Club Obi Wan

Hello, i just received an AB beaver from Pagey so i decided to take some comparative pics.

First of all i should say that pagey's beaver was being a bit overused and has a bit of taper (that i tried to fight working on the creast... i hope "creast" is the correct word... maybe center dent?)

So here the pics of the two hats. On the right you have the AB beaver (cairo style i think) and on the left my first AB (rabbit) raven style but a bit modified lately.







who spoke about a gray hat in ROTLA? this is posted for my dear Texas Rider, hard believer of the brown hat in the airplane scene in raiders

Nice pictures! You own one of Pageys AdventureBilts?! COOL! Post some pictures of the hats on your head. Just not of them both on your head at the same time.

Is that the hat that Pagey had in the classifieds?

Indiana Wayne wrote:Nice pictures! You own one of Pageys AdventureBilts?! COOL! Post some pictures of the hats on your head. Just not of them both on your head at the same time.

thank you, yes it's a Pagey's one. I'll post pics with them (not at the same time), as soon as possible, in the next days

prairiejones wrote:Is that the hat that Pagey had in the classifieds?

Yep

Looks very different from my raven bar rabbit. My raven bar seems to be taller although when i compare them one next to the other they are amlost similar height.Weird.

I'll write a review of the two as soon as possible on this thread. First i need to use them a bit.

Pagey, when you're back to Gratz drop me a PM, i have to ask you what a bad time that poor hat spent with you!
Very nice hat thank you pagey

nice hat erri, i almost bought that hat from pagey.it definetly looks different then it does in the pics with pagey but it looks like a great hat never the less.now you can say you own both kinds of Adventurebilts.are you going to get it reblocked, you should send it to steve so he can make it like a new hat.enjoy the hat my friend.
Best Regards,
Joe

Jpevh wrote:are you going to get it reblocked, you should send it to steve so he can make it like a new hat.

Don't know. it would nearly cost me like a new beaver hat (if i consider how much i paid for it and if i consider the cost of the reblock, the shipping and the taxes on the shipping ).

I might reduce the taper if i only could tighten the ribbon but it seems to be very dangerous for a beginner

erri-wan, Maybe you should check out if marc is reblocking hats ( Adventurebilt deluxe ).

jpenman wrote:erri-wan, Maybe you should check out if marc is reblocking hats ( Adventurebilt deluxe ).

He does but the reblock work is 50 euro shipping included (Steve is $35 shipping included i think, that is less than 35 euro)... although Marc is in EU so i wont have to pay 40 euro in taxes for it... i'll think more about it in the next days.

euro I have no idea the exchange of money. If you do please let me know.

Currently: 1 Euro = 1.22243 US dollars

50 EURO = 60,905 dollars

(Steve is $35 shipping included i think,

I believe Steve gets $35 for a rebuild (new ribbon, liner, sweat, etc) but if the same parts can be used, it's less. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Steve.

I would get that hat reblocked for sure.

jpenman wrote: euro I have no idea the exchange of money. If you do please let me know.

Jpenman:
Euro Conversion

spooky, now thats a answer ( thanks ).

Ok let's say something about the two kind of felt

Beaver felt seems to be smoother than the rabbit and even thinner. The weight is aproximately the same (maybe the rabbit is slightly more heavy).
I know that the original indiana jones hats were made of rabbit but the beaver felt-look seems to be more screen-accurate than the rabbit.

Considering that the beaver hat was overused and my rabbit has always been threated like a children i cannot say who's softer and who's better shapeable.

That's what i can notice by now.

My last consideration, i dont know if beaver is a lot better than the rabbit because actually i cant give a comparation within two brand new hats. I can just say that the beaver is a really nice felt and seems to be more screen accurate than the rabbit felt, maybe HJ rabbits were less rough, i don't really know.

I'm here for any question

regards.

Great pics, Erri! (Nice "grey" showing!). This may be a silly question, but is one ribbon black and one brown?


Once again, there is big taper in that beaver! This really worries me. I'm starting to think the rabbit is more durable than that beaver Fedora has.

Explanation please

thanks,



have a nice day.

Texas Raider wrote:Great pics, Erri! (Nice "grey" showing!). This may be a silly question, but is one ribbon black and one brown?


