Club Obi Wan

OK, in response to HJ's comments in this thread - viewtopic.php?t=12610 - I'll open this discussion.

Basically I was discussing with Al the other night that the open crown height on most fedoras may not be high enough to achieve the Raiders look.

The top bash might best be achieved without tapering the sides, by having a 6 inch open crown & then use the extra height to create that deep bash.

Look at this picture…



…there seems to be ALOT of hat jammed down into that top bash.

I know there has been some variance on the measurements of the hat as quoted by Richard Swales, but in his letter as posted previously on this forums states, the measurements are given as:

6 inch - open crown
2 7/8 inch - front/back brim
2 3/4 inch - side brim

My current AB is a 5 1/2 inch open crown (with the above dementional cut) & whilst I have put a deep top bash/crease in the hat, this has pulled in the sides & caused very slight tappering. If I restore the straight sides, the hat looses the bash & ends up looking IMO more like a Australian bushmans hat

So what is everyone elses opinion?
Would those in the know be able to comment if a taller hat for a deeper bash would also stop the hat sides getting pulled in/tappered?

Well, part of me says yes, but another part says no. I think that all a 6" crown will do is make your hat 1/2" taller, I don't think it will allow you to deepen the top dent. I think more of a dome in the crown may allow you to tuck the top down deeper before tapering. But I'm no expert.

Tucking the extra down into the crease would/should reduce the height of the hat. Think of it like turning a sock inside-out. The more of the sock toe you poke down the ankle, the shorter the sock becomes in length as it doubles up inside. If you know what I mean...!

Lol, yea, I see what you mean.

But I get the feeling that the only thing a 6" crown would accomplish would be to cause the same phenomenon 1/2" higher. But like I said, I'm no expert.

I was poking around on my AB trying to get the deeper center pinch and when I pushed down I noticed the sides at the top move in, yep ... t-a-p-e-r . So I backed off.

Maybe this is something Steve (God love him) can address in the future, how to get the deeper pinch and keep the stovepipe look. Maybe the 6 inch crown is the answer, I dunno.

Personally, I think all a taller crown will do is prevent a top bash from hitting the top of your head, therefore keeping the deep top bash in the hat. It will still start to taper after pushing it in so much and I don't think it will be much (if any) deeper than that of a shorter crown. I know this because I have a very tall Peters Bros. hat. The bash is pretty deep, but if I push it in more, it starts to bring in the sides. I also have a shorter hat, and the bash will actually hit my head if the hat is pulled on to far and push the bash out. This isn't a problem on my tall Peters Bros. BUT the taller crown doesn't look the best on me. It's cool, but a shorter crown looks a bit better, so I have to find a happy medium.
To make a deeper bash in the top ,without bringing the sides in, would require the hat to actually have a larger circumference at the top than at the head band. This way, as you push the bash down, it brings in the circumference of the top to match the lower part. (at least this is what I think would be needed). So you would need a block that is larger on top than on the bottom (which would have to be a block which comes apart so you can get the hat off of it!)
But then again, I might not know what the heck I'm talkin' about!


have a nice day.

Pagey, that dent isn't near as deep as the temple pic above. We also have to take into consideration of what is "deep" to one person may not be to another. That temple pic is a deep narrow chasm! It isn't touching the top of his head at all. From my view, yours is just an average depth(no offense), any deeper and your head would push it up.



have a nice day.

Come on now, is that the same hat? You cheated , did you push it down deeper and shoot that pic? We need to see it ON. To see if that dent STAYS that deep.

I'm gonna try and get one of mine today and post it.



have a nice day.

Pagey wrote:The centre dent doesn't actually touch the top of my head because the hat is a size too small and therefore sits fairly high on my head. This is deliberate as I personally feel that Ford's hat was the same.

Yep, I totally agree with that. Studying the Raiders pics on MK's webpage, you can clearly see the lowest that fedora gets on HF head is on or just below his hairline.

So it appears a 6 inch open crown might not be the answer

On a personal level, I think where I've gone wrong is I've over tightened the front pinch & tops of the side dents. I'll try relaxing those tonight.

I'd love for Steve/Fedora to jump in here & offer an expert opinion on this

I'd like to see that photo in the first post un-compressed. That is not a standard formatted photo, and makes the hat look taller than it really is. I mean, Sapito's head isn't THAT shape in real life...is it? Regards! Michaelson

Well it's a wide screen pic sure, but everything in the picture looks proportionate to me

Must be my monitor then, as it's not proportional in appearance to me. Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:Must be my monitor then, as it's not proportional in appearance to me. Regards! Michaelson

That image, to me, looks like my HDTV set on Panoramic: images are proportional in the middle of the screen, but stretch away at the sides. That would explain why Mr. Molino has a bit of taper going on.., in his head.

