Club Obi Wan

Photo stolen from Fedora's archives.

Who could think otherwise? (uh oh, I do not mean to open a can of worms here... )

Now get out your dvd copy of Raiders and look at the scene where he boards the plane, sits and looks out the window. The ribbon is brown as brown can be. I tried it on several different sources and it's a brown. You think they'd put a brown ribbon on a solid gray hat?

I think the hat was gray but had undertones of reds or browns that stood out differently when the light hit it, creating a brownish gray.

Any opinion on this?

Here is one of my post form the previous can o' worms...uh, I mean topic.

Steve has a felt that fits just what you described agent5. Its grey, but has a brown tint to it. With a brown ribbon the brown in the hat comes out more. It looks very close to Indy's "gray" hat. Steve, If you see this could you post a pic of your "Raiders Gray"?

IMO that hat that Indy wears at the plane and at the end of the movie is his dress hat. Its gray with brown undertones. It certainly isn't his "field" hat and it certainly isn't brown.

I think we are going to find jimmy hoffa's body before we find out what color that hat was.

This may be off topic, but keeping in mind the controversy that this picture started in the other thread as to it's authenticity, the more I look at, the more I think it's genuine. If you'll notice, it appears that it was a rather dull overcast day, so combine that with a slow film stock and it might ceate a situation in which the photographer had to use a very wide aperture which would translate to a very narrow depth of field. The final result being HF and the young lady being in sharp focus and the background out of focus. We should at least be thankful that whoever shot the picture was able to focus the camera correctly!

We now toss it back to your previously scheduled topic...

Cheers!

jpenman wrote:I think we are going to find jimmy hoffa's body before we find out what color that hat was.

Hoffa was cremated in a steam locomotive.

The hat is grey, and when you put it next to a brown hat the brown hat will be brown and the grey hat will stay grey.

We have three scenes and an on off set pic where that hat is grey. We have on and off set pics of where the other hats were brown. Where is the controversy?

Baggers wrote:This may be off topic, but keeping in mind the controversy that this picture started in the other thread as to it's authenticity, the more I look at, the more I think it's genuine. If you'll notice, it appears that it was a rather dull overcast day, so combine that with a slow film stock and it might ceate a situation in which the photographer had to use a very wide aperture which would translate to a very narrow depth of field. The final result being HF and the young lady being in sharp focus and the background out of focus. We should at least be thankful that whoever shot the picture was able to focus the camera correctly!

We now toss it back to your previously scheduled topic...

Cheers!

To add to that: the photographer was taking a portrait. He or she did it the correct way. That's how you get an image like this; the focus is on the people. Anyone with a camera with aperature settings can take a photo like this, a professional photographer knows how to use them.

Michaelson spoke to primary sources in the prop department of Paramount who handled the hat and they said it was gray. Michaelson is a credible source. We now have this photo of a gray hat. We have primary sources saying it was gray and photographic evidence to that effect. Therefore, the hat was gray. Why waste time arguing over a fact?

Wow! Thanks to this photo, I have finally solved the debate. It is both a gray hat and a brown hat. When I put my sunglasses on, it is a brown hat. When I take my sunglasses off, it is a gray hat.

Hemingway Jones wrote:Michaelson is a credible source.

I don't know...it depends on how much coffee he'd had to drink that day.

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Wow! Thanks to this photo, I have finally solved the debate. It is both a gray hat and a brown hat. When I put my sunglasses on, it is a brown hat. When I take my sunglasses off, it is a gray hat.

Whaddayaknow!, when I close my eyes, it's black!



Regards,
Swindiana

The real question is... would he have socks to match the hat?

I think it's gray... seems like there's enough evidence to prove it to.

In Christ,
Shane

Swindiana wrote:

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Wow! Thanks to this photo, I have finally solved the debate. It is both a gray hat and a brown hat. When I put my sunglasses on, it is a brown hat. When I take my sunglasses off, it is a gray hat.

Whaddayaknow!, when I close my eyes, it's black!



Regards,
Swindiana

Wow, Swindy! It is a great day for IndyGear. Two discoveries in one day. Oh, my! That means that now the black fedora is screen accurate.