Once again, there is big taper in that beaver! This really worries me. I'm starting to think the rabbit is more durable than that beaver Fedora has.

Explanation please

Seems that my rabbit ribbon is a little darker (and slightly purple) and the beaver one is very brownish.

Don't worry for the taper. Keep in mind that the rabbit one was threaten like a baby and never met a lot of water or an intensive reshaping. On the other side, Pagey's beaver had really bad times with him. He doesnt baby his hats like me. So it's not felt fault but pagey's

Once again, there is big taper in that beaver! This really worries me. I'm starting to think the rabbit is more durable than that beaver Fedora has

Balderdash. Guys, I have gotten in Abs from last November for reblocks and the hats had never tapered. Beaver ones. I have also gotten in some that were in fact tapered. The difference? I do not have a clue. With that said, only in the movies do you get modern hats that do not taper. It is the nature of the beast. The hat starts out as a cone. You stretch the cone out into a hat shape. You can't ever forget that the hat was once a cone, and the only thing that is keeping it from becoming a cone is a lack of moisture and heat. Once the hat becomes wet(depending upon the saturation factor), the dreaded taper can, and will happen. Remember, the straight sided Indy fedora is just a stretched out cone.

The good thing about my hats, is, they are of a superiour quality felt, and therefore can be reblocked for years. They readily stretch back out, and will hold this shape until something like moisture relaxes the felt and then the drying process shrinks the felt back to some semblance of the original cone. I have discovered that with each reblock, the hat tends to be more resistent to tapering, than when brand new. So, I think as time goes on, the beaver felt will actually become more taper resistent as it ages. A good thing.

Every modern hat that I have ever owned, has tapered. All felt hats taper if exposed to the right conditions, or rather, wrong conditons. That is why every dry cleaner back in the day, offered a reblock service. It was a fact of life. I never ever said that my hats would not taper, but rather if they do, you can have them reblocked countless times over the years instead of just throwing it in the trash. And, it looks more Indyish with each reblock. Better color, softer felt and less prone to the taper as time and reblocks go by.


As far as I know, there is no felt hat, beaver or otherwise, that will not taper with time and wear. I spent years looking for a hat that would not taper, and discovered that the animal does not exist. A fantasy, a trick of the camera. We need to join the real world and accept the fact that a cone of felt will always want to revert. It is a no brainer!!

Vintage hats seem to be almost taper resistent, but I can get them to taper with just water and a fast dry. But, with that said, they do not taper as fast as modern felt. The reason? Age and the death of the felt. New hats are alive, old hats are dead. Alive felt responds to the elements more readily. Dead felt does not. You pounce live felt and you get little clumps of felt. You pounce a vintage hat and you get dust. The vintage hats will only take a minimum amount of reblocks before it comes apart. Fedora

Thanks for posting that again Fedora , people have forgoten you posted that a few times.

Beaver worse than rabbit? I strongly disagree. I have an Akubra federation I wore constantly until I got my beaver AB. The Akubra saw plenty of action and tapered quite noticeably, though it was still wearable, in my opinion. This was over the course of two seasons. My AB has seen MUCH more action in twice the time and it's nowhere NEAR the taper of my Akubra had. Again the taper of my AB is hardly noticeable and disappears when I pop out the bash, meaning it's the pinch that's pulling the hat in. If I pop out the bash of my Akubra, it looks like it's starting to cone in all around. Besides, how many "majorly" tapered ABs have you seen? I can think of only one or two at best, and one looks like it's been "helped" along the way to make it appear that tapered.

bink

Hey guys. I'm a newbie , but I was wondering if one could keep


taper out of a hat if some kind of industrial strength felt stiffener


was applied around the base part of the hat? Or would that wear


off after awhile?

Sure you can....but then you have a hard hat...and that's not reversable or reblockable.


Regards! Michaelson

Thanks for the explanation (again) Fedora . That was going to be my next question- will the taper start slowing down after reblocks? So, the answer being 'yes', that does make sense. I'm no idiot or stranger to how or why a hat tapers. My only concern is the repeated stating of "great quality" beaver felt and yet we are seeing a few of these taper pretty badly. I would think a great quality felt-even new- would still take a bit more abuse or moisture without tapering that fast.

