Club Obi Wan

I've always thought the fedora Indy wears in the Temple exterior scenes looked a bit different than the rest of the feodras worn in the film. The crown looked taller, the ribbon smaller, the front pinch different than on ALL the other Indy fedoras in all the films. Now, I may be wrong, but I had some theories about this hat and I had some questions I was hoping some of our board talent can give some imput to.

First, my screen caps.























I've often wondered if this hat was something other than a Herbert Johnson but haven't given much time into research on it so I thought I'd post here to get some opinions.
I figure it most likely an HJ like the rest, just bashed differently. We see Ford bashing his own hat and messing with it several different times but that was his main fedora. The fedora I'm talking about only seems to have been used for the scenes right outside the Temple entrance, both before and after Indy goes in. Once Indy is inside it's a different fodora. I also thought that if it was used for all the outdoor Kauai scenes then it may be that after it got completely soaked in salt water it was discarded and a new hat used.
I also recall a thread where someone said that another hat maker made some hats for Raiders in a Pecan color, had seen pics of them being made as well as the receipts from Paramount. So, we know other hats were made for the film but we have no idea if they were used and if so, for what characters. I thought that it may be possible that the Temple exterior hat was a different hat than the others in the films. Maybe they intended it to be that way, as if his hat was ruined at the beginning of the film and he simply grabs another from his closet.
The hat does appear to be slightly lighter, or more Pecan in color to me than the others in the film, but that opens up a whole completely different discussion which I know leads to nowhere fast, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

The front pinch looks tight but the sides are not pushed back which is evident in all the other hats in the film, yet it retains it's stovepipe shape. Now, I can't do that with my hat. If I don't push the sides in far enough I get a slight taper. Of course, it's not blocked on the same block as the original either. I was thinking that maybe this is the hat that Swales blocked in the pinch with that machine? Any thoughts?
From the pics the channel seem to be a fair depth although you can see the back is not pushed as far down as the other fedoras in the film. You can't really tell if there's a difference in the depth of the channel in this hat to the other hats but the crown looks alot taller on the Temple hat and the ribbon a little smaller. However, the hat experts here can look at the bow and see some things I can't.
The brim looks alot different too and that's very evident in the pics. Alot flatter.
It's most likley just an HJ...perhaps the very first prototype that they came up with before placing the order for the rest? I have that theory about one of the Raiders jackets which is the main jacket worn by Ford throughout the film.

Any thoughts about this hat? I know theres been some sort of discussion about this hat before but the stupid search won't let me get past one page of searches so I hope I'm not being redundant.

Looking at the front part of the bow, this definately is an HJ IMHO. The Raiders flying V is quite unique and wasn't seen on other brands hats, before we (gearheads) requested to have it doublicated or did so ourselves. Dakota Ellison's vintage fluff HJ (you know, the former "long haired") had that particular bow to start with, so it's not a Raiders phenomenon as much as bow that they just did at HJ back then. It (the bow) looks different in the rear, than on any other hat in Raiders, right. Could be, that the second crease in the rear of the bow went away after some "heavy treatment", but it could as well be, that they used different hats after this shooting was done.

What's amazing, is that the rear of the crown clearly has a taper to it, now that the rear of the top crease ain't very deep (gotta support Errico a little here ). So - especially with very soft felt - IF this hat was made on the same blocks as the other hats, the deep top crease in the rear IS the reason to the reverse taper... But back on topic.

The flattish brim has clearly had it's trip on the brim flange, as it can be seen in the 6th. picture. But considering how soft and floppy the rabbit felt was on the Raiders Fedora, it would have relaxed some, from when the hat was bought until it was used in this scene. Remember that these guys didn't care about the brim swoop the way we do and just put the brim on a flat surface. Looking at the placement of the bow, this hat is very little turned - if any - to start with, so what usually helps making the swoop more drastic is missing here.

I think that due to the missing depth of the top crease the crown APPEARS to be taller and therefore the ribbon APPEARS to me smaller.

Just my personal opinion.

Regards,

Marc

I agree with what Marc said. This reminds me of what Marc and I spent hours, long distance, discussing a year and a half ago.

