The narrow sweat on the Cairo hat........

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:54 pm

I just got a pic in from a customer and noticed something, that is old hat really. But, it is an interesting observation worth repeating. If look closely at the tight ribbon on this hat, you will see the impression of the sweatband showing through. Assuming that the ribbon is 39 mm, this would put the width of the sweat at around 1 inch wide. Since I have never personally seen a leather sweat in a felt hat that was only 1 inch wide, I think assuming that it was cut down is plausible. My sweats are the same width as the ribbon, once installed. Now, part of the bulging sides of the Cairo hat is perhaps due to the narrow sweat. You tighten up the ribbon to make the hat good and snug, so it stays on better, and voila', the narrower sweat lets the felt compress, staring not at the top of the ribbon, but well down into the ribbon's width. I know 3M$ has talked about folding the sweatband, but it appears to me that the sweat has just been cut down in width. Anyways, here is the pic.

Thoughts? Fedora

Oops, after seeing the size of this shot, you may have to save the image and then enlarge it to see the details.

Hemingway Jones · Post by **Hemingway Jones** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:03 pm

I do have a thought! I was looking at a pic maybe a few frames after that one. It is the one that shows that mushroom shape that everyone is after. I noticed that the rounded bulge on the side of the crown seems to follow, exactly, the curvature of Mr. Ford's skull. This supports your idea that the sweat was cut down, thus putting more skull in direct contact with felt and 3K's assertion that the hat was supper tight. Also, the crown in this hat doesn't seem very wide across.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:21 pm

This is funny, because I discussed this very subject with a fellow COW member the other day.

Here's what I think: Zoom in on this hat, once you have it on screen. You'll notice, that there's a thin "line" beneath the ribbon... I believe this to be the stitches from the sweatband sewn in and that the ribbon might just have moved up the crown a bit. If the ribbon was NOT put as tight on the hat as we are used to, Ford's slightly too big head would have caused the lower sweatband area to push out most - which again would make the ribbon slide upwards. Just a bit, but perhabs enough. Due to the "oversize" of Ford's head, it would still be tight...

Just my two cts.,

Marc

The real Henry · Post by **The real Henry** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:49 pm

Couldn't it be that they just did the same like an Indy-fan(sorry don't remember his name) who put a string around the hat and got a result that looked exactly like in the SoC-scenes! The problem is, that it works just on untapered hats(AB!!!!). I did on my Akubra and got a little worse results, but it makes an Indy-fedora really more SoC-looking!

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:55 pm

Sorry, but no. I remember the string trick you're talking about and it works great and I think that credit is due to whomever invented it, but to think that the custome department wrapped a string around the crown to archieve a particular look (which they couldn't have seen elsewhere at this time) is just too far out for my taste...

Regards,

Marc

The real Henry · Post by **The real Henry** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:04 pm

It's not that unbelieveble. If you look at the famous photo from the Cairo swordsman scene you can see a line just over the ribbon on the front pinch and a bit on the sides! My Akubra looked like that a few weeks after I put the string on it!

prairiejones · Post by **prairiejones** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:41 pm

My theory has always been that they were trying to make the hat as tight as possible for Cairo/Truck chase. So, they tightened the ribbon and put a couple of pieces of foam in the sweat. Just my two cents.

GrailHunter · Post by **GrailHunter** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:51 pm

Ford used to complain about the jacket and hat causing him distress throught filming in Tunisia, due to the heat. As you all must know after wearing your hats constantly in all climates, it is sooo tempting to reduce the contact our foreheads have with the sweatband. Maybe they gave in and did indeed trim it to reduce the irritation.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:45 pm

Save the pic and then enlarge it, zooming in on the ribbon. There is something that looks like the top edge of a 1 inch wide sweat showing itself through the ribbon. It runs across the entire front of the hat. The ribbon above this line appears to be recessed, as if it is hitting a firmer structure underneath the felt. Fedora

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:59 pm

Fedora wrote:is old hat really.

Hee hee, milners humour!

VP · Post by VP » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:59 am

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:15 am

I'm kind of agreeing with Marc on this one. It looks like the ribbon has just moved up the hat. There seems to be the stitching on the brim(but what should be the base of the crown, you know the 90 degree bend.) It might just be an illusion.

I just think if they did anything with the sweatband , it was to fold it in half. I think cutting it is just too wierd of an option.

have a nice day.

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:24 pm

Please, Harrison, if you are reading this thread, ANYTHING you can remember about this hat would be greatly appreciated

Thank you in advance........................

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm

I think it's too big a lump to be just a cut sweat, but it could be a cut sweat with some stuffing behind it. I favor a folded sweat, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a folded sweat with stuffing behind it. I guess it could be a regular sweat with a length of stuffing with a sharp edge. Vic Armstrong's Raiders stunt hat had a narrow sweat.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:44 pm

Maybe it was a swelling of Harrison's head caused by an overly tight hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:52 am

I just think if they did anything with the sweatband , it was to fold it in half. I think cutting it is just too wierd of an option.