I have yet to see either AB beaver OR rabbit, so I can't compare or even speak about the two. Bink I wasn't saying rabbit was BETTER than beaver. I'm just saying that of the two, we haven't seen as many issues of taper (that I am aware of) with the rabbit. And in these pics, the rabbit looks CLEARLY better.

Fedora- does it maybe have to do with hat size? Are there different sized "cones" used for different hat sizes? Meaning that if a hat has to be stretched more for a larger hat, than a larger 'cone' is used, and smaller hat, smaller 'cone'. So if too small a 'cone' was used, the hat tapers quickly.

I dunno, I'm just guessing. Personally, I have not had ANY tapering problems with my hats. Now I have water-proofed them a few times. They get used regularly, even in rain, with no problems yet. ESPECIALLY my Akubra!(reg). It's still square as a box!

Please don't take this as a critisism, Fedora. I'm really only trying to help . Please take as a critique . Like I said, I'm wanting one of your lids, too! I am really curious to see this newest felt that has been mentioned with Marc working on AB's too. You are going to have this felt as well, correct?


have a nice day.

Texas Raider wrote: in these pics, the rabbit looks CLEARLY better, but even still, it appears slightly tapered too.

Sorry, Erri! I was confused for a moment! I had a different picture on the brain! You're hat is fine! ,no taper there in those pics! I corrected it in my post!


have a nice day.

Texas Raider wrote:Sorry, Erri! I was confused for a moment! I had a different picture on the brain! You're hat is fine! ,no taper there in those pics! I corrected it in my post!


have a nice day.

I got worried for a moment

Texas Raider,
No offense, but it seems you're still missing Steve's point a bit. "Superior quality" felt reffers to the felt itself, NOT to whatever shape it's forced into. The quaulity is in the look, feel and durability of the material itself. Just because the material itself is of superior quality does not mean it will not eventually revert back to its original shape. And compared to lesser quality felts and wool, high quality felt DOES retain its shape far better, but it's not bullet proof.
The only felt fedora I've ever known to not taper is my PB. It's never tapered, and I'ce TORTURED that poor thing. I had it so wet one time that the whole hat started to flatten out like a pancake! I had to put it on my wife's head and wrap vinyl tape around it to keep a shape that even resembled a hat and then stuff it with a towel. I have no clue why it's never tapered. It could be the obscene amount of stiffener that PB uses. But as Michaelson said, that's not a good thing. It was so stiff whaen it was new that the brim actually began to tear away from the crown, using the sweatband stitching as a fault line. This was due largely to abuse, but also largely to it's complete lack of flexibility. Even with all it's been through, it's STILL pretty stiff! And due to the brim being hand stitched to the crown in a few places, it can NEVER be reblocked. It would not survive.
You're much better off having a soft, pliable hat. Sure, it will taper a bit over time. But as Steve said, high quality felt can be reblocked many times and will provide many years of wear.

My only concern is the repeated stating of "great quality" beaver felt and yet we are seeing a few of these taper pretty badly. I would think a great quality felt-even new- would still take a bit more abuse or moisture without tapering that fast.

Shawnkara hit on this point but let me expand, just a little. The statement "great quality felt" is a factual statement. If one equates a very high quality felt with the taper element, then, there is no high quality felt being made today, anywhere in the world. A case that comes to mind is the Heritage quality Akubra. Now, this body is made from the best rabbit felt, or hare felt availiable today. But, with that said, all of my Deluxes tapered faster than the Imperial line. Was the felt finer than the Imperial line? Yes!! But, it also tapered quicker. Now, with that said, my rabbit hats will always taper quicker than the beaver.


You can make any felt less taper prone if you load it down with stiffener, and the PB is a good example. But, even the stiffener will not alleviate the taper demon. I have reblocked scores of PBs that were tapered like a witches cap. So, stiffener will slow it down, but will not stop it.

Fedora- does it maybe have to do with hat size? Are there different sized "cones" used for different hat sizes? Meaning that if a hat has to be stretched more for a larger hat, than a larger 'cone' is used, and smaller hat, smaller 'cone'. So if too small a 'cone' was used, the hat tapers quickly.

