Is it the True??

giovanniceleste · Post by **giovanniceleste** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:22 am

Is it the True?? (sorry for my bad english)

On the web I have read this:
“…..The original bullwhips were the personal property of stunt coordinator Glenn Randall and allegedly they were around 8 feet in length. These whips were made by David Morgan, arguably one of the greatest whip makers in the United States. According to some sources, the whips in Raiders were not made with the traditional kangaroo hide due to U.S. import restrictions at the time.
For the sequels, the production company hired David Morgan to provide bullwhips for the films. These new bullwhips were dyed a much darker brown than the original whips in Raiders and made from kangaroo hide.”

If so, the first whips used for the R.O.T.L.A are not made with the roo hide.
Is it the possible??
http://www.theraider.net/information/in ... llwhip.php

Regards Giò

Darth V.A.D.E.R · Post by **Darth V.A.D.E.R** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:53 am

I dont now nothing about cow hides bullwhips in Indy,
I think every whip was made in roo hide,tan colour and
length of standard whip was 10ft....
Something like this is write on Morgan site....

Regards
Darth
P.S: sorry for my english too...

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:40 pm

It is a very real possibility that the bullwhips in 'Raiders' were made from English Kip. A calf skin that is of similar weight and thickness to kangaroo but lacks the tensile strength. Morgan has stated this himself. The time period is right but even DM is unsure of which leather was used.

However, the 'Raiders' used bullwhip that Sergei inspected and documented a while back seemed to be constructed from kangaroo.

We will probably never know for sure.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:02 pm

I read that site too

but had heard that information before. With out being able to inspect all the bullwhips used, They’re is no way to be sure. The ban on the importation of kangaroo products in America started 1974, and was then lifted in 1981. The numbers match so it is very possible many of them could have been made from English calfskin. Though it appears at least some of the bullwhips Glen Randall had in his possession for filming where roo hide.

I would Like to know where they received their information that the bullwhips made for the later films where dyed a darker brown. Aside from the Bullwhip used in the young Indy sequence of LC, I have my doubts.

Dan

Nearadyn · Post by **Nearadyn** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:57 am

I suppose that it may be possible that some of the whips in Raiders could've been made of something other than roo hide. However, There is no other leather besides roo which when made into a whip of that design which could support a man's weight. Cow hide simply can't do it. Now it is possible that the scene in the beginning of Raiders where Indy swings across that pit was done using something that was merely made to look like a whip; but I don't think that was the case. I once tried swinging on a 6 plait cow hide whip that was fairly well made for a cow whip. It didn't work to say the least. I weighed 190 pounds at the time. Now, 7 years later, I weigh 220 and my David Morgan whip will hold my weight. Not that I would ever swing on it! It's too expensive. But I have tested it by gently hanging on it once just to see if it would, and it wasn't even a problem.
But I think there is no way to say for sure that cow hide whips weren't used at least part of the time in Raiders. After all, they are cheaper than roo, and maybe they were used for the scenes where they might have got totally destroyed. (getting dragged under the truck?)
Nearadyn

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:02 am

Actually the ban on the importation of roo hide started with the Carter administration, 1976. It was soon lifted when Reagan took office in 1981. Morgan started braiding his own whips during the ban in fear that he could not source his whips from Austrailia. He learned his whip making skills from the great Aussie whipmaker, Tom Hill Sr. He used mostly kip during those years and of course any roo stock he may have been left over. I discussed this in detail with David Morgan - face to face. As well as Edge, as he noted above. One of the mods David made was to make a more traditional American style bullwhip with a shorter handle than Tom Hill made. However, the rest of the design was true Aussie. The knots, the turk head, were David's unique touch. They were more bulbous than the more intricate Aussie knots.

So quick answer. The Raiders whip I examined, which came from Glenn Randall's stash, was definitely roo.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:24 pm

The United States ban on the import of Kangaroo products went into effect in December 1974 when the Red, Western Grey and the Eastern Grey kangaroos were listed as a threatened species by the U.S. The ban ended in April of 1981

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-SPECIES ... r-176.html

Dan

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:11 am

Yep, indeed Dan is correct. December, 1974 was the date of the ban. Dan and me corresponded. I read the article posted about the endangered species act that affected importing roo hides a while ago. Somehow, I remembered the date to be 1976. Nevertheless, it is (was) quite strange to believe that kangaroos were so endangered. All it takes is to drive around Australia, as I did, and see that they were so ubiquitous as our deer population in North American - hardly endangered. If someone "downunder" could explain the rationale.... Was there indeed a shortage in the 70's?

Simon Martin · Post by **Simon Martin** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:14 am

G'day Everyone

I've done a bit of research and found an interesting article http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/publicati ... addick.pdf

It's a very long article, and I only scan read it myself, but I picked out a few interesting bits.
Page 11 say's there are currently estimated to be 58.6 million Kangaroo's in Australia. That's a few hey!

There are currently 1,800 commercial shooter's in Australia.
1982-83 there was the worst drought on record and numbers halved.

Page 24 is what we are looking for and it mentioned the USA listing the Kangaroo as a threatened species 1974-1981. Here's a quote from page 24 "This ban on exports by importing countries during the 1970's was due to poor meat quality, contamination and parasite infestation and resulted in reduced harvest oftake."

Page 85 show's that Italy and Germany imports the most Kangaroo skins each year with Italy taking 497,752 in a recent year. Russia takes over a million roo's for meat consumpion each year.

Hope this has helped answer the question.

Sergei, I would really like to know how to be recognized as a Vendor on this forum. It would be much appreciated if you could let me know.

Kind Regards
Simon
www.whipmaker.com.au

genexs · Post by **genexs** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:42 am

In the second edtion of David Morgan's "Whips and Whipmaking", on page 106:

"The fist few whips were made using calf or kip, but after the embargo on kangaroo was lifted, only kangaroo was used (excet for fillers and blosters that were made of kip)."

But no dates are given.

best,
Gene

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:40 am

Thanks for posting the link to that article Simon.

By the way I just had a chance to look over your website. Those are some gorgeous looking whips your making.

Dan

Simon Martin · Post by **Simon Martin** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:31 am

G'day Dan

Yes, it is an interesting article, except it is very, very long.

Thanks for the thumbs up on my website. I'm only 23 so I've still got many years of learning.

Kind Regards

Simon

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:35 am

Only 23, your making me feel old! I’ve been cracking whips almost as long as you’ve been around.

Seriously though, it is great to see the younger generations like yourself taking an interest crafting high quality whips. Regards.

Dan