Funny how we can think so differently. To me, folding a sweat is weird!

Imagine the HJ sweat got wet from the sweat of Ford. It shrunk up, and it did so with the ribbed structures that happens at times when leather shrinks from being exposed to mucho sweat. Those washboard wrinkles, or a couple of them could be the tow lumps you see in the photo.

I think it's too big a lump to be just a cut sweat, but it could be a cut sweat with some stuffing behind it. I favor a folded sweat, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a folded sweat with stuffing behind it.

I am not saying this is not a fact, but, it seems to me to be a long shot as hats shrink in the heat and sweat, instead of growing larger.

Now, if the sweat had shrunk to where it was giving Ford a headache, I could see how cutting the top 1/4 inch of the sweat off with a pair of scissors, would be an easy way of getting rid of the tightness, as many sweats are closer fitting at the top of the sweat.

I guess what makes me think the sweat is cut down is it just jumps out at me, the way you seem to be able to see the top of the sweat, through the ribbon. And, even if the ribbon slid up, it does not look to be in the same proportion. Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:56 pm

Something just occurred to me. I remember stills from the infamous "Lucus warehouse" which showed a couple of Indy hats. I don't remember seeing anything along the lines of a cut or folded sweat. If they did such a thing, would'nt they have done it on most of the hats?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:04 am

I wonder how possible is that I missed this thread, I think the COW fellow Marc was talking about it's me

I've been so interested in this topic

binkmeisterRick wrote:I remember stills from the infamous "Lucus warehouse" which showed a couple of Indy hats.

What's the infamous Lucus warehouse? Were they RAIDERS hats?

VP · Post by VP » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:24 am

He probably means the clip somebody filmed while visiting the Lucas warehouse at the Skywalker Ranch.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:26 am

VP wrote:He probably means the clip somebody filmed while visiting the Lucas warehouse at the Skywalker Ranch.

mmh I didn't know about this video... is it available somewhere?

VP · Post by VP » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:28 am

AFAIK it isn't.

Ghos7a55assin · Post by **Ghos7a55assin** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:08 am

If you search for the bootleg copies of Star Wars Original Trilogy on eBay made from the Laserdisc, the bonus disc has the Lucas Warehouse tour.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:51 pm

Funny how we can think so differently. To me, folding a sweat is weird!

I have to agree. I think the anser will most likely be the most simple out of all explanations.
I will admit I've only skimmed this thread but I didn't see any mention of tape. I thought it was pretty well known that HF used dbl-sided tape to keep the hat on. Perhaps some of that was folded over?

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:38 pm

prairiejones wrote:My theory has always been that they were trying to make the hat as tight as possible for Cairo/Truck chase. So, they tightened the ribbon and put a couple of pieces of foam in the sweat. Just my two cents.

I'm with prairiejones here; Feds with the foam strip inside the sweat show very similar deformation. Maybe they put a little strip of leather or something else inside the sweat to tighten the fit, but I find that's the easiest way to get that exact look, and it would make sense for the action scenes...

Antone

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:01 pm

TAPE. They used two sided tape.

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:04 am

Yeah, I've always heard they used double sided tape.

I've been tempted to try that myself just to see how it would look and work on my hat. The problem is that I don't want to ruin the hat either.

I think were all trying to duplicate something that came to be through a combination of things that gave this hat a particular look.

Rusty Jones · Post by **Rusty Jones** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:30 am

Hmm, perhaps if everyone posted pictures of their own fedoras under the treatment they suspect was given to original Raiders', then we can look at each and find a consensus on which one is, if not the most guaranteed accurate, at least the most apparently accurate method…

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:53 am

agent5 wrote:TAPE. They used two sided tape.

I never said they didn't use tape.

However it would have to have been very thick tape and a soft sweatband for it to be noticeable through the hat. They might also have put something inside the sweatband to make the hat tighter, in addition to the adhesives, to help the hat stay on.

Just a thought.

Antone

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:32 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Something just occurred to me. I remember stills from the infamous "Lucus warehouse" which showed a couple of Indy hats. I don't remember seeing anything along the lines of a cut or folded sweat. If they did such a thing, would'nt they have done it on most of the hats?

I believe those were all LC hats left over from the shoot. I don't recall seeing anything like tape or cuts of the sweats when the camera scanned the insides of the linings. Regardless, they weren't Raiders HJ's anyway.