You are dead on in the body size affecting the final product. From my manufacturer one body size makes two different sized hats. That is, I use a red string body to make a 7 1/4 and a 7 3/8. I use a yellow stringed body to make a 7 1/2 and 7 5/8. Now, it would be very difficult to make a good looking hat say a size 7 by using a body that was intended for a size 7 1/2. Why? Well, I cannot shrink a beaver body down enough. And one of the major reasons that I scratch my head ever so often with the taper stories. Here in my hat shop, I have tried to save time by just shrinking a hat that the customer thought was too tall, by using steam and heat and water and fast drying. I cannot get the beaver bodies to shrink down in crown height by just using steam and heat. And I have an industrial steamer!! Gobs of heat and steam. I have to literally remake the hat, with the brim break being relocated and the excess hat trimmed off of the brim. Now, if I cannot get the crown to shrink down, how can this same felt taper as quickly as I have heard a couple of folks refer to? Not that I doubt the accounts, it is just that I cannot repeat this extreme taper in my shop using the same bodies. And this puzzles me to no end. Of course, a felt body does not have to shrink much to show a bit of taper, but normally a slight taper can be creased out of a hat. It is only when the taper becomes rather conish that the restyle job has no effect.


Don't sweat it TR. There are no dumb questions. I have been where you are at now, and most old hands here have been there as well. I chased after that "taper proof" felt for years. So far, it has escaped my search. I have owned scores of Akubras and they all tapered. Each and every one of them. The nature of the rabbit felt is when it starts to taper, it goes into overdrive and does it very fast, while beaver generally tapers at a slower rate. There is a difference in the rate.


I have to look at the overall snapshot when I am evaluating my hats. To date, I have made over 400 of these hats. By and large, I get no complaints. I have seen pics of my hats that still looked great, and I have seen pics of my hats that show a good bit of taper. In almost every case of the really tapered ones, something adverse to the felt has happened. Like a saturation with water, or an overuse of steam and heat in a restyle attempt. The hats did not taper sitting in a vacuum. I have as I stated earlier, received hats in for a reblock that had so little taper that I could not see it. Some of these hats were really worn in the inside, with dirty liners and sweat ladened sweatbands. SO, it was apparent the hats had been worn, and worn alot. But no taper. And I have received hats that were tapered, while looking unworn. I think the difference was the steam used by the owner. The worse thing you can do to a felt hat is steam it. Steam relaxes the felt, and does away with the "set" placed into the felt using a dry, hot iron. The next worse thing is saturating the felt with water. As much as we would like them to be, a felt hat is not rain gear, although it can be used as rain gear, but you must live with the taper afterwards. To the old guys of yesteryear and the cowboys, the taper issue was not an issue at all. The most felt friendly block shape is a tapered block used to make a tapered hat. You see lots of these. Only when you stretch the cone into a straight sided hat do you run into the taper issue. And that is because the body is a stretched out cone. It will always revert to that shape, but tends to do it less over time and reblocks. regards, Fedora

THanks Fedora for the exhaustive explanations (i hope that's the proper word for it). Now i understand WHY hats taper and that could be a wee worrying but i prefer to think that every reblock make out a better and durabile hat. That's great isnt it?

Hey guys... today my beaver was worn under a strong rain and hail, then i came back home and it dried naturally and quite quick... seems to dry quicker than the rabbit.

Texas Raider wrote: I have yet to see either AB beaver OR rabbit, so I can't compare or even speak about the two. Bink I wasn't saying rabbit was BETTER than beaver. I'm just saying that of the two, we haven't seen as many issues of taper (that I am aware of) with the rabbit. And in these pics, the rabbit looks CLEARLY better.

Well, TR, I think Fedora pretty well explained it, so I have nothing else to add. No harm done here.

bink

So, over time, all of our hats will look like the one worn by:

Chico Marx!

Hey Erri. I really want you to wear that beaver hat...........so if you can get it here, I will do the reblock/refurbish for free. I think it needs to be resized, downward-right? regards, Fedora

How's THAT for customer service?

bink

Steve, people are going to write songs about you.

Thanks Steve, i sent you a PM for clarifications.. you know.. i still find difficult sometimes to understand all the english words


Anyway guys.. i enjoyed my beaver in the favourite COW sport.... "Sittin' On The Hat" i did that a couple of times

Thanks, Fedora!



have a nice day.