Now get out your dvd copy of Raiders and look at the scene where he boards the plane, sits and looks out the window. The ribbon is brown as brown can be. I tried it on several different sources and it's a brown. You think they'd put a brown ribbon on a solid gray hat?

I think the hat was gray but had undertones of reds or browns that stood out differently when the light hit it, creating a brownish gray.

Any opinion on this?

I agree absolutely with you, Agent 5. The hat is grey, but it is a brownish grey, not a bluish grey. It would've looked good with a brown suit. (And Steve McQueen's sport coat in Bullitt was actually gray.)

Hoffa was cremated in a steam locomotive.

are you sure I always thought he was under the goalpost of Giants stadium.

jpenman wrote:

Hoffa was cremated in a steam locomotive.

are you sure I always thought he was under the goalpost of Giants stadium.

Nah, Myth Busters busted that one.

Nah, Myth Busters busted that one.

J-weaver I know it was a joke. I don't think anyone know where he is. I should have said we would find jimmy hoffa before we all agread on the color of this hat.

I know, I was joking too!

Look at this hat! Do my eyes decieve me or does thi hat have brown undertones? Steve, I hope you don't mind me barrowing this pic. That is you Raiders gray isn't it?

J-weaver, I've seen this hat before and if Steve still has them I plan on buying one ( once my wife forgets how many I have right now).

I've said this before about this pic. I still see brown! How do you guys see grey? Question- Do any of you wear a blue suit, grey hat, RED tie? I've also said , that if someone mentions a 'credible','reliable', source everyone abandons their own sensory organs and agrees with what they're told! From my understanding, it has only been mentioned that a grey hat EXISTED! Not that it was worn by Harrison Ford in any particular scene. Am I mistaken here? The sources said that they "handled" or "made" a grey hat, right? In my mind, that is reasonable doubt.

I see a few people getting the courage to go against the grain, here, and are shot down by what is spoken as "canon" by certain members, and trying to disprove it is considered anathema by fellow admirers.

I posted a bunch of pictures to prove what I believe is happening in the scenes and they were deleted, so my case can no longer even be viewed or considered. Do I think that's fair? No. But who am I..

I am not doubting or impuning any admin. here or anyone for that matter. Only disputing the color of a hat.I have no doubt that Michaelson was told what he was told, but if I agree with the information Michaelson is simply relaying , then I am admitting that I don't believe MY OWN EYES , and I'm not going to do that. Hopefully I won't be banned from the forum for this view.

I have all the respect in the world for the admin. here at Indygear, and I was NEVER attacking anyone at any time. But I have received a warning from the admin. to stop this discussion. So , therefore, I'm done with it. I see brown, it's brown. Everyone else sees what they want. I'm CERTAIN Harrison Ford would remember, even after 25 years, what color hat was in those scenes , and he would be the ONLY source that I would believe, unless a clear , concise, OBVIOUS picture or footage of him wearing the grey hat during filming of those scenes materialized. And that is the only way ANY of us could be certain of this issue.



have a nice day.

Texas Raider,

It is not your views or opinion that granted you a warning, your second. It was however the way in which you posted your opinions and carrying on the argument to other threads, which this one is actually doing. (We'll figure whether or not to shut this one down and keep it to a single thread.)

You posted 5 different posts to get your point across, including one in the classifieds, which is totally inappropriate. If your pictures would've been posted to one thread, there probably would not have been an issue, though personally, I feel that your case could've just as well been made in the original thread.

Aside from that, it was felt by some members of the board, and no we won't divuldge names as you requested in your email, you were being beligerent in other posts. This was another cause for a warning. Differing opinions, or 'going against the grain', is never frowned upon here. It is in the way one goes about his differences that causes issues. If opions are given without malice and kept civil, you can state your case for as long as you want. When you become hostile and skirt around with the rules, that's when problems arise.

If you indeed "have all the respect in the world for the admin", then please act accordingly to the rules you agreed to when signing up. Otherwise, we'll continue to have issues.

Mike

Texas Raider wrote:I've said this before about this pic. I still see brown! How do you guys see grey?

How do you see brown? EVERY picture you have posted from the movie has prove the “Hat is gray point” for us.

Question- Do any of you wear a blue suit, grey hat, RED tie?