Now, my personal thoughts. I think this is an HJ. I think it is a brand new HJ, with little distressing. The felt looks too smooth and pristine. The creases are a bit different, with the left crease starting really close to the front of the hat, at the bottom. The brim has been flanged, as you can the what some call the bird beak on the front of the brim, while the back has been popped downward on some of the pics. Once of the later pics in the sequence shows the curl returning to the very back. Looks like some of the curl was ironed out, but it may be the brim was just popped downward. As you can see, when the top crease is shallow, the back side has taper to it, that is, in the open crown state. There was the traditional taper on the front and back, but less than some block shapes. If you assume the ribbon is 39 mm, or 1 1/2 inches, and extend it upwards to determine the crown height, at the front pinch, you come up with a constant 3 ribbon widths in height, or app 4 3/4 inches. Not as tall as most think this hat actually was. Lee Keppler told me once that we had that crown height wrong, as most folks wanted a too tall hat. Another caricature that I am fond of mentioning. When Noodleman mentioned the hat had a tall crown, we must remember that starting in the late 50's, or early 60's, crown heights dropped overall. So, from that standpoint, it was a tall crowned hat. When I talked to Stetson around 15 years ago, I was told that the tallest dress hat that they made, or had blocks for was 5 inches max. If the original Raiders HJ was 5 1/2 open crown, then that would be a tall hat. 1/2 an inch on a hat shows up as a mile. I have had the pleasure of reblocking many HJs over the years. Most were from the late 80's and 90's. All of those hats had a 5 1/2 open crown, with the exception of two. I saw one with a 6 inch open crown, but came new with a very tapered blockshape, non Indy. The other one was 5 inches tall, and was a squareish block, and looked too short for an Indy fedora. I also heard of two more accounts where Swales sent short crowned hats. I think he just sent what he had on the shelf, at least at one point in time.

I still maintain, that the Raiders fedora, with all of that reverse taper was a product of distressing, and wear, and the nature of the supple felt that was used on that particular hat(s) Like my vintage HJ, which I believe is the same exact felt, the hat seems to mushroom out, on its own after a bit of wear and getting it damp. Mine did that naturally.

Also Agent, when I bought my 3 Optimos, the block that he used for my 7 1/4 was the best Raiders block that I had ever seen, until Marc and I came up with ours. No taper as viewed from the front, in the open crown state, and just a bit, front and back. So, Graham did his homework, and noticed right off which block to use. It may not have been perfect, but it was so close that few would have noted the differences. Fedora

It seams to have the same ribbon creases as the Ciro hat also.




Could this be the same hat? Mabey later or earlier in production.

I did use other peoples pics from other threads I hope no one minds

It seams to have the same ribbon creases as the Ciro hat also.

I was waitin' on Errico to catch that one there. I saw that too. Just going by the width of it in comparison to the width of the ribbon, it looks just like the bottom side of the reeding tape. But, the thing is, I have never seen a hat that would show the outline of it, except a very, very thin vintage Borsalino that I owned a few years ago. A roll up. It was so thin and soft, that the reeding tape would show, prior to attaching the ribbon. I guess if my ribbon would have been thin, just like the fabric used on the Akubras, it may have shown through as well. Something to ponder. Now, before a vintage hat guy chimes in with, "Borsalino did not use reeded leathers on their roll ups", let me explain. I removed the non reeded, whipped in stock sweat, sized the hat up one size, and then had to install a reeded sweat. You can't sew that other sort back in, without a special machine. Now, let me draw two conclusions, from an assumption. If what we see is indeed the bottom portion of a reeded sweat, two things must be present. First, the felt in that part of the hat is thinner than most. And, it has to be really soft. Now, you could say, " but look at the thickness of the brim. That hat was not thin!" I would counter with a little known fact. Back many years ago, when there were many small custom hat shops competing with the likes of Stetson, Knox, Lee, Cavanagh, Dobbs, etc, some of those hat shops were run by master hatters. One thing that a master hatter would do when making a hat was vary the thickness of the felt. The tip, or top of the crown was the thinnest, and as it dove down toward the brim, the felt would get slightly thicker, finally ending up at the thickest part-the brim. Some of this was done by the way that it was blocked, but part of it was in the pouncing too. So, a finely made hat was the thinnest at the tip, and gradually became thicker as it reached the brim. Of course, the brim was left thicker, and was the same uniform thickness. So the thinner felt stopped at the brim break. If this Raiders fedora was made in this way, that would explain what you see outlined through the ribbon. It is possible. Fedora

just to bounce off an idea that I got reading all the threads on this subject. What if they put on an elastic band on the hat ( under the ribbon). To tighten things up ( so his hat wouldn't come off). Wouldn't this cause a reverse tapper on a reg. oval on a long oval head. Wouldn't this cause the line ( under the ribbion that we all see ).??????

