Club Obi Wan

I have said in past posts I have had some if little correspondence to Herbert Johnson, but today I have had what some may call a breakthrough, which admittadly I was taken aback by. I recieved this letter from a staffmember and was thoroughly open mouthed......this may be a case of simply 'shooting the ####' or maybe it is a plan for the future and if so a lone gearhed may be able to influence minds about the future of their product ......................Tell me what you think?

Dear Sir,



Sorry for the delay in replying, since your email I have been busy doing some investigative work into the "Indy".

I have worked for the company for two years and have always been told that the hat is exactly the same as the original but after your email I thought I would check that this is the case.

Sadly I have since learned I have been misled.

I have learned from Mr. Swales, the original hatter that the hat was indeed changed by the then CEO (John De Brunyi) and a buyer who will remain nameless as she still works for us. The reasons for the switch seem to be due to a personality clash between said parties and the felt supplier.

Through a friend (a big fan) I have obtained one of the early hats made by Herbert Johnson and have begun a course of action to re-instate the original felt suppliers.

I have spoken with the current CEO and am confident that in the near future we will be producing a superior version of this hat which is much closer to the original, complete with White lining and the original Red label.

The felt supplier who made the original felt we still use for other hats and by the look of it will now be supplying the "Indy" felt again so I'm sorry I still can not divulge their name, but I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for opening my eyes to this oversight within the company which I hope to put right.



Kind regards,

Remember that the "original red label" wasn't the oval one as seen in LC, but a five sided label. Ajila (sp?) - a French member from COW has one of these in his possesion.

Good work and hopefully this fella WILL look into it. Maybe they'd be willing to find a descent block as well...

Regards,

Marc

Marc wrote:Ajila (sp?)

ANJALI.

My sentiments exactly Marc, a block needs to have some serious thought put into it....I can only pray that they still have some old or even the spec of the blocks to make a new one

Through a friend (a big fan) I have obtained one of the early hats made by Herbert Johnson ...

Wouldn't you love to get your hands on that hat?!

I must say, I am impressed that they got back to you and answered with such candor. Well done.

Wow, thats great news! But I'm afraid to say that without the proper block we won't be any closer to the Raiders hat than we are now. But better quality is definately something to look foward to.

I myself am also supprised i felt my comments would be met with stubberness but am supprised at there customer policys and their willingness to change......we may be seeing a new Era of Herbert Johnson.

weaver your in my mind frame....hopefully they old blocks can be retrieved.

myself am also supprised i felt my comments would be met with stubberness but am supprised at there customer policys and their willingness to change......we may be seeing a new Era of Herbert Johnson.

Hummm. Jersey, it might be worth another call??? Fedora

Fedora wrote:

myself am also supprised i felt my comments would be met with stubberness but am supprised at there customer policys and their willingness to change......we may be seeing a new Era of Herbert Johnson.

Hummm. Jersey, it might be worth another call??? Fedora

It might indeed sir. Let me see what I can do !

Ken

What may be worth a call? may i ask. or is it one of those 'if i told you i would have to kill you' deals

Just got another email tell me what ye all think...Herbert Johnson are trying to make a comeback after they have seen the error of their ways....

Hi,
I'm trying to trace the block at the moment and believe it is in a storage facility we have in Hadnam in Cambridgeshire.
Unfortunately the warehouse is huge and it is boxed somewhere within it but I'm going to do everything possible to find it and restore our good name.
I'm also going to involve Mr. Swales in the process if possible to ensure the original designs are used.
I'll let you know how we are getting on.
Once again thanks for you help.

This is beautiful news, I have a HJ and it just doesn't cut it, Its good to know that all us gear heads have some one working on the inside now.

More gearheads are in there that you'll EVER know!! Regards! Michaelson

The Avaitor wrote:Just got another email tell me what ye all think...Herbert Johnson are trying to make a comeback after they have seen the error of their ways....

Hi,
I'm trying to trace the block at the moment and believe it is in a storage facility we have in Hadnam in Cambridgeshire.
Unfortunately the warehouse is huge and it is boxed somewhere within it but I'm going to do everything possible to find it and restore our good name.