I do. It added a “slash of color”. It still goes well and doesn’t clash since it is not an over powering color or a massive amount of color.

I've also said , that if someone mentions a 'credible','reliable', source everyone abandons their own sensory organs and agrees with what they're told! From my understanding, it has only been mentioned that a grey hat EXISTED! Not that it was worn by Harrison Ford in any particular scene. Am I mistaken here? The sources said that they "handled" or "made" a grey hat, right? In my mind, that is reasonable doubt.

My eyes work just fine, and they tell me the hat is gray. I thought the hat was gray BEFORE I found Indy Gear. So did just about a everyone else.

I see a few people getting the courage to go against the grain, here, and are shot down by what is spoken as "canon" by certain members, and trying to disprove it is considered anathema by fellow admirers.

They are not being shot down by certain members who dictate what people think (which is what you are implying). You are being shot down by people who, like me, trust their eyes and see a gray hat. They also choose to believe, as rightfully so, the members of this community who have done more research (calling vendor, sorting through old studio records, walking through production warehouses, etc) than anyone else here. These are the guys that started this hobby (some probably the day after Raiders came out).

I posted a bunch of pictures to prove what I believe is happening in the scenes and they were deleted, so my case can no longer even be viewed or considered. Do I think that's fair? No. But who am I..

You are someone who is giving Texans a bad name. Kidding, I’m just kidding. It is obvious through some of your posts you can’t take a joke. Actually, you are someone who can’t let this go. I still can’t believe this topic is going on. Most people just let the fight die (whatever the fight might be). This doesn’t mean that they give up, but rather that they just move on.

I saw your posts, and they where doomed from the start. Did you really expect people to just vote and not post something? Heck, the posts that I did see (the last time I viewed the thread was about 6:00 AM that morning) had nothing to do with influencing the poll.

I am not doubting or impuning any admin. here or anyone for that matter. Only disputing the color of a hat.I have no doubt that Michaelson was told what he was told, but if I agree with the information Michaelson is simply relaying , then I am admitting that I don't believe MY OWN EYES , and I'm not going to do that. Hopefully I won't be banned from the forum for this view.

That is the same attitude that everyone else has here. There are many debates over what was one screen. Not everyone agrees, but not everyone takes it to the extreme to which you have either.

I have all the respect in the world for the admin. here at Indygear, and I was NEVER attacking anyone at any time. But I have received a warning from the admin. to stop this discussion. So , therefore, I'm done with it. I see brown, it's brown. Everyone else sees what they want.

There were times in you discussion where it did seem you were attacking people. Then again, as you have found out in this incident, appearances can be deceiving.

I'm CERTAIN Harrison Ford would remember, even after 25 years, what color hat was in those scenes , and he would be the ONLY source that I would believe, unless a clear , concise, OBVIOUS picture or footage of him wearing the grey hat during filming of those scenes materialized. And that is the only way ANY of us could be certain of this issue.

Now THAT is funny!! Ford didn’t remember why Connery kept calling him junior in The Last Crusade (see his appearance on “Inside the Actors Studio”). This was a running theme throughout the movie, and he forgot it. Do you really think he is going to remember the color of a hat he wore from 24 years ago? Unless it is sitting in his closet (which we have found out that it is sitting in someone else’s now) he is going to have to say either, “I don’t remember” or “Well, let’s look at the movie.” If he looks at the movie he will say what 99% of the members have said so far, “It’s gray.”

Also, it is not the only way we could, and are, certain on this issue. We have the original maker telling us this. It’s like not believing Wested didn’t make the original jacket.

have a nice day.

Thank you, you too. I’ll be leaving in a few hours to go to a convention in San Antonio. I’m hoping that I don’t get caught in Austin traffic, so that means a lot.

I was working on this Raiders gray hat and decided to snap a few pics of it sitting next to a gray modern Borsalino, the "Michaelson" for those who remember Joe Jr's venture into the Indy fedoras. The AB in the pic is not finished, in fact, I had just installed the ribbon, and threw a quick bash in for good measure. The brim was not flanged yet. The Borsalino is a reblok that I got in awhile back. Both hats are gray. The Boraslina, a blueish gray, and the AB a brownish gray. I think this comparison might give insight into this debate. http://public.fotki.com/Fedora/hats/bor ... b_gay.html Regards, Fedora

J_Weaver wrote:

Hemingway Jones wrote:Michaelson is a credible source.

