Club Obi Wan

I'm thinking the Raiders hat was a 360 stovepipe. Fedora and Mark experimented with this type of block and so have I, but we got too full a crown. However.....look at this shot, where the hat is high on Harrison's head. The crown looks TOO SMALL to even fit. We see Ford putting the hat on twice, The Sunset shot on top of the Well of Souls, and the Buonus DVD in the WACO biplane. They are both very similar. In the Sunset shot, he hooks the front on his brow with his left hand holding the front of the crown and pulls the back down by the brim with his right hand, then he switches both hands to the front of the brim and snugs the front down. It's obvious the hat is an EXTREMELY tight fit. I used to think they possibly put extra stuffing in sweatband just to keep the hat on in the high wind in that shot----but the hat looks just as tight in the WACO. He uses BOTH hands on the back of the brim to pull the back down first, then BOTH hands closer to the front of the brim to pull the front down- Even the tightest hat I own I put on just with one hand on the front pinch! SO, what we think is caused by some taper in the front and back of the block, is only there because the bottom of the hat is being stretched? Consider this HJ of Fedora's that is like his AB's blockwise and the Raider's hat on the Wizard's table. The front of the film hat is more vertical. You could say the front dents aren't as deep or perhaps there is side taper, but I think the one from Raiders is a 360 stovepipe... probably too tight to be worn comfortably.

I believe that the original block was an open crown block with an ever so slight front and back taper. That's what Steve's vintage HJ has as well, when un-bashed (UNWORN). The top crease makes the front and the back straighten up on this felt.

Regards,

Marc

There's not a lot more taper in the HJ block than in a 360 stovepipe, but I think you can see the difference in the comparison there. The front of the Raiders hat is more vertical, the front of Fedora's HJ breaks and angles back.

First of all i would like to say that your posts are always interesting and as usual here the counteargument for ya :

3thoubucks wrote:The front of the Raiders hat is more vertical, the front of Fedora's HJ breaks and angles back.

...and what about all the other thousands pics where the hat breaks in the front and angles back exactly like Fedora's vintage HJ?

and well anyway it does make an angle actually... have a look

You just quoted me saying More vertical- not vertical. Yeah, it breaks when Ford wears it because the bottom gets stretched. ...... Bottom line, People order comfortable AB's. If you ordered an INCREDIBLY TIGHT one, it would taper when worn and no longer look Raiders like. The Raiders hat was INCREDIBLY TIGHT in my opinion, considering the huge effort Ford put into putting it on.

...but Steve's vintage HJ has that break UN-worn...

The leather could have shrunk quite a bit from all the sweat and heat in Tunis. That wouldn't make the hat change its look, but it would CERTAINLY add to the tightness.

Regards,

Marc

This shot makes me think the block had no front and back taper- just a feeling I get looking at it.

Still couterargumenting ... if it's really a stovepipe... where are the "classic" marks that you showed in other threads? It looks very smooth in that pic. No orizontal marks

:post:
I've never seen the pic you just posted.

but i still see a little taper on the front sorry

The only time there's no taper in the front is when it's open crown- it's front pinched there. You can't see any detail in the bow either, but it's there.

Lets compare apples to apples here. I will get the HJ out of storage and make the front dents like the ones on the Raiders hat you showed. I think some of that kickback on the vintage HJ is from the front bashes, or ceases being really deep. If you look at the silhouette of Indy in the tent with Sallah and Marion, after the excape from the Well of Souls, you will see a nice kickback, while the hat is on his head. It may be the degree, or depth of the fronts creases, but stay tuned. I live for this stuff!! Fedora

What I think is the biggest drawback to these arguments is that people try to take new hats and do things to them that just can't be done artificially. 3K$ is into the Cairo/Desert Chase look based on all the posts of his that I have read. And I'm not arguing against you, please don't misinterpret me; but you just can't take a new hat and carefully shape it to look like a hat that has been through stunts, fights, and being messed with in between scenes. If you want the hat to look like a screen hat, I say go do some somersaults while wearing it. See what it looks like after some more "authentic" treatment.

I think 3thou is on to something here, which I have been thinking about for a while. I'm thinking particularly of the SOC look here too. I've heard a number of people mention how the reverse taper that shows up there is a result of a cinched ribbon with the sweatband removed, and I just don't buy it. I've found the best way to get the SOC profile is to put both hands inside the hat and gently pull the front away from the back. Even my Akubra looks very Cairo this way; when pulled low on the head you get the front and back taper seen from the side in the bar with Belloq, and slight reverse taper as seen from the front, plus you can get the same stretched ribbon look, and the brim curls in exactly the same way!