I have done some thinking about the crown height affecting taper.
Initially, I assume the higher the crown the more 'play' you will have to deepen your center dent. This makes a lot of common sense. The higher the crown, the more you can deepen your dent and the less likely you are to work the sides of the crown inwards.

I was just about to post this when something hit me. I recently got a Penny's Marathon in auction. It is a great hat with a crown of approx. 4 1/2 inches and brim of 2 1/2. I thought the hat would seem a bit small for my face but when I put it on it looked good. Then it hit me. The crown has a very nice straight block to it! I am not sure if you can notice it in the photo's due to the angle but check out,
front view, or left side.

I think crown height is probably not as significant in the taper issue as is a good block.

The distortion we're seeing in that screen grab could be a result of the original lens used to do the shot along with a little distortion caused by the anamorphic widescreen process being converted to video.

I'm all for the 6" crown theory. When I messed with my Fed and reblocked it, bashed and reblocked again, it all came down to one thing - I couldn't get the "Indy look" I wanted, because there was not enought hat in the vertical direction... center dent never went deep enough without touching my head...

J_Weaver wrote:Well, part of me says yes, but another part says no. I think that all a 6" crown will do is make your hat 1/2" taller, I don't think it will allow you to deepen the top dent. I think more of a dome in the crown may allow you to tuck the top down deeper before tapering. But I'm no expert.

You're right, to an extent. If you give a fedora the best karate chop you can muster, the center dent will eventually roll down the sides of the hat into a taper-like existence (just like the ToD hat in the Tri-Motor scene - the hat is crumpled and mis-shaped after Willie's wake-up call, causing too much hat to roll into a taper).
If, on the other hand, crown height is increased, a deep center dent would not eat away the necessary hat sides and a tall, stovepipe-y crown can be maintained...
Should I order a custom AB, I'd probably ask for a full 6" crown, provided Steve has a block that high (IIRC he has)

Right, look at these two pictures...




Bottom pic might be distorted, don't know, but in both those pics the bash is still deep & it almost looks like the bottom of the bash is actually a long crease.

Sorry Tom, what is IIRC short for

Skippy, that's about how deep and far back I have to push in my dent on tall crown hats, and it's to keep the hat from sitting on top of my ears as it lowers the top to sit on the crown of my head. Maybe Ford was having the same problem? Regards! Michaelson

There is a crease across the top of that dent. I am surprised to see that. That means the top dent is a level plane, albeit a tilted one.

I've thought about this for a good long time. Yea, I'm going to say that if you get an unblocked fedora with a very tall crown and push the center-dent in very far inside that would help prevent taper.

But what if ALL the material shrinks?

Michaelson, the thing I'm find is, with the 5 1/2 inch open crown on my AB, I can jam a load of hat into a nice deep crease...

...but...

...I end up with very slightly tapered sides when looking head on, but the hat itself does appreciate me putting that much dent in, because it's not tall enough it seems IMHO. Hence why I'm wondering if a 6 inch crown wouldn't be better, as per the stats quoted by Swales in that letter which I think was to you, correct?

Renderking Fisk wrote:But what if ALL the material shrinks?

OK, you lost me there...

Skippy wrote:Michaelson, the thing I'm find is, with the 5 1/2 inch open crown on my AB, I can jam a load of hat into a nice deep crease...

...but...

...I end up with very slightly tapered sides when looking head on, but the hat itself does appreciate me putting that much dent in, because it's not tall enough it seems IMHO. Hence why I'm wondering if a 6 inch crown wouldn't be better, as per the stats quoted by Swales in that letter which I think was to you, correct?

I was the first one to post about the letter, yes. We've traveled the 6 inch trail many times, and what was found was that it did indeed tend to require a deeper pushed in dent to keep the hat from falling over the top of the ears, and achieved the Raiders look. That said, though, it was just to tall for most folks, and the crown height was reduced over time to about 5 3/4 inches as standard without bash. I believe Fedora has since reduced it even further to the current 5 1/2 inch open crown height. _ and Fedora were the ones that first experimented with the 6 inch crown, and _ was the first to have one made by Peter's Bros about 5 or 6 years ago. It worked on him, but he's HUGE...a weight lifter, and the extra height looked great. He's wearing it in his staff photo on the main Indygear page.
Speaking for myself, it's just to much crown for my head shape and size, and I'm well over 6 feet 1 inch in height, so it works for some, and not for others. Regards! Michaelson

viewtopic.php?t=8515&start=0&postdays=0 ... &highlight
This hat has an almost 6 inch crown height. You need that to get a deep Raiders bash and the other thing you need is an almost stovepipe block.
Look at Ford shaping his hat while sitting in the Waco. He holds the dent from the inside of the hat while he shapes the front pinch. When he first puts it on it's slightly tapered, then he pulls the brim down slightly on each side to reduce the taper. The side dents should go back almost to the center of the sides, but only at the top.