I don't know...it depends on how much coffee he'd had to drink that day.

Dang. You found me out! Regards! Michaelson

Fedora, you may want to change your photo caption... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Mike

Michaelson wrote:

J_Weaver wrote:

Hemingway Jones wrote:Michaelson is a credible source.

I don't know...it depends on how much coffee he'd had to drink that day.

Dang. You found me out! Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson, credible?! This is a man who tried to buy a Raiders idol with little shoessticking out of the back!

Michaelson, awesome new avatar, BTW!

They're just happy hat colors. That's all he means with the caption!

Thanks, MJack. Taken from my new drivers license photo shot this year. Most realistic one made to date by DMV equipment! (hey, I like little shoes! )

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora, you may want to change your photo caption... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Oh no!!!! I think my fingers were still asleep this morning when I titled that one. But, it is a rather happy color. Fedora

You posted 5 different posts to get your point across, including one in the classifieds, which is totally inappropriate. If your pictures would've been posted to one thread, there probably would not have been an issue, though personally, I feel that your case could've just as well been made in the original thread.

I tried to explain that the only way I could get the vote on each hat was to post these 5 posts! Believe me, I tried to do it in one post. You can even ask a few of the members, it would only let you vote once and I wanted a vote on EACH hat pic. I wasn't trying to be obnoxious with the 5 postings, just needed a vote on each hat.

If you indeed "have all the respect in the world for the admin", then please act accordingly to the rules you agreed to when signing up. Otherwise, we'll continue to have issues.

I also was never intending to sound hostile or anything either. Heck, I'm not even mad or angry or anything over this issue. It's more puzzling than anything else. My only goal is to try to settle the color issue once and for all, whatever color it may be, and do it constructively. If it was ever misconstrued as hostile, my apologies.

Band Director Jones, there is nothing wrong with my sense of humor. There just hasn't been much to be humorous about in these particular discussions. If you were on the receiving end, as I am, you would feel the same, I'm certain.
(p.s. When it is discovered that the hat is brown, I'll be laughing then!! and you'll see more of my humorous side)



have a nice day.

I think Fedora pretty much put this to rest. It clearly has to do with the environment that the photo is taken in. If Fedora took those hats outside, under a blue sky, they would probably look more "gay" (sorry, I can't let that go). If you have time Fedora, you might try that. Then again I may be assassinated by someone waiting for their AB for suggesting that. I could see how the hat looks a little brown when Indy boards the plane, but I felt it was because of the interior of the plane. "Gay" tends to be a reflective color. Just look at how the brown hats look in different light. In some pictures of mine it looks like a different hat.

^stol ... er ... borrowed from Scandinavia Jones.

Texas Raider wrote:Band Director Jones, there is nothing wrong with my sense of humor. There just hasn't been much to be humorous about in these particular discussions. If you were on the receiving end, as I am, you would feel the same, I'm certain.
(p.s. When it is discovered that the hat is brown, I'll be laughing then!! and you'll see more of my humorous side)



have a nice day.

So TR, you think that I haven't been trying be humorous in my postings on this thread? I am always joking about something. I hate to quote myself, but here goes.

Wow! Thanks to this photo, I have finally solved the debate. It is both a gray hat and a brown hat. When I put my sunglasses on, it is a brown hat. When I take my sunglasses off, it is a gray hat.

Okay, this is me not joking about the subject.

Anytime that I have ever seen these two scenes in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy's hat has appeared gray.

In the last month, I have seen Raiders of the Lost Ark on the big screen at the AFI Silver theater, on several computer monitors, on a calibrated, 52 inch DLP rear projection television, and a portable dvd player. In all instances, the hat appeared gray and I can not even stretch it to say that there are brown highlights that are visible.

Tests at my eye doctor and my place of employment indicate that I am not color blind. There you have my opinion with all joking aside.

Whoops, I forgot. There were no gay hats at any of the screenings that I went to either.