Nice work! Looks like you lit a fire underneath them to get back to the quality they use to have in their product. Let's hope they can find the correct block.

Although, how ironic would it be if the original Indy block was in a huge warehouse boxed up and padlocked like the Ark at the end of Raiders?

Believe me in no way shape or form did I ever expect the reply i got . I believe the sender is recently new (2 years) to HJ and suprisingly generally shocked of the idea that their current product was no were near the standerd of years gone by.

I origionally thought the message was to harsh with critisisms but it paid off and it seemed he really took me seriously which is strange from any renound hatter such as Herbert Johnson.

Wow! That's amazing! It'll be interesting to see how all this shapes up and turns out. Fantastic...!

In Christ,
Shane

Michaelson wrote:More gearheads are in there that you'll EVER know!! Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson, it's great to see you've updated your avitar with a current picture of yourself!

Wow, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out! And if they DO find the original block, wil lit be in multiple sizes?

bink

Hey Bink: Check out my thread on Lao C's Table. I curious what you think about this New Image!

Kilgour Trout

Good show! One can only hope that the block can be found and the original standards brought back. Can't wait to see what happens next. Please keep us posted on the progress.

Cheers!

Dan

Good for you Avaitor! Hope this brings results.

Although, how ironic would it be if the original Indy block was in a huge warehouse boxed up and padlocked like the Ark at the end of Raiders?

Even more ironic would be if in the process of searching through that warehouse, HJ actually FOUND the Ark of the Covenant!

Great to hear that HJ may soon be returning to the old standards it used to hold itself to. I know I'd be interesting in getting one of their hats if they really do make these improvements. :junior: -IJ

This is great, great news! Thanks for posting all of this. I love my Optimo but I've always wanted an early 80's HJ and now it seems I won't even need that if all of this comes to pass. To even get the exact same block used! One thing that comes to mind is WHY didn't they do all of this to begin with? Why not search out the original block used years ago? In any case, if all of this works out that won't matter.

This certainly made my day.

I know this is going to cause controversy, and I mean no insult towards TA.

I think it's a case of Too Little - Too Late. We have THREE great vendors who make accurate replicas and they've bent over backwards in getting us great products.

These fellow fans turned vendors deserve our support first and foremost.

Well, if they indeed do as mentioned............I want one,no, I want several. I can never just buy one hat. Of course, I own a couple of HJs, but I like the name on the sweat, and it would be nice to see if they produced as promised. Good work Aviator. It seems that as time goes by, the original managers have left, and the new guys are market savy. That is good for us!!! With that said, this seems to be a culmination of several endeavors, started last year. First, a hatter I know was in contact with them, trying to get the rights to build the HJs here, but using higher quality felt. No go on that one. Then, another guy that I know, tried to work out a deal with them, along the same lines, and using a higher quality felt. No go. At this time, the buyer, a lady, was traveling around the world, even to China to find felt bodies. She turned down the Borsalino line. From what I gather, she was shopping price as she turned down some reputable feltmakers. That you were able to convince these folks is indeed remarkable. I commend your efforts.

Ren, as far as supporting folks like me, I appreciate the kind words. But, it is no big deal if I make less hats. There will always be a market for reasonably priced pure beaver hats. Some people will always buy a particular brand, and some will always want high quality stuff. And some like me, will buy both.

Keep us posted on the developments Aviator. Hopefully you can find out when this new hat will hit the market. Regards, Fedora

Just don't stop making them before Christmas, Fedora.

Fedora wrote:And some like me, will buy both.

I guess you and I are in the same category then, Fedora. :junior: -IJ

Yeah, Steve, you can't stop making them! You're my favourite hatter! (And yes, I'll always buy various hats, but the quality of the AB is my current fav!)

bink

Fedora, interesting comment it seems a personal conflict of interests between HJ and the felter led to the demise in their quality of felt.....note in letter 'female buyer' still working with the company and names cant be given. Very cloak and dagger if you ask me.

Hopefully it will work out and i may make this a sticky thread if possible and update regulary, every fortnight or month dont want to sicken this guy or press him too hard for details, dont want to scare him off as it took him a fortnight to reply with the first e mail i posted......said he was researching my comments

Just to clarify, are we talking about the block for creating the open crown?