Your theory about the extra material in the center dash might prevent taper... but what happens when all the material shrinks at the same time?

Hmmm... Well I'm a dwarfish 5'7" tall, so going by what your say Michaelson, I'd end up looking like the Cat in the Hat!

Dakota - looking at that thread, how thin the felt is seems to have a influence too.

Ren - perhaps I'm confusing what I'm aim ing at here. I'm NOT suggesting a deep crown bash or a 6" open crown would prevent taper per-se.
What I'm trying to work out is, if a 5 1/2" open crown is tall enough to achieve the deep bash, without pulling in the sides & causing taper. At the moment with my AB, I'm finding it isn't.

Skippy wrote:Hmmm... Well I'm a dwarfish 5'7" tall, so going by what your say Michaelson, I'd end up looking like the Cat in the Hat!

WELLLL, the example I've used for years is 'you'd probably end up looking like a fire hydrant'. Regards! Michaelson

Skippy wrote:Sorry Tom, what is IIRC short for

If I Remember Correctly

Renderking Fisk wrote:Your theory about the extra material in the center dash might prevent taper... but what happens when all the material shrinks at the same time?

Then you get a Dorfman Pacific!



Seriously... the higher crown might not be a taper prevention. For me, much of the look is based on the depth and shape of that center dent - a high crown would, as per Skippy's theory, make possible to deep bash the crown while still having "hat wall material" left for the look.

I'd be interested to hear Fedora's perspective on all this.

As I said when Skippy and I were chatting about this, I do subscribe to the theory that the extra material up top is conducive to a deep center dent without pulling in the sides to cause taper. This seems to make sense to me, coupled with my experiences with several different hats over the years and my various attempts to emulate the Raiders bash.

Deepening the dent and drawing out the 'sides' of the hat with the stovepipe look seems to serve to lessen the perceived height of the crown. That is to say, a hat always looks 'taller' to me when it has taper and begins to take on the conical shape.

But I'm sure much of 'the look' of a hat (with regard to the crown height) is entirely relative to the wearers head / face shape, height, weight and so on.

Regards

Al

The deeper the center dent, the taller the hat has to be (or the higher it has to sit on your head). Think of it this way: the lowest the center dent can possibly be is touching the top of your head. If the dent is deep, it goes up from there.

I have two hats that look to be perfect Raiders hats to my eyes, but they are both too big for me to wear. But that is exactly what makes the shape so perfect - the height to width ratio.

So, in essence, I cannot have a perfect Raider's hat because by nature, it will be too tall to look right on me.

Remember Ford's high ears. He can wear that high crowned, deep dented fedora with it just above his ears and sorta high on his forehead and it looks perfect, and the inside of the dent is probably just touching the top of his head.

Absolutely - here are a few screen grabs to bear out the depth of the centre dent – the third shot shows how Ford’s hat sits on his head:
:






Regards

Al

Pagey wrote:That's why I went down a size. My "real size" would go down to my ears. A size lower sits snuggly a bit higher. It just seems to look more right too, apart from allowing a deep dent.

Would it make sense that Ford wore a hat which was slightly too small so that it would stay on during the filming of the action sequences?

The only thing I am confused about is usually hats which are too small create a certain amount of taper from the skull pushing out the felt at the bottom of the crown. Perhaps wearing it higher mitigates this.

An old subject, with new life. Almost skeered to get into this one.


Seems like this has two parts. First, what was the crown height of Ford's Raiders fedora, and second, how do you pull off that look on your own head.

Now, I have my own personal opinion on the original crown height of his hat, in the 7 1/4 hat. I think that block was 5 1/2 to 5 3/4 tall, with a creased crown height on the sides of 5 to 5 1/4 inches. And that would be the tallest hat in the film. The distortion that occurs when you put a 3 dimensional object on film changes the actual appearance of the hat. It can make it appear taller than it actually was. If you take any scene, and use the ribbon as the reference, that hat is not over 4 5/8 tall at the front pinch, that is when he has the camel hump style. A hat that is 5 1/2 open crown will crease down to that in the front, with humps, but the top crease does not look quite deep enough.(this may be a matter or perception) If you increase the open crown height to 5 3/4, you can get the deep crease in the top(but its appearance is affected by the softness, or floppiness of the felt), and this will give you bigger humps on the top with the same length of the front pinch. Sometimes, if you match the length of the front crease to Fords, with a 5 3/4 open crown, you get too much of the camel hump.