I just read the new Noodleman interview at Raider.net. She states 12 hats were ordered for the Raiders film. When asked if any tricks were used to keep Ford's hat on, she replied no, not that she was aware of. His hat fit well, she said. The stuntmen, on the other hand, had chin straps. Elastic ones. This may well put to rest the shims, tapes and other items folks have thrown out to explain facets of the hat. But, then again, perhaps not. She still insists the model acquired from HJ was the Australian model. Never mentioned the Poet, at least not in this interview. Does anyone know, if HJ ever offered, a so called Australian model? Of course, at one time, I conjectured that perhaps the Poet was named after that famous lawyer/Poet from down under. Speculation. I am good at it. Fedora

To my personal knowledge, Swales had no idea what she was talking about, and insisted it was a standard uncut Poet that he pulled down for inspection. This has always been one of those 'he said/she said' bits of information that has hung fire between the principle designer/makers of the gear ever since I've been involved.

The same exists between the designer and jacket maker. In one interview she remembered dealing with Peter Botwright, and in the next interview she never heard of him, so I take it all with a grain of salt anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

To my personal knowledge, Swales had no idea what she was talking about, and insisted it was a standard uncut Poet that he pulled down for inspection.

Yep, and it is old hat that Mr. Swales' account and her account are at odds. He said, Spielberg and Ford came in the shop. Perhaps, she was with them? Perhaps his old English demeanor, ignored the female, and gave his attention to the males? Speculation once again. Fedora

Has anyone here ever try the elastic band? If it got the same results , does it matter?

jpenman wrote:Has anyone here ever try the elastic band? If it got the same results , does it matter?

Thats my philosophy with the whole gear thing - if it looks like it does on screen, or more to the point the way you perceive it to be onscreen, then its a sucess.

Ken

He said, Spielberg and Ford came in the shop. Perhaps, she was with them? Perhaps his old English demeanor, ignored the female, and gave his attention to the males?

Well, at the time, if Han Solo, the director of Jaws and Close Encounters and some woman you don't know walks in your shop to see about a hat for the hero character in their upcoming film, who would you want to talk to?

I'd wanna talk to Han Solo, but then again, I was 8.

OK. Heck, I'm 33 and I'd still wanna talk to Han Solo.


OK. So, you guys have no doubt this is a poet in the scene in question? I thought it would be the bow that would give it away to you guys.
I did not notice the line on the ribbon though. Good call on that one.
In pictures 4 & 5 the crown looks taller than the rest, but in the pics showing the bow, it looks just about as tall as the others do.
I know it's very, very easy to create illusions with the ribbon width and crown height so you are more likely right it is just that making it appear larger than it is.
I did notice the taper in the back as well but mine does that unless I push the back down more and bring the channel down as it is seen in the rest of the film.
But what about that front pinch and the side dents? As I said, I cannot get any hat to have the dents so far up and still have a total stovepipe look. It always tapers unless I move the dents farther back, especially towards the top. Then I push it down a bit and it's fairly squared off. But if I move the dents up, I immediately get taper.
Steve, since it appears your block is the most similar to the Raiders block, what do you get when you match the bash as in the pics above?

Does anyone know, if HJ ever offered, a so called Australian model?

Michaelson...burried...HJ...catalog...

Has anyone here ever try the elastic band? If it got the same results , does it matter?

Dude, he was talking about chin straps in elastic for the stuntmen, not elastic inside the hat to help keep it on. It's right in his post.
If you would like to add elastic chin straps to your AB's, I'd be the first to say I wanna see pics of you in it...and fast!

Agent 5 , why don't you try reading post before you post. Thats not what I was trying to get across. If you put a elastic band on your hat around mid-line of the ribbon ( under the ribbon ) on a reg. oval hat with someone with a long oval shape head , you will get the revese tapper. You will also get the line mid-way of the ribbon SOC. I wasn't talking about a chin strap. I don't know where that came from..