Regards! Michaelson

VP · Post by VP » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:39 am

I thought the warehouse hats had the Pentagon crest while the LC hats had the oval crest?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:45 am

Could be. I only recall the camera man stating it was all LC overage, including the jackets, so that's what I'm basing my statement on. Since he was one of the warehouse curators at the time, I'd think he'd know...but we've learned on many occasions that's not always the case...haven't we.

Regards! Michaelson

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:56 am

Again and again...

-Do you believe, Marcus?...

Regards,
Swindiana

Pitfall Harry · Post by **Pitfall Harry** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:27 am

What's the trick with the string people were mentioning above?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:08 pm

I don't have a clear idea about this issue but I post a picture that might help possibly some theory (dont know which one)...

What I can see is a deep channel under the ribbon. It goes (to my eyes) below the (yellow) line considered by many to be the sweater.
Since I'm not a hat expert I live up to you the conclusions.

In the pictures I've seen I never noticed that (yellow) line on the left side of the hat... maybe a coincidence and i don't know what does it mean.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:14 pm

The line of the front crease seem to go under the ribbon, and stop when it meets something.........That something looks like the edge of a narrow sweatband, to me. So, if it is not, what else could it be? If a piece of foam, like we use to snug up a large hat, was used, this would not explain it. That downward crease hits something under the felt, right where the top edge of a narrow sweat would be. I think this is what 3M$ saw, and thought it to be a folded sweatband. So, to my eye, it is either a narrow sweatband, or a folded one. Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:29 pm

I am thinking Lucas digitally added all this stuff to the DVD's just to give us here at COW something to obsess over and also to ensure we do not get an accurate hat. Ford's hat is a pristine condition, off-the-shelf Poet.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:40 pm

Using that logic , Rick, it's also likely it was a Dorfman all along, and HJ had NO input what so ever. The horror!!!!

Regards! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:48 pm

Fedora wrote:The line of the front crease seem to go under the ribbon, and stop when it meets something.........That something looks like the edge of a narrow sweatband, to me.

I imagined something similar... so if the lower line is a narrow sweatband... that would say that the sweatband was thinner than the ribbon (although in that picture the ribbon was up a bit) and the other question is what's that top line (the yellow one)?

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:53 pm

Michaelson wrote:Using that logic , Rick, it's also likely it was a Dorfman all along, and HJ had NO input what so ever. The horror!!!!

Regards! Michaelson

...or that he was not even wearing a hat.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:32 pm

Wow. Now THAT'S a scary concept....

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:52 pm

Michaelson wrote:Wow. Now THAT'S a scary concept....

Regards! Michaelson

So the hat was all blue-screen...like the Sorting Hat? I'm picturing Indy's hat breaking into song...

I wore my DP with the sweat folded, and it really warped the top - but since it was so tapered to begin with, it wasn't a good example of if that would cause the mushroom effect. Still, I did have a ridge under the ribbon like that...I'll have to dig for pics one of these nights.

J

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:32 pm

What about this theory? Two sided foam. 1" x 1/4". That way the hat has some padding to tighten it up on his head and tape on both sides to help keep it on.

Thoughts?

Indiana Jerry · Post by **Indiana Jerry** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:13 pm

agent5 wrote:What about this theory? Two sided foam. 1" x 1/4". That way the hat has some padding to tighten it up on his head and tape on both sides to help keep it on.

Thoughts?

It would certainly do the same thing. How much would that compress? I cut a strip of leather approx 1/2" wide and slip it in the sweat - probably be about the same width.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:54 pm

My vintage HJ is taking on the same look as that last pic. It is distressing out quickly, from just wearing it.

This has got to be very close to the exact same felt used on the Raiders hat. It just mimics the look too easily to be otherwise.

Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:04 pm

It looks very good Steve! You're very lucky to own one.

Can I ask you how thick is the felt and how floppy it is? How the front pinch arched so much?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:12 pm

Can I ask you how thick is the felt and how floppy it is? How the front pinch arched so much?

Not sure on the thickness, but less than 2mm. The front pinch just got that way way from grabbing it by the pinch as I put it on. Fedora

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:23 pm

Wow, that is one great looking hat Steve!

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:13 am

Most impressive Steve!

I got a reverse taper on my personal hat - very similar yours - which is impossible to archive without turning the hat. I reckon if I'd grap the hat at the pinch while wearing a pair of Wells Lamont, it would look like that within a short time. But then again I prefer grapping it at the brim (AS SUPPOSED TO

).

Regards,

Marc

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:22 am

I got a reverse taper on my personal hat - very similar yours - which is impossible to archive without turning the hat.

My Optimo does that without the turn. I believe it's due to it being a little too tight of a fit.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:35 am

This is another picture that MIGHT proove the sweatband was thinner than the ribbon but I would like to hear the experts (Steve and others) first.

The narrow sweat on the Cairo hat........

The narrow sweat on the Cairo hat........

Re: The narrow sweat on the Cairo hat........