If we use the 6 inch open crown height as being true, for a 7 1/4 sized hat, then this means that in order to maintain the proportion of width to height, a guy that wore a 7 5/8 hat would need a hat 6 1/2 inches tall to mimic the original proportions. They do not make hat blocks that tall for dress hats. So...........one can extrapolate that folks with larger heads than 7 1/4 can never get the Indy look.


I am with Lee Keppler on the crown issue. We tend to exagerrate the dimensions, and go taller with wider brims than the original actually was.
I made myself a 6 inch crown hat awhile back, and for me, it is way too tall. 5 1/2 inches on the sides after creasing. But my head never touches that top crease, even when pulled over my ears.


Hat height is relative to the times. Back in the 50 and 60's, the shorter crown hats became in style. When I was first shopping for an Indy fedora, one of my stops was the Stetson company. Ended up buying 3 Temples and 3 Nostalgias. God, they just looked too short. I needed more crown. I discovered from talking to Hatco(Stetson) that the tallest dress crown that they made was 5 inches open crown. And, that was why the hats were too short. It if sit a 5 1/2 crown hat next to a 5 crown hat, the difference of 1/2 inch is substantial, and very noticable. If you sit it next to one with a 5 3/4 crown, the difference is monumental.

So, after a longwinded reply, I personally think Ford's Raiders fedora was between 5 1/2 and 5 3/4. And probably 5 1/2 with medium soft felt. Not what many folks think, I know, but I have to be honest about it. I think 99 per cent of us think it is taller than it was.


The last part is how to pull off that look on your own head. First of all, not many of us look like Ford. But, if your head and facial shape is like his, you would be surprised how accurate any close Indy fedora would look on you.
Face it, most will never look like Ford and his hat, but you can mimic that look to best suit your face. That is as good as you can do. I think if you use his dimensions as a guide and tweak the brim width, and crown height to suit you face the best, well, this is the key. I made a hat for a guy, sight unseen, and later he mailed me a pic of it on his head. He wore a size 7 hat, so I made the brim 2 3/4 x 2 1/2. Now, normally this would have been plenty of brim for a guy that wore a size 7 hat, as you would expect the facial shape to be on the thin side. Nope. This guy has a really wide, square face with a pointy head. It looked like he was wearing one of those stingy brimmed hats from the 60's. The first thing that came to mind was one of those little tiny clown hats, you know, way too small looking to be a real hat. I made a note on his paperwork, if he ever ordered another one, to do his brim 3 x 2 3/4. He needed the extra brim even with his smaller hat size.


So, basically, you have to buy what would suit your own facial shape, and realize, that while you can have the Indy aire about you, it is folly to expect to look just like him and his hat. Yep, there ain't no Santa Claus. Fedora

Yep. Find a hat that has an accurate brim width for your face, then adjust the proportions to the crown to make the hat itself look correct. Then look in the mirror and shriek in horror as the hat looks preposterous. Or take a crown height and match it to your head and adjust the brim width to the crown. It will not matter. You will never look like Ford without plastic surgery. And if you go that route, remember that Michael Jackson also wore a fedora and that might be an easier look to pull off...

Thanks for chipping in Steve

If you take any scene, and use the ribbon as the reference, that hat is not over 4 5/8 tall at the front pinch, that is when he has the camel hump style.

Have to admit, after spending the last week with a ruler up again the monitor for every Raiders pic I could find like a right saddo, I couldn't make that hat higher to the pinch than 3x the ribbon width

I think 99 per cent of us think it is taller than it was.

Yup. That's what I keep seeing as I stared in the mirror & anxiously glanced at various screen cap prints

Basically what I'm taking most from your post tho' Steve, is that the best thing anyone ordering a hat from you can do is send in mugshot pictures of themselves & give you an idea of what best suits them (something I didn't do, so I am probably quite lucky with how my hat turned out )


Rick wrote:

You will never look like Ford without plastic surgery. And if you go that route, remember that Michael Jackson also wore a fedora and that might be an easier look to pull off...