In short, I think a major component of the Cairo look comes from the hat being really tight on HF's head, and the subsequent distortion of the crown. Perhaps the sweatband shrank a little from the combination of heat and sweat, hard to say. In any case, I think it would be worth a shot to try a block without taper on the front and back and wear it tight; I'm sure this would give you a great pre-Cairoed hat!

Antone

3thoubucks wrote:You just quoted me saying More vertical- not vertical. Yeah, it breaks when Ford wears it because the bottom gets stretched. ...... Bottom line, People order comfortable AB's. If you ordered an INCREDIBLY TIGHT one, it would taper when worn and no longer look Raiders like. The Raiders hat was INCREDIBLY TIGHT in my opinion, considering the huge effort Ford put into putting it on.

Hey 3thoubucks, I agree with the tight hat theory for the SOC hat. See?

I've posted this observation since Indyfan.com, and it's still not taken root.

I wish you all luck with THIS round of discussion...

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:I've posted this observation since Indyfan.com, and it's still not taken root.

I wish you all luck with THIS round of discussion...

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson,

I was aware when I posted that I didn't invent that theory; my apologies, I should have given credit. I merely meant that my experience supports this theory.

Antone

Nothing to apologize for, my friend. It's just interesting that things tend to disappear into the past, then reappear as 'new' quite often around here.

Regards! Michaelson

Here is the last vintage HJ that I got with the same block shape as the other HJ that 3M$ posted the pic of. This one here has not been artificially distressed. I have worn it everyday since I got it a few months ago, in the rain too. It has been wet several time. My distressing amounted to just wearing it, and when I get inside, I just chunk it toward a hat hook.




Now here is the other HJ. I tried to get the front creases more shallow to see if it would straighten up the front tilt. This hat has great memory, and it wants to return to its original shape which inhibits the exercise.








Here is a side shot of my daily hat. The front creases are in really deep, and I did not try to get this one to be straighter in the front. This hat just grew into this shape.

We're talking about a small difference here, so we should only see a small difference. The Raiders hat has some back tilt while your HJ doesn't, plus your front pinch looks gentle. Note the sharp corner on the top of the pinch on the Raiders hat and the rounded corner on yours. ...Anyway- I'll bet you don't use two hands on the brim to pull the back of the crown down onto your head, then slide your hands forward and pull the front of the hat on, like we see Harrison do. But Fedora- who would want to wear a hat that tight anyway? A Beaver AB is probably the best way to get comfort and film looks.

I should have dropped the back down lower on that HJ, and then pushed the front down a bit to maintain the same proportions as the hat you posted. I will do it in a bit just to see. The felt on this vintage HJ is stiffened somewhat, and quite a bit more than the other HJ that I pictured here. My daily HJ is very soft and floppy. As Marc and I discovered(along with others, I am sure), the characteristics of the felt itself acutually has more influence on the final look than one would assume. I am still surprised by it. Fedora

Here's a hat I blocked on this stovepipe block

Looking good 3thoubucks! Would you mind posting a front view of that particular hat?

Regards,

Marc

It's a floppy Tonak, Marc. Not much brim left after blocking, so I never tried to shape it. It's been sitting with a hand formed telescope for 6 weeks now, you can see the lines and distortion.

It's a floppy Tonak, Marc.

That's what I feared. Most theories that work on a low quality rabbit felt, just don't work with a better one and the vintage HJs I've seen so far DID have a nice quality felt.

The taper is quite a bit at this front shot...

Perhaps one day I can afford to send you one of my rawbodies, so you could see the difference and experiment with that. Six eyes see more than four

Regards,

Marc

It's a floppy Tonak,

Ah yes. I would wager if that body was a stiff felt, you would have less reverse taper on the back. I discovered this same thing a couple years ago. The only thing was I ended up with too much reverse taper on the back of the hat when I used soft floppy felt on the perfectly straight block. I could then block a stiff hat on the same block and I would get a straight back, no reverse taper. So, if you are trying to replicate a particular look, and you want to really nail it as close as possible, you must tweak your blocks to compensate for the type of felt you are gonna be using. Change your felt drastically, and you may, I say may, have to tweak your blocks again to work with the new felt. There is an important relationship there between type of felt and blockshape. And, this is one of the reason why lots of folks have a hard time replicating any type of hat to the degree that we demand it. Several variables come into play. If you have what you know to be the exact block shape of a particular hat, you best have the same type of felt with the exact characteristics of the original felt or you will come up short. Fedora

Ok, here is the hat with the back creased down. Reverse taper. Look at the bottom of the ribbon, and then look at the top of the crown, front and back. Some serious reverse taper going on here.
Fedora

OK, Fedora. On my screen I measure the crown base front, to crown base back of your HJ at 37 mm on my screen, and the top front to top back corners at 37 mm also. The Raiders hat measures 63mm base... 66mm top.

