I thought it was colored stiffener, instead of dye. I now know, it was not colored stiffener, as that does not exist. Fedora

Steve, see if your memory reaches far back into the past. I sent you a Federation that had tapered and faded about the time you started offering blockings. It had shrunk pretty badly and you were able to reblock it an get a decent Indy hat out of it. That hat was green. Not so much when you looked at it by itself, but put it near a rich brown hat and the green color became obvious.

A few years later, I met Aaron from Aaron Hats in N. Conway and brought most of my hat collection with me. He said, "Olive green. That is a unique color for a fedora." (Keeping in mind this is coming from a guy selling fluorescent orange hunting hats) Aaron is a great guy and I plan on dropping by shortly as I hope to be in the area...

Steve, see if your memory reaches far back into the past. I sent you a Federation that had tapered and faded about the time you started offering blockings. It

I do remember that hat!!! Gosh, I feel vindicated. I finally remembered something that occurred outside of my 1 day memory chip. The hat had a narrower brim as I recall, but you looked quite dashing in the pics you posted. (if course my view was predjudiced as it was one of my early attempts at reblocking) Wasn't that the same one you run through the washing machine?? You figured, heck, if he screws it up, no loss. See, I do remember, some things. But, you know, those early days of the free reblocks were filled with hats that folks were not afraid to have messed up by the neophyte. Heck, that is how I learned how to do them right. As I have always said, this forum here allowed me to start this hat making deal. So many brave and trusting souls in those early days. Where else could you find so many willing folks to send you their hats to learn on?? Fedora

Here's a pic from a few years ago. A standard Federation, a Miller and a Peters Brothers. The Fed had that greenish tint under certain lights till I set it out every day for about three months till it faded. the PB is the only one I still have. This pic is a good example of the color differences.

Here's a pic from a few years ago. A standard Federation, a Miller and a Peters Brothers

Yes, that brings back memories. I really like that deep color on the Miller. I had to buy 3 of those before I got the right brim width. They offered the brims in 2 1/2, 2 5/8 and 2 3/4 back then. I ordered the 2 3/4, and got the 2 1/2. So, instead of sending it back, I ordered the 2 3/4 again, and got the 2 5/8!!! The third time was a charm and I got the right brim. I loved those hats until my got damp and tapered like a dunce hat. In retrospect, I think a good dose of water repellant, with periodic applications would have made that hat last alot longer. Live and learn. They were decent hats, as Biltmore made them. I am tempted to buy one just to see how they look now that my knowledge has increased. I was rather uneducated in felt back then. Fedora

I loved my Millers as well, but like you said, Fedora, the taper that developed was unreal...and I DID apply water repellant. It worked for a while, but after the first good soaking, it was off to the races.

Like the PBBM, it was a hat hat was perfect for dress purposes, but for daily hard wear, it just couldn't handle the wear and tear.
That's the reason I ONLY wear my PBBM in nice weather.....I don't want a repeat of my Miller.

Regards! Michaelson

the taper that developed was unreal...and I DID apply water repellant.

Ah, I should have known!! You were using that stuff before I even knew what it was!! I should have known, once you moved on from the Miller, nothing would have helped!! Regards, Fedora