Easy for you to say Rick, yours & Nick's hats look fantastic on you! :evil:

Hi people Obviously this conversation has come back round to me & died off with no reply

Basically I'm in Beijing, China at the moment Yes, wearing my Adventurebilt

I move on to Ulaan Baatar via the Trans-Mongolian railway tomorrow & obviously won't be in a position to post pics of my hat till I return to London in a months time. Trust me I have LOADS tho'

I think both steve and pagey are correct here, I have two Adventurebilts and everything is the same on these hats except the crown height. one
5 3/4 and the other 5 1/2, and I pushed down the center dents on both as much as possible ( without causing any tapper ) and all you get is the different crown heights on your hats ( and both have the same dept to there center dent).

I hope that was clear.

Skippy wrote:Basically I'm in Beijing, China at the moment Yes, wearing my Adventurebilt

I move on to Ulaan Baatar via the Trans-Mongolian railway tomorrow & obviously won't be in a position to post pics of my hat till I return to London in a months time. Trust me I have LOADS tho'

Sorry for going OT, but Skippy: That sounds great! I always wanted to do thta, a ride through Mongolia in Gear!
A friend of mine is digging in Karakorum, the Khan's old capital, and I hope to join him next summer.
Great adventure you are doing there, enjoy.
Oh, and send us some gear-in-Mongolia-photos, won't you!

OK, here are my findings after wearing my AB solid for 2 weeks now. But firstly I will say this...

I believe Steve/Fedora is right about the hat looking taller on screen.
My initial suggestion of a 6 inch open crown is based on the letter from Richard Swales to Michaelson, stating 6 inches, but there again Swales has been known to quote different measurements to different people. Also, I had Steve cut my brim 2 7/8 inches - front & 2 3/4 inches - sides; as per the Swales letter dimensions & there are times I look in the mirror & wonder if the brim is too wide!

Nick/Pagey is correct IMO too, that the Raiders hat is worn high on HF's head & I think a smaller hat size would better fit me currently, as this one is almost on my ears with number 2 / 3 crew cut hair. HF had fairly long hair in Raiders tho' IMO & if I let my hair grow out that much again, my current hat (size 7 1/8 ) would fit me better (I wanted a cooler (temp. wise!) shorter hair cut for travelling! )
Thinking about it now, I wonder if HF had a shorter hair cut when he was fitted for the hat in London & then growing out his hair for the film caused the hat to have to sit higher on his head

Michaelson is right as well. Because of my short hair cut & therefore artificially larger hat size, without a deep centre bash the hat would be resting on my ears instead of just above it & on the top of my head, which is slightly pushing up the deep bash (ARGH! :evil: )

Now, getting to the point!

Looking at the pics of jpenman's hat I would have to say this. Currently I have jammed ALOT of my hat down into the bash to get it the way I want, which IMO emulates the Raiders hat. I also have a VERY tight front pinch. Again, as Rick rightly pointed out, this has caused noticable taper to the sides of the hat.
The hat itself is NOT tapered. Steve stated in another thread that taper can be judged by the back of the hat. Well mine is a complete right angle. Brim flat, the back of that hat goes straight to the sky. But the sides are being pulled in by the depth of centre bash I have. If I push out all the bashes, the hat is a stove pipe again.

Now as Steve has pointed out as well, alot of people here are leaving their AB as found on arrival in delivery. I too am noticing pictures of AB's here with the dents pushed out & people actually wearing them like that & happy!

IMO jpenman's hat (which does genuinely look very good ) does not have as tight a pinch or deep as bash as mine. I won't get into which looks exactly like the Raiders hat, as it's always going to be a matter of opinion

All I know is this...

My hat is tapered because of the depth of bash I've put in the top & I still don't think is it deep enough!

I want a deep bash. DEEP I tell you! But I also want stove pipe sides & I genuinely don't believe you can achieve both without a 5 3/4 or 6 inch open crown.
It's not a matter of what height the hat ends up, because as I've stated, I believe the height of HF hat in Raiders is the same height as Nicks hat in his pics. But then to get a deep bash & achieve the same hat height WITHOUT pulled in taper, you need more hat to shove down.

OK, long post, but it gives you people a lot to discuss until I get back in a months time


IndyJens – thanks We’re having a great time so far & trust me there will be loads of pics!

Skippy, my hat ha change from the time I first posted.

http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=6f5emq
http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=6f5evo
http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=6f5f6h
http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=6f5fk9
http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=6f5fro

Pagey, what do you think?

Thanks pagey, I can't tell you want that means to me to get your O.K. I think your right about the angles , my secound Adventurebilt has a more angle bashes to it. I have done almost everything to it except get it wet
(I'm avioding that as long as posible). I can't see any tapper on your hat. I love the way it looks in you avatar ( it's my favorite one that I have seen here at COW). I have a shot of you wearing that hat saved in my (scrapbook on enternet explorer). I wish I had a shot like that of me and lid.