Club Obi Wan

Hey all,
Three weeks ago I was in London (the day after the first bombings), and the two things I wanted to do was visit the Herbert Johnson shop to buy THE hat, and also I wanted to travel to Swanley to go to the Wested shop in person for a jacket (a story for the jacket section).
Well, I walked up St. James Street from The Mall, looking visually excited because going to this shop was one of the moments I had been looking forward to for the past two years. I saw the shop. Nowhere were the words, "Herbert Johnson" to be found. Still though, I entered.
There was a pleasent smell of leather there. I looked around, no hat. Someone who works there came up to me and asked to help. I told him that I was looking for the Poet, explaining to him that I am an Indiana Jones fan.
"Of course you are." He said this in a rather unkind tone, but I pretended not to notice. He led me into a corner of the shop. Here I saw them, stacked one on top of the other, with no regard to bash or damage. He then asked me what size head I had. I had no idea, thinking that they would measure me and make a custom-made hat as I had read about. Oh no, of course not, the salesman just started at the top of the pile and handed one to me; no, too small; another, too big. Finally, halfway down the pile, we came to one that fit. I looked inside to see the lining. It wz neither white, nor did it have the circular red insignia; it had the golden lettering. Now the moment of truth.
I walked over to a mirror and looked at myself for the first time. I stood there for a second, shocked. My heart dropped out of me and hit the floor. No, this cannot be right; it's not supposed to look like this. Wait! The bash, yes it must be the bash. I took it off and adjusted it a little bit, then put it back on. It did not look like the hat I knew and loved for so long. To me it looked like a top hat in a weird sort of way. The color was right, but that was the only thing "Indyish" about it.
I then walked over to the counter and took it off. On my forehead were tiny little marks where they had stiched the sweatband. The hat actually kind of hurt me. That shouldn't happenl no hat should hurt. I politley told them that I will think about buying it and maybe come back in a few days. Another one of the people who worked there took the hat, worked with it a little, and, as I was speaking to the gentleman behind the counter, thrust the hat back into my hands and told me that this is how he(Ford) wore it in the movie. I looked at it and thought the way she fashioned it looked like someone had stepped on it. I thanked her for showing me, and I set out of the shop for bigger and better things.

Indiana Jimbo wrote:He led me into a corner of the shop. Here I saw them, stacked one on top of the other, with no regard to bash or damage.

That may not always be the employees' fault. I work in a hat shop, and I can't count the amount of times I have put nice felt hats back in a cubby with care, making sure each hat was of a larger size than the one it was stacked on top of, to avoid ribbon/crown damage, and to preserve the overall look of the hat itself.

I would turn my back to the hats I had just fixed up, and set nicely standing at attention to help a customer with something. Not twenty minutes later, the hats in that cubby had all been tried on, and thrust back into the cubby in whatever way the customer who tried them on decided they wanted to do it. With no consideration to the way they found the hats, or the overall care of the hat they had been trying on. Now multiply this all too regular phenomenon by about 40 different cubbies.

My point is, I can't always get to a cubby to fix it up after a customer has destroyed it before another customer shows up to look at it. Thus, the second customer has the false impression that I, as the employee, don't really care about the hats I'm selling, when nothing could be further from the truth. I love hats. I typically start at one end of the wall to clean them up and make them look nice again, and by the time I've worked my way to the other end of the wall, the hats where I started at are all messed up again. Sometimes I don't notice that a customer has ransacked a cubby. Again, it gives the false (albeit understandable) impression that the employees don't care about the product, when, at least 7 times out of 10 in my estimate, it's the customer who doesn't care.

I've seen customers try on a hat, and literally throw it back toward the general vicinity of where they picked it up at, laughing and smiling with their friends the whole time, while their mistreatment of my merchandise could not be farther from their minds. Trust me on this, the behavior I am describing is the rule, at least in my hat store, not the exception.

I can't account for the guy's attitude, though. I can only say that most people know what their hat size is before they walk into a hat shop.

Regards,

I feel your pain,i also work in retail and you really do see the worst in people
Regards
Sam

Pagey wrote:

Indiana Jimbo wrote:told me that this is how he(Ford) wore it in the movie. I looked at it and thought the way she fashioned it looked like someone had stepped on it.

When we all know, he SAT on it!!

Sorry about your visit - I've been there myself and had exactly the same experience. And when I went I met Swales himself - equally disappointing though.

why was it dissapointing when you met swales?

Indiana Jimbo wrote:Hey all,

"Of course you are." He said this in a rather unkind tone, but I pretended not to notice.

Hiya,

When I went for my poet in november I got exactly the same kind of treatment. I didn't know my hatsize, but I don't reckon that was the problem. I don't have any issues with the stitching, maybe they have become worse since november 2004.