OK, Fedora. On my screen I measure the crown base front, to crown base back of your HJ at 37 mm on my screen, and the top front to top back corners at 37 mm also. The Raiders hat measures 63mm base... 66mm top.

Someone else measure! I can't get the same results!! I get reverse taper, and quite a bit, on the back of the hat, visibly. And this is from a block shape that does have some taper built into the block. I know, from experience, that if the original blockshape of this particular HJ was stovepiped, the reverse taper on the back of this hat, would make your eyes bleed. I think the film's hat reverse taper was a particular, and peculiar relationship between the shape of the dome, and the degree of taper(not much taper, but some taper) on the front and back of the hat. Then, the correct, or original radius of the curvature, front and back comes into play. With that said, I am fully aware that not only one block shape is capable of lending a decent looking Raiders fedora. And, I also realize that your stovepipe block does lend a great Raiders fedora. I went there a couple of years ago but when I saw the extreme amount of reverse taper on the back of the experimental hats, I moved on to a more traditional approach, brought on by looking at many different existing vintage blockshapes. I, and Marc, came to the conclusion that the original did have some taper on the front and back, but much less than many traditonal blocks. Then, when I actually saw hat blocks that featured only a slight amount, that sort of nailed it for me. I learned of the relationship of the front and back radius, with the dome and the degree of taper, and came up with a block design that yielded good results. Then, when this vintage HJ came into my hands, I saw basically the same shape that we had reverse engineered. I figured we had hit a home run. What we must guard against is making a caricature of the Raiders fedora.(by overemphasizing certain aspects) I think we must really look at all of the Raiders fedoras, and not concentrate on just one particular profile. Not all of the Raiders fedoras featured a highly visible reverse taper. So, when trying to duplicate the hat, we must be sure that our blockshape is capable of producing the looks of all of the hats, and not just one. Afterall, one blockshape did create all of those looks that we see in the films. That I can get reverser taper with a tapered block shape, should say something. Regards, Fedora

hey Steve can you take a shot of that vintage HJ from the front ( with that same front to back reverse tapper on it). I deappend my center dent ( on my AB ) to the same but, got a little tapper on the sides but, when I pulled down on the inside front to back as if it where on my head it got that nice reverse tapper look.
I think maybe both of you could be right. That Steve got the right shape and that the hat was really tight on Fords head.
I don't really jump on these thread as not to get in the way of you experts but, you guys got me to thinking.

Oops, I had already taken the hat back to my storage building. But, it did have some taper as viewed from the front. Like you, I cannot drop my blocked hats down too low in the back, that is, past the point where it looks too low, when compared to the film hats. You get past a certain point, and the hat starts to **** in and taper. Now, on a really super soft, vintage Borsalino type felt, this does not occur. Alot of it has to do with the felt itself. And of course, the open crown height figures into the equation as well.

3M$, I like the way the styrofoam block looks!! Really, you cannot go wrong with that block, and it will produce a killer Raiders fedora, but other shapes will as well, and that was my point. Now, I have a question. How did you carve that out of styrofoam? Is it a particular type of material, unlike what one would see used in a styrofoam cooler? A finer grain? And, where did you find it? It would be a great medium for me to design some vintage blockshapes that are hard to find, and then use the model to make wooden blocks. regards, Fedora

Sorry Fedora. I did a REALLY bad job of measuring. In fact, I'd say your HJ is EXACTLY the same as the film hat. I feel like a chump... can't believe I did that. I guess I was just seeing what I wanted to see. The quarter inch of glass between the ruler and the screen made it easier...Yeah, that's like cooler material. It's a giant piece used for wall insulation, that I got at Home Depot. It's 2 inches thick and I used 4 layers held together with a little low temp hot glue.

I just realized a few things. Look at the top of the Raiders hat. You can only see the front of the far top hump. We're not looking at a profile- the front of the hat is turned toward the camera. With that in mind and looking at the bow, I think the hat may already have the Raiders turn in this scene. Fedora's HJ shot is a square profile. My stovepipe has more reverse taper than his HJ unturned, but loses taper when turned. I tried to get the camera angle the same.

no prob. Steve. I really should stay out of these thread and leave it to the experts.

no prob. Steve. I really should stay out of these thread and leave it to the experts.

Not at all my friend. Please, all are welcomed in these discussions. Many times, two nitpicky folks can miss things, as they zero in on certain aspects. It is up to you guys to see what was perhaps obvious, and then call us on it!! Honestly, some of us(like myself) will never be satisfied with the results of the quest. Heck, most of the fun is the trip, and not the destination! Regards, Fedora