Don't know if i posted this little info before... i'm too lazy to read what i wrote up...

I measured 3 millimeters in the rabbit (0.11811inches) against the beaver thickness 1mm (0.03937inches).

Rabbit thickness is 3 times the beaver! I don't know if this could affect something like the bashing work or the durability of felt or who-knows

erri, the beaver is a much denser felt than the rabbit, so the "thickness" of the felt is not a tell-all sign of the hat's durability. It's kind of like leather. Cowhide is thicker, but goatskin is more durable because of the makeup of the material. Trust me, beaver is more durable than rabbit.

bink

Details, details... So how thick was the original HJ's from Raiders? They were rabbit, right?

Cheers

THe HJs in the movie were rabbit. But, "Indy's" hat (1930's) would have, more than likely, been beaver.

IndyK wrote:Details, details... So how thick was the original HJ's from Raiders? They were rabbit, right?

Cheers

Original HJ was rabbit but not that thick i think. Steve's beaver thikness looks more screen accurate! Maybe they had a lighter rabbit felt.

Look at this image http://mikes-images.co.uk/misc/raiders/ ... mq_135.jpg it's as thick as Steve's beaver.

Sorry for messing up things here, but if one is going for screenaccurate, why choose beaver then? Was the rabbit from HJ so much better in 1980 that they were equal to todays beaver?

Cheers

Do whatever you want. I find the beaver to be better quality. It's always been higher quality than rabbit. It looks just like the hat in the movie, and that's good enough for me.

estetically Indiana Jones hat is closer to the AB beaver than the rabbit one.

Is well known that the beaver is much better quality than the rabbit. Now, it seems that, in 80s, felts were better quality than now so, considering this as a truth... why not take a beaver hat now in year 2005 instead of a rabbit?
Here some argu for the beaver:

1) it's screen accurate (at least thickness is!)
2) it's more durable
3) taper more slowly

argument for the rabbit:

1) it's cheaper! that could count as 3!

That's one other thing I noticed about my beaver. The thickness is dead on Raiders.

erri_wan wrote:
argument for the rabbit:

1) it's cheaper! that could count as 3!

Well that is about the most unserious answer I've seen in here for a long time. So You mean that anyone who pays $175 + shipping for one of Steve's custom bashed rabbit Fedora's has nothing but the price to be happy about? I seriously hope You will reconsider that point.

I'm glad on Your behalf that You are the proud owner of both the rabbit and the beaver AB and following the posts in this Forum it would be very difficult not to know about the beavers many qualities.

But this isn't about being or not being a member of the "beaver-club". It was a simple question about why a beaver today is more screenaccurate than the actual rabbit Fedoras from the film? How can that be, has the quality of rabbit reached a record-low in just 25 years?

Hope to get serious answers this time, not just arguments for the beaver - there's plenty of those in all the Fedora threads allready

Cheers

Seriously... that's a question that only Steve could answer maybe.
I just say that the AB rabbit is thicker than the HJ rabbit. That's it .. all the rest was mostly a joke.

I'm still a proud owner of a rabbit

The reasons I would ever buy an AB over an Akubra is price, block shape, and the fact that it is custom made. The only reason I would buy rabbit AB over beaver AB is price. Money is a serious enough answer for me!

I just say that the AB rabbit is thicker than the HJ rabbit.

I noticed that too. Thing is, both start out with 4 ounces of raw fur. The beaver felts tighter and thinner than the rabbit. I really love the finished thickness of the beaver. Perfect to me for a Raiders fedora.


Rabbit felt indeed was better a few years ago. To me, many pics of the Raiders fedora shows a pretty fine body. I understand that the original was rabbit, but for real world adventures, I would always go with a beaver felt. It just holds up better under real world conditions.

I found out last week from an expert in felt, that pre-1997 Akubras had great rabbit felt. After that, something changed within the company and the felt made since them is much lower in quality than the felt that made Akubra, Akubra. I noticed this myself a few years ago when I had to reblock an old Akubra. I was amazed at the fineness of that rabbit felt, and could not understand why my Akubras were not like that. Now I know. Fedora