Man. Did you ask specifically to talk to him? I thought he retired some time ago. Maybe it was one of the shop assitants covering for him. I know what you mean by dry bash. I didnt reveal that I'm an indy fan. They didn't know it had been called the australian model on the indy dvd (Thats what I asked for) but they knew exactly what I wanted when I asked for a three inch brim and five inch crown. I don't if it's because we aren't aristocracy or what.

Pagey wrote: Sorry about your visit - I've been there myself and had exactly the same experience.

Ditto for me, when I went three or four weeks ago. My visit was disappointing and at best I left feeling dejected - didn't seem like they cared much if I bought anything or not. I do agree about the stacks of hats, they all looked thoroughly "0wned" . Dealing with Steve is far more rewarding. That's why I bought an AB from someone across the ocean rather than go 15mins by train from my house to the HJ shop.

Testify!

I'm tempted to email this thread to HJ and see what kind of reaction we would get from them.

Vannevar wrote:I'm tempted to email this thread to HJ and see what kind of reaction we would get from them.

I suspect it will be that same "Of course you are" attitude displayed at the store...

We did get some encouraging news on 7/22 from "The Avaitor" which seemed to imply somebody gave a $%&# about what Indy-fans were interested in regarding the hat.

viewtopic.php?t=13267

My feeling has been that they currently offer an inferior product, the staff and management really don't care if you buy from them or not, and they look down their nose at you. I say, buy an HJ liner and put it in an AdventureBuilt...

I have been thinking about Indiana Jimbo's experience since I read it. I wonder if this is an isolated incident or a common experience.

If it is common, I am sorry to hear the quality of customer service is severely lacking at the shop. I understand how businesses conduct themselves in changing environments and sometimes lose what made them great "in the old days". This makes me appreciate the COW(and certain outside) vendors even more.

Those "unappreciative customer" comments do not seem to apply here. Indiana Jimbo told the sales person outright that he is an Indiana Jones afficionado. One would think this comment would seperate your 'touristy' customer looking for "English flavor" from a serious hat buyer. Unless H.J. considers the Indiana Jones crowd a bit "fringe"....

If I am going to drop the kind of dough they are asking they had better treat me like gold. This is true whether I tell them I am an Indiana Jones fan or a Mouseketeer!

Indiana Jimbo did the right thing. Be polite and take you hard earned cash elsewhere.

Fedoraman wrote:I say, buy an HJ liner and put it in an AdventureBuilt...

I am not sure if you are joking or not but I do not suggest doing that!

Why disrespect the hat and hatmaker who actually cares about their product and customer?

If the attitude displayed at Herbert Johnson is what I have to go through to get the "real thing", I will skip it!

Feraud wrote:

Fedoraman wrote:I say, buy an HJ liner and put it in an AdventureBuilt...

I am not sure if you are joking or not but I do not suggest doing that!

Why disrespect the hat and hatmaker who actually cares about their product and customer?

If the attitude displayed at Herbert Johnson is what I have to go through to get the "real thing", I will skip it!

The does indicate humor - however poorly delivered.

However, I was trying to say that if the red or gold HJ seal on the inside of the hat is all you are after so you can have a "screen-accurate" lid on your head this is the way to go. Fedora was even trying to become an HJ stateside vendor to no avail, I can guarantee that his hats would be distinctly more "Indy" than the ones sold in England - poor move on their part...

Fedoraman wrote:The does indicate humor - however poorly delivered.

Not so!
I was in 'soapbox' mode!

So H.J. turned Fedora down huh? I agree that was a bad move. That could have been a satisfactory partnership for both.

HJ has had a love/hate relationship with us. Personally for me, it dates back to the late 80's when I ordered mine through Lee Keppler. Delivery time was dependant on Swales' mood at the time. He'd either regail you of how the hat was made, or put you off until he got around to you.

So no, this is definitely not new behavior.

Mike

I got a quick edit here.

As far as the hat hurting me goes, it was more just being uncomfortable than pain. The stiches were pretty bulky therefore pressing into my forehead. Another thing is that the sweatband area was very sturdy. I had space on both sides of my head where the hat did not touch. Is that to be expected?

Feraud wrote: I have been thinking about Indiana Jimbo's experience since I read it. I wonder if this is an isolated incident or a common experience.

No, this is quite common. It has been this way for sometime. Even MK has reported problems working with the staff one on one.

Feraud wrote: I understand how businesses conduct themselves in changing environments and sometimes lose what made them great "in the old days".

Being in business since 1889, I am afraid that HJ feels its core business comes from elsewhere. They do consider IJ fans fringe. They are more intersted in selling accessories to the English gentleman. Briefcases, umbrellas, luggage, etc.

Feraud wrote: If I am going to drop the kind of dough they are asking they had better treat me like gold.