Just to clarify, are we talking about the block for creating the open crown?

Yes. Some here, including myself, think the Raiders block was different than some of the other film hats. There is a hat in the old HJ catalog that I think is the Raiders block, along with the other LC block. I think the block shapes got switched between films. The only difference is we think the Raiders block is just a little straighter all around, more of a tall bowler block shape in contrast with a traditional fedora tapered block. I saw Mike's older HJ(got it from Lee back when Lee sold the HJ), and it was the Raiders block, no doubt at all. Then, I have seen many Hjs since that time with the LC block. Different blocks. Fedora

How would you rate Akubras block, Fedora, and why? If you don't mind my asking.

How would you rate Akubras block, Fedora, and why? If you don't mind my asking

Some of the blocks are pretty good, depending upon the size. That has been my experience. The shortcoming of the Federation block is too much dome, or a wrong shaped dome. But, they still can be styled into good looking Indy fedoras. It is only when you are crazy like me, that the fine details matter. It will drive you nuts. Fedora

Nadoolman told Dakota Ellison she didn't even think Swales was involved on the first film. If Swales is advising our friend, he might get directed to the TOD block rather than the Raider's block. ...(If the block they find isn't a telescope, it's not the Raiders block... believe me later) It's just incredible that the thing might be forgotten in a warehouse!

Fedora wrote

Some of the blocks are pretty good, depending upon the size. That has been my experience. The shortcoming of the Federation block is too much dome, or a wrong shaped dome. But, they still can be styled into good looking Indy fedoras. It is only when you are crazy like me, that the fine details matter. It will drive you nuts. Fedora

I kind of figured that it had too much of a round top. As good as I can make it look, I still can't get those nice, what I call "boxy" camel humps. There isn't enough material. I am crazy like you in that respect. If it doesn't look just right, I'll go insane. I made my wife teach me to sew a few years back just so I could make an authentic Roger Maris jersey. Turned out great. Anyway, I'm glad your crazy. We need someone dedicated to making an authentic Indy hat. I think my Akubra is as close as I can get it, and it's a great hat for the $. But, look for me at Christmas.

If the block they find isn't a telescope, i

I was doing some nightime reading last night, one of my hat book, of course. I found it interesting, and some info 3M$ might enjoy. This book was talking about fedoras, and it seems that even the telescope crown started out with the same block shape as a regular fedora. In fact, all of the dress styled hats, came off of the fedora style, including the short porkpie, and the taller telescoped crown hats. THey were all the same hat(from Stetson), just different creases. And if, the telescope was made back when they were doing the nice thin, unstiffened vintage hats, that telescope crease would have popped right out, with no signs of it ever being a telescope, well, almost no signs, except where the hat was creased sharply on top. But, it was the identical block shape as the fedora, and homburg, etc. Now, in all fine hat shops, the creases would have been put in by hand, as it was the preferred, and traditional way of styleing a hat. It was styled on site, to what looked the best on the customer. I guess it is possible that someone, playfully, styled one of Indy's hats into a porkpie, as they are comical hats. I can see it now. They are all sitting around, drinking, and Ford creases his hat to look like that for laughs. Then, it goes back to his regular fedora. Stranger things do happen. Now, if you are maintaining that they pulled a porkpie off the shelf and used it for the film hat, that is just too much of a stretch. With similiarly blocked, open crown hats sitting on the shelf, that would be a rather stupid thing to do. Remember, most hats at HJ were all open crown, with the personel doing the styling, just the way it was in the old days. HJ was an old timey hat shop, back then. Fedora

I doubt we will ever discover the 'particular thing' Nadoolman, Ford and H.J. did to his(Ford) hat to make it look the way it did. There seem to be too many variables in endless combinations involved regarding hat material, shape, distressing, transportation, hat repairs, climate, etc. to exactly mimic the hat on Indy's head.
There is no doubt in my mind that without the desire, diligence and perseverence of many Gearheads we would not have the diversity and quality of hats we enjoy today.
I view the perfect Indy hat much like the quest for The Grail. The pursuit of something wonderful(dare I say spiritual?) that is always slightly out of reach...
I salute you all who have made hats like the Akubra, AB, and Camptown what they are.
Thanks.