Fedora wrote:

It seams to have the same ribbon creases as the Ciro hat also.

I was waitin' on Errico to catch that one there.

I noticed that too but I was trying to keep myself out a bit... expecially in a Jason's thread
anyway, very good observer greatgarlando... I was just comparing the two pics too!

I agree with Agent5 that it's really impossible to get that look! Few days ago I tried by myself because I've always loved the temple look. The felt look soooooooooo soft. Neither on my mum's beaver AB (which is quite thin and soft) I could have got those results.

About the colour... well we all know the limits of a topic like that Anyway I can see those pics are on gray shade which made the normal brown hat look pecan... you can compare it with the shirt which on my monitor looks pretty grey and looks like in no other scene of the film.

Since darthjones said that on the raiders hat was used the pinching machine (whatever it is ) I always thought it was referred only to the "temple hat" also because in many other hats we see in the film I... of course i'm not an expert to say this but ... I can see that most of them were pinched with hands probably by Ford himself.

Steve, since it appears your block is the most similar to the Raiders block, what do you get when you match the bash as in the pics above?

I looked, and the only hat I could find that I had put the shallow front creases in is this one. But, I have only one view of it. Nowadays, I mostly push the crease back farther than I did on this one. I will get a shot of the hat I am trying to finish up now and post it later on. Here is the one that I made a couple of years ago, with the shallow front creases.




Compare to pic number 8. Fedora

Why now do I want another ????


This is the most hard thing to reproduce



... that bump under the side.. crease? Am I using the right words?

erri_wan wrote:This is the most hard thing to reproduce ... that bump under the side.. crease? Am I using the right words?

Those 2 that you can see there??

Interesting that the brim should be wavy like that though, isn't it? Is this just because the felt was so thin and floppy, or maybe this hat is older than "brand new" ?

I know I'm not one of the upstanding Fedora Folks here at COW, but I just thought I'd interject my small observation and pose a quick question that I myself was wondering.

...I need to get myself an AB and mess around with it!

In Christ,
Shane

Penman,
Steve wrote:

The stuntmen, on the other hand, had chin straps. Elastic ones.

Then you replies later on:

Has anyone here ever try the elastic band?

I sorta thought since elastic was mentioned earlier in this thread that this is what you were talking about. Sorry if I misunderstood, man.

I need to get myself an AB and mess around with it!

I agree. What hat do you have now? If you don't have a similar type of felt already then you'll find yourself in front of the mirror messing with it all too often. It's just too easy to do it without steam.

I have a Fed[eration] right now - I had the opportunity to mess around with Bink's AB when we were in Mexico and I was shocked at how soft and malleable it was. Unfortunately or fortunately for me though, next on my list is a new Wested - the cotton one is starting to get too small, and my Fed fits fine.

In Christ,
Shane

IndyMcFly wrote:

erri_wan wrote:This is the most hard thing to reproduce ... that bump under the side.. crease? Am I using the right words?

Those 2 that you can see there??

No. This bump

Erri,
All I have to do to get that bump to stay in my fedora is push with my finger and it stays right in place.

agent5 wrote:Erri,
All I have to do to get that bump to stay in my fedora is push with my finger and it stays right in place.

Can you get the identical result? I wasn't able with my hats

agent5 wrote:Dude, he was talking about chin straps in elastic for the stuntmen, not elastic inside the hat to help keep it on. It's right in his post.
If you would like to add elastic chin straps to your AB's, I'd be the first to say I wanna see pics of you in it...and fast!

I think it would be a great idea for your birthday party.

agent 5, you missed my first post

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: hat
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just to bounce off an idea that I got reading all the threads on this subject. What if they put on an elastic band on the hat ( under the ribbon). To tighten things up ( so his hat wouldn't come off). Wouldn't this cause a reverse tapper on a reg. oval on a long oval head. Wouldn't this cause the line ( under the ribbion that we all see

Then Steve posted

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just read the new Noodleman interview at Raider.net. She states 12 hats were ordered for the Raiders film. When asked if any tricks were used to keep Ford's hat on, she replied no, not that she was aware of. His hat fit well, she said. The stuntmen, on the other hand, had chin straps. Elastic ones. This may well put to rest the shims, tapes and other items folks have thrown out to explain facets of the hat. But, then again, perhaps not. She still insists the model acquired from HJ was the Australian model. Never mentioned the Poet, at least not in this interview. Does anyone know, if HJ ever offered, a so called Australian model? Of course, at one time, I conjectured that perhaps the Poet was named after that famous lawyer/Poet from down under. Speculation. I am good at it. Fedora

erri_wan wrote:

agent5 wrote:Erri,
All I have to do to get that bump to stay in my fedora is push with my finger and it stays right in place.