Although it is a lot of money to you and me. In comparison to the other items they sell, it's pretty small. For example, their leather suitcase costs around $1700USD and a leather shaving kit runs $350+USD.

Feraud wrote:
Indiana Jimbo did the right thing. Be polite and take you hard earned cash elsewhere.

That is correct. That is the best thing you can do.

Cheers,
Pyr.

They consider us fringe I guess because they probably don't a significant number of hats to fans, for the very reasons reported in this thread. I'm sure we'd be more than fringe if their business manners were friendlier and of a more personable nature. Their loss.

Indiana Jimbo wrote:I got a quick edit here.

As far as the hat hurting me goes, it was more just being uncomfortable than pain. The stiches were pretty bulky therefore pressing into my forehead. Another thing is that the sweatband area was very sturdy. I had space on both sides of my head where the hat did not touch. Is that to be expected?

Hey Jimbo,

It sounds as if you have a long oval headshape and you were trying on a regular oval hat. If you tell Steve that you are a long oval, he can make a long oval hat that will fit you perfectly. I believe that Harrison Ford is a long oval also, so you are in pretty good IndyGear company.

Saddens the heart. This reminds me so much of days back when I first joined Indyfan, and read accounts very similiar to these.

It seems that even when Mr. Swales worked there, at times he was put off by crazy Indy fans. Then occassionally, you would hear a story where he would share some info and be more congenial. But, they have never been that pleasant to deal with overall.


I know I have said it many times, but HJ at one time was a reputable hatter. I have seen some very high quality vintage HJs. Wonderfully made hats, and very high quality. But, as with other hatters, the changes and times killed so much of it. Not enough demand, and you see the result of it. A pile of hats in a corner somewhere in the shop, gathering dust. The same with other old brands, like Stetson. Gone the way of the Dodo.

You know, really, since Mr Swales has retired, you can't even get the lopsided dimensional cut anymore. I guess for me, the charm of the Swales' era HJs is gone forever. When you got one from him, at least it was comforting to know that the man himself cut that brim and handled that hat. When he left, the HJ sorta died for me. Hang on to yours whipwarrior. It is a collectable!!


At least the fans are keeping the original Indy fedora alive. I think in a few years, a fedora will be completely identified with Indiana Jones, if it is not that way already. Fedora

Fedora wrote:...At least the fans are keeping the original Indy fedora alive.

Heck you're keeping the Indy Fedora alive more than most Steve!

Amen to that.

I'm sure most, if not all of us, would have an interest in what is supposed to be the actual product. It's a shame that the service is like that. When I compare it to my recent experience with Ron at Hatsdirect, I'm certain that I will never deal with HJ. The only way that I would own an HJ is if it was in the classifieds and I liked the bash.

I've said before, if I'm spending the money, it's AB. Steve has already been so helpful in my learning about the Indy hat, and I haven't even bought an AB, yet.

You know it's a shame, but there is one thing that is crystial clear.
Even if HJ,don't, through Steve,"Fedora," Will like all of us, keep the Indy Fedora Alive and Well...

I am one that is appreciateable.

What everyone is missing here is that this is the Swaine Adeney shop, and their markup on the Indy hat is outrageous. There is no real HJ shop anymore, except the factory/wholesaler out in Cambridge. The hat you get from them, through Todd's Costumes here in the states or the guy in Germany, is about 80 dollars cheaper and a better shaped hat than you get from the London retailer. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Dakota Ellison wrote:There is no real HJ shop anymore, except the factory/wholesaler out in Cambridge.

Even that's not HJ, it's the Swain Adeney Brigg warehouse.

They do have the odd person working on hats part-time (military hats by commission) but it's nothing like the real HJ factory I visited in Rushden 7 or 8 years ago


I can confirm the same experience & the quality of the hats is terrible, with one I found even having the bashes put in the back of the hat!

If you want to see a real hat shop in London go to Lock & Co. down the bottom of the same road. I think they will even measure your head with an old wooden contraption which looks like a torture device!

If you want an Indy fedora get in touch with Steve

Does this Lock & Co. place sell anything Indyish?

Well they have fedoras obviously. However, they won't have the crown height or stove pipe sides of an Indy fedora. Also the finish in the hats is rather fuzzy (sorry I don't know the technical term!) unlike the smooth finish of my AB.

http://www.jameslock.co.uk/prod1.taf?ca ... 0A42F3A0C2

These aren't accurate either, but certainly easy on the eyes

http://www.jameslock.co.uk/prod1.taf?ca ... 0A42F3A0C2

Skippy wrote: I think they will even measure your head with an old wooden contraption which looks like a torture device!

It's called a conformature.



Basically, it draws an outline of the shape of your head for a better fitting hat.

Hopefully, an idea that won't fade away.

Pyr.

I just told my wife that I need to get my head conformed. She didn't pay any attention to me, she's used to it by now.