I view the perfect Indy hat much like the quest for The Grail. The pursuit of something wonderful(dare I say spiritual?) that is always slightly out of reach...

I still recall a member of Indyfan stating once that if we actually saw the original Raiders fedora, we would say, "no, that's not it, not even close" I consider that to be the truth, strangely enough. A common hat that has risen to epic proportions.

It still makes me laugh that everyone expects there to be A block. The right block would have existed in several sizes so if anything there'd be a shelf of them in that warehouse.

Yeah, if it was an old style block, per Mr. Swales' account, then they probably still have it. The question is this. When HJ went modern(like the sourcing change that happened to most major hat companies in the 80's), did they do like many other companies and have the hats made from scratch by someone else? If this is the case, and if Borsalino supplied the hat with HJs sweat and liner already installed, then we are stuck with Borsalinos block. Same with the other supplierss to HJ. This may have happened, with Hj doing none of the actual hatmaking. That would certainly explain the various block shapes I have seen in the HJ line. Otherwise, if HJ actually did make the hats in their factory, then between the first film and the others, they grabbed another block to use. That is very possible too.

And really, the only difference that I could see between Mike's old HJ and the new ones is the front and back taper. Mike's HJ looked like a bowler block, that is, with the front and back being straight, whereas the LC block was certainly tapered, as most fedora blocks are. This little nuance actually changes the way the hat looks, from the side, but also just a bit from the front and back. The reason is the extra material on the top half of the hat, due to the non tapered block. Easier to get deeper creases on the front of the hat, without pulling the front inward at the pinch area to cause the old Keppler taper syndrome. Fedora

Pagey wrote:It still makes me laugh that everyone expects there to be A block. The right block would have existed in several sizes so if anything there'd be a shelf of them in that warehouse.

Fedora wrote:Yeah, if it was an old style block, per Mr. Swales' account, then they probably still have it.

Right. Lock Hatters still have their century-old blocks in store and in use... the old HJ blocks are definitively stored somewhere... in Cambridge, or elsewhere... they won't get rid of a block unless it broke and was rendered useless. (*shudder* imagine the HF Raiders block... cracked in two, and tossed away... )

Nadoolman told Dakota Ellison she didn't even think Swales was involved on the first film.

Yeah, well consider the source. Nadoolman was also the one who said it was "The Australian Model". :junior: -IJ

...she also insists on the RedWings instead of the Aldens. I doubt she really took the time to look around her and take in everything so she could remember it 20 years later for a film she didn't even know would turn out as well as it did. I wouldn't have.

Sorry Debora.

In Christ,
Shane

I agree, there are too many variables. This is why I'm glad we have people like Fedora who have tried to minimize these variables. I think there are things that the production had to do to the hat for certain scenes that changed the appearance. I think that during the Raven bar, Streets of Cairo, the Flying Wing scene, and the following truck chase they added the little foam strips to tighten the hat. They wanted it to stay on. This really tweaked the brim. I added some extra to mine today and it did some interesting things to the brim. And I like it.

I realize that most of this has been discovered before. But hey! I'm new, so give me a break.

Thanks

Anyone have any updates on the new HJs? I looked at their site today and they have a different pictured hat!

Just saw that. Hat looks better. Picture is poor quality, though.

Anybody got a link?

Yeah, the hat has better styling, but they REALLY need to improve the lighting in that picture, the hat looks almost black! :junior: -IJ

I am glad that - as it seems right now - HJ do recognice their past. The one that includes Indiana Jones.
I had had the impresion that HJ kind of wished they never got involed in the "Indy-thing" in the first place.

But actually they are sitting like "a begger on a beach of gold". If they
are going to take this Indy-fedora seriously the amount of hats they can sell will be quite high.
But they will have to take us seriously, and not like a bunch of freaks, second they must provide a product of quality and autentic.

If they´ll do that their will be our next "darlings" (as those before them Optimo, Peters Bros. and present Adventurebilt).

Rest asure that the wheel will turn again...

Best regards

JAN