Can you get the identical result? I wasn't able with my hats

Yep, worked here, too. It doesn't stay in yours? Hunh. I can get the 'back dents' to stay, too...boy I love this AB.

Fedora wrote: Here is the one that I made a couple of years ago, with the shallow front creases.




Compare to pic number 8. Fedora

Steve,

That hat is so beautiful it hurts to look at it...ow...

BTW, in those side views that hat looks a heck of a lot like the one JP made for Band Director Jones from the Stetson auction body, I think that one had a similar bash.

I guess when mine gets here, it'll be my Temple hat
Fitting, since my latest AB has an idol grab bash...hey, this could be my excuse to expand my hat collection! I'll just work my way through each scene in Raiders...

Antone

Ok, here is one that I am working on. I threw some shallow front creases in to see what it would look like.












I was just about to cut the dimensional brim on this one, if you are wondering what those white lines on the brim could be. Only the crown is pounced at this stage. Also, I just laid a ribbon around the hat to make it look more like a hat. Fedora

So, Steve... how does it feel, working in an acient Egytian tomb?...

Regards,

Marc

I guess when mine gets here, it'll be my Temple hat
Fitting, since my latest AB has an idol grab bash...hey, this could be my excuse to expand my hat collection! I'll just work my way through each scene in Raiders...

Not to get off topic here, but dude, you only need one AB to get ALL the different bashes from the film. A new AB with a different bash is like the exact same AB with a different bash. Just take a look at Jerry's post about getting the side dents in with ease.

Yep, worked here, too. It doesn't stay in yours? Hunh. I can get the 'back dents' to stay, too...boy I love this AB.

See, unless you're getting a diffferent colored hat then you already have every single bash from the film already in one hat, the hat you already have, you just have to do put the bashes in when you want them. I'm just not understanding why people are still asking for certain scenes to be bashed on their hats because you can get them all out of the one hat without steam?

Someone please tell me if I'm missing something here?

See, unless you're getting a diffferent colored hat then you already have every single bash from the film already in one hat, the hat you already have, you just have to do put the bashes in when you want them. I'm just not understanding why people are still asking for certain scenes to be bashed on their hats because you can get them all out of the one hat without steam?

Someone please tell me if I'm missing something here?

I agree with you on this.

Agent5, some of us just like excuses to buy another hat!

"Oh, look, I can have a brim width 1/64" shorter than my other one! Time to but another hat!"

I can see that, Bink. But to get the exact same hat and just keep one bash for each scene in each hat it going too far. That's the old method of thinking...thinking in steam. That is no longer necessary with felts like Steve is offering.

Shorter/taller crown, wider/shorter brim width = understandable.

Same exact hat in different bash = WHY?

....Closet full of hats, Priceless!

Marc wrote:So, Steve... how does it feel, working in an acient Egytian tomb?...

Regards,

Marc

Hahahahaha..... I just noticed the background of that hat pic! You could call that the "King Tut Bash" for that hat style.

Closet full of the SAME hats...well, I don't wanna insult anybody.

agent5 wrote:I can see that, Bink. But to get the exact same hat and just keep one bash for each scene in each hat it going too far. That's the old method of thinking...thinking in steam. That is no longer necessary with felts like Steve is offering.

Shorter/taller crown, wider/shorter brim width = understandable.

Same exact hat in different bash = WHY?

One as a dress hat, the other as the adventure hat? I know what you're saying, but would there be other pieces of gear that could fall into this category? Why would one need more than one original MKVII with the W&G stamp on it? Or why several pair of the same shirt or trousers? I'm not saying it necessarily makes sense, but some folks just like them enough to own more than one of the same thing!

So, Steve... how does it feel, working in an acient Egytian tomb?...