I know, I know, that the discussion is this particular hat's color but an equal question is what would Indy 'really have been wearing'...? I would venture to say that the hat would be brown, unless he travels with two hats (unlikely). I agree that gray hats are great, that scene with the suit on the plane is great, and I even have my sights on a gray AB as well. However, just a thought for comment.

Is ANYONE out there paying any attention to the freakin ribbon? The ribbon is brown. Now, I can't say the hat is brown to me but that it's not coming up totally gray in several different formats. I tried it on my Sony tv on 3 different color settings, on my smaller JVC and on my pc. They all show me a brown ribbon. The ribbon IS brown. We'll never know the exact hue, but it is brown.

My question: Who would put a brown ribbon on a gray hat and does this sound right to anyone else?



It just doesn't seem to go together and certainly not with what he was wearing. See, if you look over past posts I was ribbing Texas Raider quite a bit but then I put in the dvd and had never really studied it before. NOW I think he has something there. I always assumed the hat was solid gray cuz I never really looked into it that hard. Now that I've done some research I'm not thinking it's a solid gray as most think it is.

Another theory I've come up with is that several hatters were asked to do hats for Raiders (or so the old stories were told) and maybe the 'gray' hat Ford is wearing came from another hatter, not HJ. I was thinking that the info Michaelson came across about HJ making gray hats was completely true, but they just weren't the hats Ford wore. Maybe the hats HJ made were the ones the two nazi agents wore in Cairo. This made me look closely over screen caps of the hat the nazi agent is wearing in Cairo and there were subtle difference between his hat and the one HF wore on the plane. I'm starting to think it's not the same hat after all. Perhaps several hats were made, bought and tried out by the costume dept and perhaps thats why we see the remnants of a tight front pinch on that hat, not because HJ wore it.

Whaddaya think?

Worth and Worth hats uses a charcoal grey ribbon on their hats that has brown in the grey. Still grey though dirty grey.

The ribbon is charcoal and the hat is grey.

I agree with you, Agent5 (Texas Jones is someone else, by the way ). These are the points I am standing by (as are you too, it seems)

1. Although we obviously have info that grey hats were made and sent to production, they MAY NOT be the hat that Harrison is wearing in those scenes-there is no verification of that. They could have been worn by the lighting engineer for all we know.

2. The ribbon is definately brown, so one would assume the hat is brown as well. Could you put a brown ribbon on a grey hat? Yes, I suppose you could.

3. Indy wears browns,taupes,tans-earthy colors-especially HIS HAT. His signature is a BROWN hat,not JUST a fedora. I personally don't think they would alter this personality trait for his character. Yes he is wearing a BLUE suit and a RED tie-merely to match his hat, NOT the other way around. All his other suits(when he is wearing his hat) match the brown hat and stay in the brown ensemble.

4. Is it possible that he could be wearing a grey hat with all these facts presented? Yes I suppose it is.


but why?




have a nice day.

I remember seeing a Raider Gray Ab with a brown ribbon sometime back. The brown ribbon really brought out the "browness" in the hat. It looked pretty good too.

Here is some more exhibits about the effect of lighting in the brown colors! This is the SAME pair of pants,taken in different lighting!






They look grey in the first pic-but they are TAUPE!



have a nice day.

Exactly what is wrong with a brown ribbon on a gray hat? seems fine to me.

And those two scenes always look like he has a gray hat on to me. Why not have two hats? lots of people on these forums have more than the one type of jacket, hat, etc. Plus indy probably did have a dress hat and a working hat, as he cant go around wearing a dusty distressed hat when he's trying to dress up and look snazzy?

are you sure you're not colour blind Texas Raider? And surely if the ribbon in the pictures looks brown, surely if the hat was brown the lighting would show that as well? But im assuming you wont think so!

at any case, to me it's gray, has always looked gray, and i just can't stretch my perception to see it as brown.

Also: If it looks gray in the movie (even if it wasnt actually gray..which it most likely is) then we can take it as indy having two hats, one of them being gray. does it not matter more what is seen on screen then what is really off screen? i suppose on screen or off screen might matter more or less depending who you are =P - But alot of people use the term 'screen-accuracy' and not 'off-screen accuracy'

Alrighty, just to clear this up, since it's come up repeatedly- I'm positvely, 100%,without a doubt,absolutely CERTAIN that I AM NOT color blind. . But thanks for your concern.





have a nice day.