It keeps me in the mood!! When I start putting the hat together, I grab the remote to my Bose, and without leaving my chair, I can start the soundtrack from Raiders. Now, before you laugh, I am serious about this. There have been times when I was sorta burned out on making hats each and every day. When this happens, I just grab the Raiders DVD, and within a few minutes, I am fired up again!!! I guess some folks never grow up!! Raiders always provides me with the right motivation. Fedora

but some folks just like them enough to own more than one of the same thing!

Guilty as charged, your Honor!! I must own more than 20 hats, and just added a vintage Cavanagh recently. I will never wear it much, but it is there just in case I need it!! All of my hats end up as Raider fedoras, eventually.

In the other camp are the guys who want just one hat. But a serious hat wearer needs at least two. A spare, in case of a reblock on the first hat, or a spare in case the wind, or someone steals your hat. I never leave the house without one perched on my head. Personally, I would have great inner turmoil, if I only owned one hat. I would have anxiety attacks from worrying about becomeing homeless.........er, I mean hatless. Same difference really. Fedora

Don't grow up my friend, it's the secret to youth.

It keeps me in the mood!! When I start putting the hat together, I grab the remote to my Bose, and without leaving my chair, I can start the soundtrack from Raiders. Now, before you laugh, I am serious about this. There have been times when I was sorta burned out on making hats each and every day. When this happens, I just grab the Raiders DVD, and within a few minutes, I am fired up again!!! I guess some folks never grow up!! Raiders always provides me with the right motivation. FedorabinkmeisterRick

Thats great.

One as a dress hat, the other as the adventure hat?

But a serious hat wearer needs at least two. A spare, in case of a reblock on the first hat, or a spare in case the wind, or someone steals your hat.

You know, I never even thought about those two comments right there and they make alot of sense. Still, if you order two AB's JUST to get a different bash out of the both of them is kind of redundant since you can have both hats acheive exactly the same thing. I'm not as serious a hat wearer as many of you are on a daily basis so your comments never even came across my method of thinking.

See, even an old guy can still learn something. Come to think of it, I learn something new just about every day on the net. Alot of it here from these talented people.

5, hurry up and get that second hat already!

Agent 5-

I was mainly joking about that comment. I was amused at the idea of some gearhead having a huge rack of Raiders hats, all lined up and bashed in chronological order scene-for-scene screen accurate. I wonder if there are any gearheads obsessive and a***-retentive enough to do that...probably...

And besides, I don't need no stinkin' excuse to get another hat; I just see one that I like and I darn well get it.

Fedora wrote: But a serious hat wearer needs at least two. A spare, in case of a reblock on the first hat, or a spare in case the wind, or someone steals your hat. I never leave the house without one perched on my head. Personally, I would have great inner turmoil, if I only owned one hat. I would have anxiety attacks from worrying about becomeing homeless.........er, I mean hatless. Same difference really. Fedora

Amen to that! I've got my grey AB for formal dress, suits that don't go well with brown, and private detection work, my Fed deluxe for downpours, major abuse, and as a backup for daily wear, and my AB brown for every day wear and traveling. I'll eventually get an AB deluxe just for the joy of having an indy made of the best materials money can buy. But really, you have to understand that some people here are just plain hat nuts and you really can't reason with that

Antone

Antone, believe it or not....yes, I have known folks in the past who have collected hats and had them displayed in chronological order of frame shot from Raiders.

I've since lost track of these folks, but they do exist. It's ALL this one fellow collected too, as I recall, and he didn't even wear hats!

In any hobby, you have your extremes on both ends of the scale, and regarding any particular part of the gear. We've known folks who years ago used to frame grab photos of the jacket and literally count the threads in each of the sleeves where it connected to the shoulder and INSIST anything made with more or less thread count was NOT screen accurate!!! (we used to call them 'stitch nazis!' I called them, uh, 'detail oriented' )

That's been my personal experience to date.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson, somehow I can't say either of those examples are too terribly shocking. Heck, if you have the time and money, more power to you...there are certainly worse hobbies one could have.

And I'm certainly not going to be the first one to deride other folks for being obsessive or eccentric...let he who is without sin cast the first stone, those who live in glass houses and all that...

Antone

Well, true, but they were driving our vendors NUTS at the time INSISTING that these research points be incorporated into patterns, and they wouldn't listen to the fact that it took a LOT more stitches to sew the sleeve on a size 48 than, say, Ford's size 40 from Raiders!

Regards! Michaelson