I think Fedora pretty much put this to rest.

How so? He's guessing like the rest of us. We're all just throwing a shot in the dark and unless one of us comes across this hat, it will continue to be speculation, speculation, speculation.

jpenman wrote:I think we are going to find jimmy hoffa's body before we find out what color that hat was.

Jimmy Hoffa wrote:Leave out of this, I've got no say in this... I'm still ticked off at Jack Nickelson and how he played me in the movie... Movie fans are more trecherous then Teamsters, I'll tell you what!

I was in a bar one night and with the funky lighting my wife said the hat looked grey with a brown ribbon. We tried to take a picture of this, but the flash washed the grey out...

"I'm going to wash the grey right out of my hat...

...I'm going to wash the grey right out of my hat!

I'm going to wash the grey right out of my hat... "

He's guessing like the rest of us.

You are correct. You know, I never questioned the gray hat deal. I saw Indy wear a grayish hat, and never thought anymore about it.

The only revelation that I got from the dvds was the gray hat the nazi wore in the streets of Cairo. You zoom up close and you can see where a tight front, Raiders crease had once been in the hat. That hat certainly looks gray to me.

The hat on the plane looks gray with brownish undertones. The hat at the end of the film sure looks like the same color of hat. Since he was wearing what appears to be a navy suit, it was a no brainer to me the hat was gray. I still think so.

Now, if his brown hat, when he was wearing the brown leather jacket, ever looked gray, I might think differently. But, it always looked brown to me.(no matter what lighting was used) That his hat appeared to be a different color, only when he was not wearing the brown leather, sorta clinched it for me. The only question, was, what shade of gray was it? And, I always assumed that the costumer would coordinate the hat with the clothes, as that was a common thing to do. So, until someone can show me a gray hat with a brown jacket, I will go with my first impressions of the hat color. Fedora

The only revelation that I got from the dvds was the gray hat the nazi wore in the streets of Cairo. You zoom up close and you can see where a tight front, Raiders crease had once been in the hat. That hat certainly looks gray to me.

Another theory I've come up with is that several hatters were asked to do hats for Raiders (or so the old stories were told) and maybe the 'gray' hat Ford is wearing came from another hatter, not HJ. I was thinking that the info Michaelson came across about HJ making gray hats was completely true, but they just weren't the hats Ford wore. Maybe the hats HJ made were the ones the two nazi agents wore in Cairo. This made me look closely over screen caps of the hat the nazi agent is wearing in Cairo and there were subtle difference between his hat and the one HF wore on the plane. I'm starting to think it's not the same hat after all. Perhaps several hats were made, bought and tried out by the costume dept and perhaps thats why we see the remnants of a tight front pinch on that hat, not because HJ wore it.

hmmm, so this is why we call it a 'grey area'.

Just to stir the pot with a little evidence.....here is a photo taken of me a few years ago aboard the Short Solent Mark III Flying Boat at the Western Aerospace Museum in Oakland. This was the plane used for the Raider of the Lost Ark. In other words....I am standing in the same spot as Ford against the same wall of the same aircraft.

There are VERY few instances where we can compare color with this good of reference from Raiders. In fact.....at the moment, I can't think of one that matches or exceeds this example.



I am wearing a first run Akubra Federation. Most of you know this hat. Notice the color of the two walls in both photos. One is a warm tan and the other is a cool turquoise. You should also notice they are a close match in the photos. That means the color temperature of the photos are very close. There is no need to sum up a conclusion, because the photo speaks for itself.

I hope this helps.

Enjoy!

Thanks, MK. The color match seems very, very close. Does everybody else see a brown ribbon? Even in this pic the hat does not look like a solid gray hat. It looks like gray with brown tones, just like a few of us have been stating.

Looks like they redid a part of the window since 1980.

The window is the same. The difference is that when they shot it for Raiders, the gaffer had a silk outside the aircraft to soften the sunlight coming in the window. I didn't have quite the budget they did, so I had to shoot it without a silk.

Therefore the sunlight is washing out the photo around the window in my photo.

Cool. I see it now.